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Drones and ExtraJudicial Killings

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#31    OverSword

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 05:21 PM

It's funny you get on a forum like this and continually state that you're not here to argue. Aruing your point of view is kind of the whole point, which despite your claims I notice you're doing regardless of your statement.  Really quite passive aggressive.

When I read your footer, Most people are only alive because it's illegal to shoot them... It's quite easy to see why you don't mind the questionable behaviour of our governments motivation for still being in a 10 year old undeclared war, in the top opium growing country in the world.  I'm sure that the statement of your footer applies to you by some people standards.


#32    ThePhantomFlanFlinger

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 05:29 PM

View PostOverSword, on 05 June 2012 - 05:21 PM, said:

It's funny you get on a forum like this and continually state that you're not here to argue. Aruing your point of view is kind of the whole point, which despite your claims I notice you're doing regardless of your statement.  Really quite passive aggressive.

When I read your footer, Most people are only alive because it's illegal to shoot them... It's quite easy to see why you don't mind the questionable behaviour of our governments motivation for still being in a 10 year old undeclared war, in the top opium growing country in the world.  I'm sure that the statement of your footer applies to you by some people standards.


LOLOL....Whatever makes you happy......maybe you should go out to Afghanistan and walk about with a placard showing your feelings if you feel so strongly...hell i'll even pay your airfare...

Edited by BrianPotter, 05 June 2012 - 05:29 PM.


#33    OverSword

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 05:31 PM

View PostBrianPotter, on 05 June 2012 - 05:29 PM, said:

Whatever makes you happy......maybe you should go out Afghanistan and walk about with a placard if you feel so strongly...hell i'll even pay your airfare...

I think the point I'm trying to make, aside from being against killing people remotely from half way around the planet, is that we should NOT be there :st


#34    ThePhantomFlanFlinger

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 05:35 PM

View PostOverSword, on 05 June 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

I think the point I'm trying to make, aside from being against killing people remotely from half way around the planet, is that we should NOT be there :st

Whatever makes you happy...... :tu:.... :rolleyes:


#35    OverSword

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 05:49 PM

Way to get the last word.


#36    ranrod

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 06:07 PM

Drones are a tool.  I don't know what difference does it make if the military kills someone with a cruise missile, an artillery shot or a drone.  The drone is the intersection of cheap and accurate (less collateral than artillery, as precise as a cruise missile).  All these options are remote, killing targets sight-unseen.
It is also a tool of surveillance which is an important part of the military's job.  I certainly want our military to have all the tools available to finish the job as quickly as possible.

Edited by ranrod, 05 June 2012 - 06:08 PM.


#37    OverSword

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 06:16 PM

View Postranrod, on 05 June 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

Drones are a tool.  I don't know what difference does it make if the military kills someone with a cruise missile, an artillery shot or a drone.  The drone is the intersection of cheap and accurate (less collateral than artillery, as precise as a cruise missile).  All these options are remote, killing targets sight-unseen.
It is also a tool of surveillance which is an important part of the military's job.  I certainly want our military to have all the tools available to finish the job as quickly as possible.

Like in the next 10 or 15 years I'm guessing.

Also, drones are useless as a weapon against an adversary who would truly be capable defending themselves from the might of our military.  If we were all really concerned for the safety of our troops we would insist that we bring them home from this war, since pretty much mission accomplished by now.

Also, how many intelligence opportunities are being missed by assasinating the enemies with the most information rather than capturing and tortu....errr I mean questioning them.  Oh yes but that just brings an entire new crop of legal problems for the government to deal with during what is an ilegal war.

Edited by OverSword, 05 June 2012 - 06:20 PM.


#38    ranrod

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 07:21 PM

View PostOverSword, on 05 June 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:

Like in the next 10 or 15 years I'm guessing.

Also, drones are useless as a weapon against an adversary who would truly be capable defending themselves from the might of our military.  If we were all really concerned for the safety of our troops we would insist that we bring them home from this war, since pretty much mission accomplished by now.

Also, how many intelligence opportunities are being missed by assasinating the enemies with the most information rather than capturing and tortu....errr I mean questioning them.  Oh yes but that just brings an entire new crop of legal problems for the government to deal with during what is an ilegal war.
Why you single out that tool as opposed to others?  Why not say "do not use GPS-based mortar rounds!"?  Or "no cruise missiles!"?  The use of mines (I don't think we are in the middle east), is the most controversial for me because the equipment stays dormant in the field for many many years and the damage is random.
Also, what makes the war illegal? (what's an illegal war anyway?)


#39    Babe Ruth

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 07:27 PM

Bama

On any poll, the answer depends entirely on how any given question is phrased.  So when asked about how credible or accurate the findings of the 911 Commission were, about 85% think the findings were not accurate and true.  Depends on how the question is phrased.

I appreciate your candor in at least entertaining the idea that the events of the day were staged.  It would be off topic to go into that here, but the point is that Drones & Extrajudicial Killings are the result of the GWOT, which is the result of the events of 11 September.

AND THEN

Yessir, I fully understand that your worldview is 99% a product of your religious beliefs.  And speaking of credibility, that fact greatly limits YOUR credibility in any topic in which religion is even tangentially involved.  And certainly when it comes to Extrajudicial killings, if your religion says it's OK, then by god it is OK with you.  It is not unusual to hear so many christians speak out in favor of torture and assassination when urged, and also common to hear so few of them condemn torture and extrajudicial killings.  Strange, how christians have changed since I was one.


#40    OverSword

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 07:37 PM

View Postranrod, on 05 June 2012 - 07:21 PM, said:

Why you single out that tool as opposed to others?  Why not say "do not use GPS-based mortar rounds!"?  Or "no cruise missiles!"?  The use of mines (I don't think we are in the middle east), is the most controversial for me because the equipment stays dormant in the field for many many years and the damage is random.
Also, what makes the war illegal? (what's an illegal war anyway?)

Why you single out that tool as opposed to others?

What is the title of this thread?  An ilegal war is when we have had military action in a sovreign nation for over ten years without congress declaring war.

Edited by OverSword, 05 June 2012 - 07:39 PM.


#41    ranrod

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 07:52 PM

View PostOverSword, on 05 June 2012 - 07:37 PM, said:

Why you single out that tool as opposed to others?

What is the title of this thread?  An ilegal war is when we have had military action in a sovreign nation for over ten years without congress declaring war.
So you are opposed to the drones, instead of the other tools of the military because of the title of this thread?
No formal declaration of war, but military action was approved.  Again, why is it illegal?


#42    OverSword

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 08:45 PM

I'm opposed to drones  because they make it too possible for the pilot to dissasociate himself from what he's doing.  If you are doing something like killing people you should be well aware of it.  If you can't see that there is something wrong with that do a quick google search and read about the milgram experiment.

As far as an undeclared war bein ilegal, the conditions of declaring war as defined by the constitution are so vague that it is my opinion that and undeclared war that goes on for so long should be ilegal, therefore I shall continue to refer to the current war as ilegal.  If you can cite the provision in the constitution whcih proves I'm wrong then please do so.


#43    ranrod

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 09:33 PM

View PostOverSword, on 05 June 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

I'm opposed to drones  because they make it too possible for the pilot to dissasociate himself from what he's doing.  If you are doing something like killing people you should be well aware of it.  If you can't see that there is something wrong with that do a quick google search and read about the milgram experiment.
In the other examples I gave such as cruise missiles, land mines, mortar fire, and artillery use, you also don't see your enemies and are disassociated from the act of killing.  Also, when talking about war, disassociating soldiers from the acts they perform is highly coveted.  Troops are specifically trained to accomplish this.  If you're at war, you don't want your side being afraid to pull the trigger.

About the illegality of the war:
http://www.ca1.uscou...03-1266-01A.pdf
A three judge panel found that the president (who was given authority by congress), had the right to conduct the operation.


[edit]


#44    OverSword

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 09:45 PM

Mortar fire and artillery requires a person to be there to physically fire that weapon.  Landmines are mainly defensive in nature, and I'm not sure we use them (I'm guessing not in afghanistan) Are we using cruise missiles at over a million a pop?  No.

I'm not against weapon systems, except possibly nukes, but obviously if you can't shoot down a drone you don't really have a military, so just who are we fighting with our huge powerful army? We've got our army over there fighting their version of hillbillies, rednecks, and good ol boys.  What kind of war is that?

That document you posted is about Iraq.  I asked you to cite the provisions of war listed in the constitution.  Here's a hint, don't bother it is purposfully vague.


#45    Stellar

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 10:07 PM

Quote

Mortar fire and artillery requires a person to be there to physically fire that weapon.


Yes and no. The person physically firing the mortar or (mainly) artillery is firing at a grid coordinate. He has usually no visibility of what he's shooting at. Much more dissociated than the UCAV pilot who watches the results on a TV screen.

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