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Military Observing US cities with drones


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#46    MichaelW

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 12:49 AM

View PostOverSword, on 12 December 2012 - 04:00 PM, said:

The drones you're reffering to are a far cry from the military drones (which in the USA it was ilegal for them to use against civilians until recently) The drones your referring to are useful life saving tools that more resemble a model plane than a military class radio controled dealer of death.

And yet many militaries around the world use small drones for immediate battlefield reconnaissance and such. And I meant that you could use those larger ones for such purposes, such as S&R, maritime surveillance or even geographical surveying (because satellites can only give so much of a picture).

Fact is, those drones that the military are being accused of using are harmless anyway. They're unarmed. Most drones in service are.

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#47    DieChecker

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 12:54 AM

View PostOverSword, on 12 December 2012 - 10:28 PM, said:

I think I've figured you out as far as privacy issues go:
You wife won't listen to you.  Your kids won't listen to you.  You are all thrilled that at last someone is listening to you!!
That is not an answer either... ???

I asked an honest question and you are giving me bullsh*t answers.

View PostDieChecker, on 11 December 2012 - 10:20 PM, said:

What exactly do you need privacy For? What does it Add to your life? Why are you greedy for it?

If you don't know, or can't articulate it, just say so.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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#48    Babe Ruth

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 02:29 PM

View PostStellar, on 12 December 2012 - 11:36 PM, said:

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Isnt that a kind if catch 22 argument? You claim the security is useless because they havent stopped any terrorist attacks... when you're shown terrorist attacks that they've stopped, you claim that its all lies perpetrated by the media in order to scare you into believing that the security is necessary, and its necessary to scare you into believing that the security is necessary because the security hasnt stopped any terrorist attacks... How is anyone supposed to argue with that?

I did not say security is useless, I said that to a very large extent it is an illusion.

To get into more detail would be going off topic, but in short, our security apparatus TODAY is based entirely upon the events of 11 September, which many understand to have been a false flag event.  Staged events.

So if we have a security system based upon deception and fraud, what does that say about our rational processes?


#49    Capt Amerika

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 02:52 PM

I would highly recommend that anyone who is bothered by the concept of drones flying over your home spying on you go to the FAA website and do some research.
The ONLY drones being flown in or around cities are the little ones that your kids could get at a hobby store.
The FAA has restricted Global Hawk and Predator flights to restricted Airspace only, they will not allow them in the airspace with other aircraft until they are deemed safe enough and they are no where near that.
No drones flying over the US are Armed with weapons.
The ONLY large drones being flown in the US are the ones DHS uses on the borders and the ones flown by the military for training and they are flown in restricted airspace and have no weapon capability.
Its all right there on their website.
The only place you will find these things being mentioned as weaponized freedom stealing metal beasts are on the conspiracy sites where tin foil hat folks like Alex Jones like to take one thing and twist it into something demonic for his own benefit.
I'll take the local police using a RC helicopter to take pictures and survey a crime in progress at the cost to me of $100 a day as compared to a manned helicopter with a usage cost of $10,000 a day.
Same results just cheaper.
and if someone were to ever get lost in the woods while hiking etc, i would love to have two or three of these up looking for them all while keeping the first responders safe from harmful environments until they were found.


#50    Capt Amerika

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 03:06 PM

View PostJinxdom, on 12 December 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

Why do you need privacy outside of your home? As long as I am free to do as I please I could careless about how many camera's are around the city as long as it's not in my home. The difference between a drone and helicopter is nil. Personally if one was to crash in my yard I'd pick the drone because it would be easier to clean-up and the pilot wouldn't die. Not to mention the other uses. People should be more worried about changing our laws to allow us more freedom then worrying about what they do is on camera.

Not once has the police successfully entered my house without just cause.

I agree with most of your post.
I just would like to know that without probable cause or suspicion of a crime that they are not following me around.
Something very Orwellian about having the Government spy on its citizens with no cause.
As long as the drone remains parked until a warrant is being served, or a raid is being conducted i am fine with them.
I do not however believe a free nation should be subject ot cameras monitoring your every move.
Freedom doesnt end at my front door, Freedom is our way of life as a whole.
I am not willing to sacrifice my freedom to the government just to have them ensure my security.
BL: Pro Drones as long as they are used responsibly and in a manner that protects the freedoms of the citizens and protects the people who otherwise would have been in harms way.
Against Cameras and unprovoked monitoring just because they have the means.


#51    Michelle

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 03:56 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 11 December 2012 - 10:20 PM, said:

What exactly do you need privacy For? What does it Add to your life? Why are you greedy for it?

I thought the thread was about loss of privacy due to drones flying over US cities. Is that not what it is about?

If we want to get nekkid in our own back yard, where no one would be able to see us, we don't want some drone to be flying overhead taking pictures of the general area. If a man wants to go behind the boulders or a bush and take a piss, instead of tracking dirt into the house, fine. If we wanted to live in a place where neighbors could see every move we make we would live in one of those neighborhoods with the houses crammed together without any sense of privacy.

I know people that live in houses, that are mostly glass, in the woods and they feel no need for window coverings. It seems creepy to me that someone could be playing with this new little toy filming them in the bathtub/shower or in the privacy of their bedroom. The same with skyscrapers in big cities. Whereas someone would have to have a telescope to see in their windows this little thing can have a grand time legally being a voyeur.

It's not that anyone is doing anything inherently wrong...it's that we don't want to be watched in our everyday lives. It would no doubt be misused.

Edited by Michelle, 13 December 2012 - 04:03 PM.


#52    OverSword

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:34 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 13 December 2012 - 12:54 AM, said:

That is not an answer either... ???

I asked an honest question and you are giving me bullsh*t answers.



If you don't know, or can't articulate it, just say so.
Fair enough, sorry you didn't like my BS answer, I thought it was pretty funny.
The best way I can explain it is I'm a small government type and don't believe that the government or any other authority has the right to document what I'm doing outside of a legitimate warranted legal investigation, and part of my right to and expection of privacy is that an explanation as to why I want privacy is not required.  The onus for wanting to observe and record private citizens is on the observer not the observed, so in other words I dont need a reason.  I already have my picture taken many times a day walking into my office, riding the bus downtown, withdrawing funds from the ATM etc.  I definetly don't want or need the military watching and recording my movements.  I don't know what they would do with this information or why they would be gathering it.  I don't trust people or entities with power over me and nobody should.  They are the ones that should be watched documented and regulated, not the private individuals of our nation.  There is also the fact that to operate any vehicle it costs money.  How does the military get money?  From we the people and no other way.  Don't waste my ****g money, I'm sick of it.  Do you feel these aren't good enough reasons and I should just be happy to live in thier little fish bowl, my every move potentially open to scrutiny of lord only knows who?

I answered as best I could, now you go ahaed and tell me why you feel there is a need for the military to keep tabs on you.


#53    Yes_Man

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:25 PM

View PostMichelle, on 13 December 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

If we want to get nekkid in our own back yard, where no one would be able to see us, we don't want some drone to be flying overhead taking pictures of the general area. If a man wants to go behind the boulders or a bush and take a piss, instead of tracking dirt into the house, fine. If we wanted to live in a place where neighbors could see every move we make we would live in one of those neighborhoods with the houses crammed together without any sense of privacy.

I know people that live in houses, that are mostly glass, in the woods and they feel no need for window coverings. It seems creepy to me that someone could be playing with this new little toy filming them in the bathtub/shower or in the privacy of their bedroom. The same with skyscrapers in big cities. Whereas someone would have to have a telescope to see in their windows this little thing can have a grand time legally being a voyeur.

It's not that anyone is doing anything inherently wrong...it's that we don't want to be watched in our everyday lives. It would no doubt be misused.
Oversword is on about when walking outside in public areas like walking to shops or going around in car. If he does not want anyone know what he is doing then suspicion is growing


#54    Yes_Man

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:27 PM

View PostOverSword, on 13 December 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

Fair enough, sorry you didn't like my BS answer, I thought it was pretty funny.
The best way I can explain it is I'm a small government type and don't believe that the government or any other authority has the right to document what I'm doing outside of a legitimate warranted legal investigation, and part of my right to and expection of privacy is that an explanation as to why I want privacy is not required.  The onus for wanting to observe and record private citizens is on the observer not the observed, so in other words I dont need a reason.  I already have my picture taken many times a day walking into my office, riding the bus downtown, withdrawing funds from the ATM etc.  I definetly don't want or need the military watching and recording my movements.  I don't know what they would do with this information or why they would be gathering it.  I don't trust people or entities with power over me and nobody should.  They are the ones that should be watched documented and regulated, not the private individuals of our nation.  There is also the fact that to operate any vehicle it costs money.  How does the military get money?  From we the people and no other way.  Don't waste my ****g money, I'm sick of it.  Do you feel these aren't good enough reasons and I should just be happy to live in thier little fish bowl, my every move potentially open to scrutiny of lord only knows who?

I answered as best I could, now you go ahaed and tell me why you feel there is a need for the military to keep tabs on you.
Why would the military be wasting millions of dollars just on you?


#55    Michelle

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:34 PM

View PostThe New Richard Nixon, on 13 December 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

Oversword is on about when walking outside in public areas like walking to shops or going around in car. If he does not want anyone know what he is doing then suspicion is growing

Not really...

That is a perfect example of how something like this can be abused. If this is all it takes to put someone under suspicion I may as well be put on that list too, because I feel the same way.


#56    Yes_Man

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 10:39 PM

View PostMichelle, on 13 December 2012 - 06:34 PM, said:

Not really...

That is a perfect example of how something like this can be abused. If this is all it takes to put someone under suspicion I may as well be put on that list too, because I feel the same way.
but why are you hiding? done something wrong? are you afraid?


#57    Stellar

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 10:49 PM

Quote

but why are you hiding? done something wrong? are you afraid?


You dont understand that someone might just not want to be watched 24/7?

Your line of logic can be used to justify anything. Lets start confining people to their homes whenever they're not working. You'll be safer that way. What? You want to go to the park? Why? To meet a terrorist?

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#58    DieChecker

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:13 AM

View PostMichelle, on 13 December 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

If we want to get nekkid in our own back yard, where no one would be able to see us, we don't want some drone to be flying overhead taking pictures of the general area. If a man wants to go behind the boulders or a bush and take a piss, instead of tracking dirt into the house, fine. If we wanted to live in a place where neighbors could see every move we make we would live in one of those neighborhoods with the houses crammed together without any sense of privacy.

I know people that live in houses, that are mostly glass, in the woods and they feel no need for window coverings. It seems creepy to me that someone could be playing with this new little toy filming them in the bathtub/shower or in the privacy of their bedroom. The same with skyscrapers in big cities. Whereas someone would have to have a telescope to see in their windows this little thing can have a grand time legally being a voyeur.

It's not that anyone is doing anything inherently wrong...it's that we don't want to be watched in our everyday lives. It would no doubt be misused.
AFAIK, these are not hover capably drones, they are small unmanned planes. What you are fearing could be done by any of the tens of thousands of small planes, and helicopters, that fly over every day. The chance of being watched already exists and these drones probably only add to that to the order of 2 or 3%.

Not sure that a valuable governement bit of property like a drone would be used to go out to random locations to video random people doing random things. Seems very unlikely. How many police helicopters just fly out to the country to try to film nekkid people in their backyards??

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#59    The Silver Thong

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:22 AM

Might as well be the brown shirts walking around in the 30`s in Germany.  Ya that was cool.

Sittin back drinkin beer watchin the world take it's course.


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#60    DieChecker

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 05:31 AM

View PostOverSword, on 13 December 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

The best way I can explain it is I'm a small government type and don't believe that the government or any other authority has the right to document what I'm doing outside of a legitimate warranted legal investigation, and part of my right to and expection of privacy is that an explanation as to why I want privacy is not required.  
I can understand that.

Quote

The onus for wanting to observe and record private citizens is on the observer not the observed, so in other words I dont need a reason.  I already have my picture taken many times a day walking into my office, riding the bus downtown, withdrawing funds from the ATM etc.  I definetly don't want or need the military watching and recording my movements.
But, do you agree with the reasoning behind the cameras at the ATM, the bus and the entrances to buildings? Aren't the drones just mobile platforms performing the same purpose?

Is it simply their mobile nature that is the issue? Or do you think that ATMs should be blind, buses should be blind and building entrances should be blind?

Quote

Don't waste my ****g money, I'm sick of it.  
I don't think of it as wasted. These drones could track criminals, recon police activitles, help locate illegals, and monitor other activities that will greatly assist police and other security forces with their activities.

If you fear the police and homeland security, then you've got bigger fish anyway.

Quote

Do you feel these aren't good enough reasons and I should just be happy to live in thier little fish bowl, my every move potentially open to scrutiny of lord only knows who?
I feel that the fishbowl is not so little. I feel that 99.99% of your activities are going to go unnoticed and undocumented. Maybe you'd see a drone once every three or four months. I don't think that is too much to ask for the possible benefits that are possible it they are used right.

Quote

I answered as best I could, now you go ahaed and tell me why you feel there is a need for the military to keep tabs on you.
The military, as defined by the Constitution is there to defend the homeland, right? So there is a defense reason for the drones to exist. And there is a need for training for the drones. And how are the citizens to tell the military drones from the police or homeland security drones... Which also would have valid reasons to be flying around?

As I said earlier there is no reason for the military to keep tabs on random people in random places, at random times. Their budget of money and time is going to require justification as to the use of these assets. Joe Average is never going to be targeted. Julio Illegal might, and Johnny Crimnal might, and Fred the drug dealer might, but not Joe Normal. There are 300,000,000+ people in the USA and like, what 150 drones?? How are the drones going to each get around to spying on two million people each. That is like one for the entire state of Oregon.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker




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