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Roswell: Two Crashes, Not One

roswell coverup

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#61    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 05:02 AM

And this In Search Of episode was also the first time that Ray Fowler's friend Arthur Stancil went on TV about the 1953 UFO crash, although he didn't want his identity revealed.

Edited by TheMacGuffin, 09 August 2012 - 05:02 AM.


#62    psyche101

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 05:19 AM

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 09 August 2012 - 04:33 AM, said:

This was the In Search Of episode from 1980, where Jesse Marcel first appeared on national TV.  That was the old show hosted by Leonard Nimoy, and was very popular at the time.  Millions of people would never had heard of Roswell at all if not for this show.  I'm certain that I never heard of it before this show was broadcast, or anything like it.



Jesse Marcel stated at this time that he was told by Gen. Ramey to keep his mouth shut, which he did for 30 years.  I get the impression that it was a story he really wanted to tell, though.

He described the debris field as extensive and that there were many small pieces of the "tinfoil" that couldn't be burned, bent or dented.  That's what really got the whole Roswell story started.



Except for perhaps the magazines, such as the below from May 1948.


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Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#63    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 05:31 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 09 August 2012 - 05:19 AM, said:

Except for perhaps the magazines, such as the below from May 1948.


Explaining UFOs as "weather balloons" was already a cliche decades ago, and not taken very seriously.  It was often said tongue-in-cheek, in fact.  Marcel was insistent that the material he picked up was totally unlike a balloon, and held the Project Mogul explanation in disdain.

Of course, there is no record that he ever said anything about alien bodies or another crash site, but neither is there any record of the reports he must have filed.  There is no record of anyone ever filing any reports on the Roswell Incident, although we know that Marcel wrote one, and that Blanchard and Ramey must also have filed something in writing.  No none has ever seen the slightest hint of those, however, at least not in the public domain.

I think that if those written records justified the Project Mogul explanation--or any conventional explanation--the Air Force would have been happy to declassify them a long time ago.  I don't believe for a minute that Marcel's report stated that he found balloon wreckage.


#64    Hawkin

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 02:24 AM

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 09 August 2012 - 05:31 AM, said:

Explaining UFOs as "weather balloons" was already a cliche decades ago, and not taken very seriously.  It was often said tongue-in-cheek, in fact.  Marcel was insistent that the material he picked up was totally unlike a balloon, and held the Project Mogul explanation in disdain.

Of course, there is no record that he ever said anything about alien bodies or another crash site, but neither is there any record of the reports he must have filed.  There is no record of anyone ever filing any reports on the Roswell Incident, although we know that Marcel wrote one, and that Blanchard and Ramey must also have filed something in writing.  No none has ever seen the slightest hint of those, however, at least not in the public domain.

I think that if those written records justified the Project Mogul explanation--or any conventional explanation--the Air Force would have been happy to declassify them a long time ago.  I don't believe for a minute that Marcel's report stated that he found balloon wreckage.

Are there any records of other Mogul type ballons going down in the country or other parts of the world around that time period?

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#65    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 03:08 AM

View PostRyegrog, on 10 August 2012 - 02:24 AM, said:

Are there any records of other Mogul type ballons going down in the country or other parts of the world around that time period?

Before Roswell, something was going on at White Sands.


New Mexicans Add To Mystery Reports
  • Source: El Paso Times
    Date: Saturday, June 28, 1947, p. 1
"Mysterious "falling objects" reported near Tularosa and Eagle, New Mexico Friday (June 27, 1947) had not been located or identified late Friday night. There were no rockets fired from the White Sands Proving Ground Friday.


There was much conjecture as to whether the falling objects had any relation to the mysterious flying discs which had been variously reported seen recently from Oregon to Oklahoma.

Lt. Col. Harold R. Turner, commanding officer at White Sands, said that he had received reports that a track walker said he had seen a falling object near Eagle, New Mexico and an Army captain flying his own plane reported seeing an object falling from the skies near Tularosa. Search parties were sent out from White Sands in attempts to locate the objects or secure additional information."

http://kenny.anomaly...g/47elpaso.html


#66    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 03:12 AM

Then there were a whole bunch of reports like these in 1947, with our friend weather officer Irving Newton identifying them as conventional object.  He was the very same officer called in by Gen. Ramey to identify the Roswell debris for the reporters in his office--more box kites, weather balloons and whatnot, almost like they kept replaying Roswell again and again:




"A third similar box-like gadget covered with silver foil was found Tuesday afternoon on a farm near South Bloomfield.

Last Saturday, the news was flashed throughout the nation that the first such contraption had been found on the farm of Sherman Campbell on the Westfall road in Pickaway county eight miles south of Circleville.

The second such find was reported to Sheriff Charles Radcliff Tuesday afternoon by David C. Heffner, who said he discovered it on a line fence on his farm on the old Tarlton road four and one half miles east of Circleville. Mr. Heffner’s post office address is Route 1, Stoutsville.

The gadgets found by Mr. Campbell and Mr. Heffner were brought to the Circleville Herald. Each is constructed of a light wood frame. Only a remnant of the thin rubber balloon remained attached to the Campbell find, but the other contraption discovered on the Heffner farm includes most of the remains of the balloon which must have measured more than 15 feet in diameter when it was inflated. That device bears the markings: “ML 387, B-AP. Mfg. By Chase.”

Followed in the skies by radar the strange gadgets found near Circleville would have – when whirling in the air – appeared like a “flying saucer.”

As to the box-like object reported in New Mexico Tuesday night, identification as a bit of of “meteorological equipment” was made by Warrant Officer Irving Newton, Stetsonville, Wis., an official of the Eighth Army headquarters weather department.

The Fort Worth office said the “disc” was only a bit of equipment used by Army and weather bureau officials.

An amplyfing statement by public relations officer capt. G. F. Haist said:
“Experts have identified the equipment as a box kite – or a “rawin high altitude sounding device” used by meteorologists.”

The original announcement of the discovery of a so-called “flying disc” came from the Foster ranch near Corona, N.M. An employee on the ranch found the balloon.
An Air Corps public relations officer at Roswell, N.M., Lt. Warren Haught, electrified the country with his report of finding a “disc,” but a few hours later the report blew up with the Fort Worth identification.

Brig. Gen. Roger Ramey, commanding general of the Eight Air Force field, had insisted the “disc” evidently was nothing other than a weather or radar instrument of some sort.

For a time officers planned to bring the “disc” to Wright Field, Dayton, O., by plane. Its identification as remnants of a weather balloon cancelled those plans."

http://kenny.anomaly...outh_Bloomfield


#67    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 03:16 AM

In fact, there were a whole bunch of these crashes in 1947, too many to list here, with the military very eager to identify them as balloons and other conventional objects.  I think they were trying to defuse public interest in the UFO wave, which they did again and again in the waves of the 1950s and 1960s.

http://kenny.anomaly...rg/47index.html

I have reason to believe that the original UFO crash story was in some was connected with White Sands.


#68    psyche101

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 03:19 AM

View PostRyegrog, on 10 August 2012 - 02:24 AM, said:

Are there any records of other Mogul type ballons going down in the country or other parts of the world around that time period?

4 in the 48 hour time frame surrounding the Roswell incident. I quoted them back a few pages.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#69    psyche101

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 03:20 AM

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 09 August 2012 - 05:31 AM, said:

Explaining UFOs as "weather balloons" was already a cliche decades ago, and not taken very seriously.  It was often said tongue-in-cheek, in fact.  Marcel was insistent that the material he picked up was totally unlike a balloon, and held the Project Mogul explanation in disdain.

Of course, there is no record that he ever said anything about alien bodies or another crash site, but neither is there any record of the reports he must have filed.  There is no record of anyone ever filing any reports on the Roswell Incident, although we know that Marcel wrote one, and that Blanchard and Ramey must also have filed something in writing.  No none has ever seen the slightest hint of those, however, at least not in the public domain.

I think that if those written records justified the Project Mogul explanation--or any conventional explanation--the Air Force would have been happy to declassify them a long time ago.  I don't believe for a minute that Marcel's report stated that he found balloon wreckage.



I doubt it too, he was adamant that he was showing Irving Newton a piece of flying saucer, but Newton disagreed strongly.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#70    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 03:25 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 10 August 2012 - 03:20 AM, said:

I doubt it too, he was adamant that he was showing Irving Newton a piece of flying saucer, but Newton disagreed strongly.

Newton's job seems to have been to help demonstrate to the public and media that all these UFO reports were caused by weather balloons, kites and so on, as I noted above.


#71    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 03:27 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 10 August 2012 - 03:19 AM, said:

4 in the 48 hour time frame surrounding the Roswell incident. I quoted them back a few pages.

They weren't necessarily Project Mogul balloons, since that program was just beginning in the summer of 1947.


#72    psyche101

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 03:35 AM

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 10 August 2012 - 03:25 AM, said:

Newton's job seems to have been to help demonstrate to the public and media that all these UFO reports were caused by weather balloons, kites and so on, as I noted above.

I think the case according to his signed affidavit is pretty cut and dry though. Not only that, but Marcel seems to have been the only person on that room who was convinced, Newton siad "If that is not a RAWIN, I'll eat it".

I can't say I have seen Newton feature in any other debunks, what other cases did he get involved in?

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#73    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 03:40 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 10 August 2012 - 03:35 AM, said:

I can't say I have seen Newton feature in any other debunks, what other cases did he get involved in?

The ones I mentioned in #66, which sound very similar to the story they gave out after the Roswell press release.  I do think they were trying hard to put the lid on this 1947 UFO wave, at least as far as the public and media were concerned.

In that case, they had Newton located in Wisconsin for some reason, not Ft. Worth, Texas.  That is quite a long distance away, in fact, about 1,000 miles away, which means Mr. Newton was getting around quite a bit during the summer of 1947.

Edited by TheMacGuffin, 10 August 2012 - 03:53 AM.


#74    psyche101

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 04:18 AM

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 10 August 2012 - 03:40 AM, said:

The ones I mentioned in #66, which sound very similar to the story they gave out after the Roswell press release.  I do think they were trying hard to put the lid on this 1947 UFO wave, at least as far as the public and media were concerned.

In that case, they had Newton located in Wisconsin for some reason, not Ft. Worth, Texas.  That is quite a long distance away, in fact, about 1,000 miles away, which means Mr. Newton was getting around quite a bit during the summer of 1947.


But those are genuine balloon crashes, surely they are not touted as possible saucer crashes? I posted a picture of the Pickaway debris, that is without doubt a RAWIN device held up by the finder.

LINK - What Newton is saying these days

Posted Image

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#75    psyche101

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 04:21 AM

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 10 August 2012 - 03:27 AM, said:

They weren't necessarily Project Mogul balloons, since that program was just beginning in the summer of 1947.

Rygrog was just after Mogul-type though? But still in the same time frame - 48 hours of the incident.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.






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