214 replies to this topic

[David Henson]

freetoroam, on 05 February 2013 - 09:06 PM, said:

So in todays society are there no gay muslims?  or have none yet not dare come out of the closet?

I don't know. I would be surprised if there were none but I wouldn't be surprised if none had come out of the closet. The most likely possibility is that there are some who either are still in the closet or interpret the Qur'an to suit their needs or don't adhere strictly to it etc. The same as Christianity or Judaism.

[shadowhive]

freetoroam, on 05 February 2013 - 09:06 PM, said:

So in todays society are there no gay muslims?  or have none yet not dare come out of the closet?

There are ones that are out. And, like Christian churches, there mosques that are accepting and there's people that teach the koran in an inclusive way. Admittedly there's not as many as christians and they face more persecution from muslim groups than christian ones do but they are out there.

[shadowhive]

I think christians really need to grow up an start looking outside the bible and the real world.

The bible is not always right and it was written at a time when people were woefully uninformed about gay people and their relationships. As such chritians need to look at the world now (which isn't the world of the bible) and loo at gay people around them. Are their relationships less loving? Are their families? They should stop treating people lesser simply because the bible says so.

Of course christians will say 'the bible says so so we have to' but to that I say, no you don't. First you don't have to do anything the bible says. You're a person and you decide to do for yourself. Saying you have to do something (or not) because a book says so is simply an attempt to diminish responsibilty or so you have a conveinient excuse to do it. Second christians already don't follow the bible to the letter. Parts have already been discounted and I don't see why those parts (which only mention it in passing and could be out of context to begin with) shouldn't be discounted to.

To follow on from that take shellfish. In the bible you're not meant to eat shellfish. Why? At the time of the bible shellfish coudn't be preserved well and it could become rotten very fast meaning you could become sick. Therefore not eating shellfish was sensible. Flahforward to now. We know that happens to shellfish and we've managed to combat it. Now we can preserve shellfish easily and so eat it safely. Because of that you'll find very few christians folowing the not eating shellfish law because it's 'no longer relevent'. The odd thing is it's in the same batch as dozens of other laws, equally considered no longer relevent. However one law among them is considered relevent and that's the gay one. Puzzling considering how few people follow the others.

As to the book itself, I'm glad it's there, but it's not something I'd get. I tired long ago of christianity (and religion in general) and the changes within won't reverse that. It's still the ame tired, old story, with the same 'god is loving but also cruel' god at the heart of it.

[Paranoid Android]

David Henson, on 05 February 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:

I don't want to seek those websites out because I know that the sentiment isn't correct. As a former practicing homosexual, meaning I am homosexual but no longer practice or engage in homosexual activity due to my beliefs, I can say that I wouldn't be displeased if it were true, but it isn't. It is, I think, a growing attempt to influence the consensus of the uninformed.

Wow, not everyone has the courage to step up and say something like that.  If that is the decision you have made, I say good on ya, keep it up.  It's refreshing to see that a person's faith can still mean so much to them that they would give up so much to retain it.  The popular media try and tell us that people like you don't exist, it's good to see the popular media wrong again

[Zaphod222]

David Henson, on 05 February 2013 - 07:57 PM, said:

I've published online a few different versions of the Qur'an and I can safely say that it is against homosexuality.

Understatement of the day?
The punishment for homosexuality under Shariah law is DEATH. That is a whole different ballgame than the most firebrand christian nutcase teacher can come up with.

Remember when Ahmedinejad visit the US and bragged that there are no homosexuals in Iran? Someone reporter took him up on that, and Ahmedinejads response was "if you know any, give me their addresses". Of course, they would have a short half-life.

So again, bashing the bible is pathetic. You want to take on a real issue? Publish a homo Koran.

[Paranoid Android]

shadowhive, on 06 February 2013 - 12:38 AM, said:

To follow on from that take shellfish. In the bible you're not meant to eat shellfish. Why? At the time of the bible shellfish coudn't be preserved well and it could become rotten very fast meaning you could become sick. Therefore not eating shellfish was sensible. Flahforward to now. We know that happens to shellfish and we've managed to combat it. Now we can preserve shellfish easily and so eat it safely. Because of that you'll find very few christians folowing the not eating shellfish law because it's 'no longer relevent'. The odd thing is it's in the same batch as dozens of other laws, equally considered no longer relevent. However one law among them is considered relevent and that's the gay one. Puzzling considering how few people follow the others.

Not really that puzzling if you've ever actually read the Bible:

Mar 7:17  And when he (Jesus) had entered the house and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable.
Mar 7:18  And he said to them, "Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him,
Mar 7:19  since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?" (Thus he declared all foods clean.)
Mar 7:20  And he said, "What comes out of a person is what defiles him.
Mar 7:21  For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery,
Mar 7:22  coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness.
Mar 7:23  All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person."

The healthy eating laws of Leviticus 11 were partly a health law as you say, but they also played the part of establishing the Hebrew people as a nation distinct from the rest.  Different in the way it treated simple things such as eating.  Jesus fulfilled this Law, he moved the posts from a physical law to something greater.  Now whenever you open your mouth to speak, consider your words, for this is what makes you unclean (that section in red quoted above, that's not my commentary, that's the words of the Bible).

This is why Christians eat shellfish and pork (I personally don't eat shellfish considering I am severely allergic to them and will need to go to hospital if I do).  But I wanted to clear up that misunderstanding you have about why Christians today eat foods that the Hebrews determined to be unclean.

~ Regards,

Edited by Paranoid Android, 06 February 2013 - 01:59 AM.

[Zaphod222]

shadowhive, on 06 February 2013 - 12:26 AM, said:

There are ones that are out. And, like Christian churches, there mosques that are accepting and there's people that teach the koran in an inclusive way. Admittedly there's not as many as christians and they face more persecution from muslim groups than christian ones do but they are out there.

Out where? You can probably find a couple in a Western country, where they are protected under Western law.
Do show us one mosque that teaches that acceptance for homosexuals in any country that has islamic laws. I am not holding my breath, because that will be a long wait...

[Everdred]

Frank Merton, on 05 February 2013 - 06:50 AM, said:

I think anyone with an open mind going out to the internet to see the discussions by pro-gay web sites of the texts usually quoted as anti-homosexual can see that the biases against both gays and witches were introduced via questionable translations and some cases and by stupid interpretations in others.

The ancient world, including the Hebrews, had no concept of homosexuality as such.  They condemned temple prostitution, which sometimes had a homosexual component in the offerings, and some Bible authors (Paul comes to mind) were clearly uncomfortable about their own sexuality.  Pre-scientific societies tend to recognize the existence of transsexuals but not of the more ordinary homosexual who typically is able to hide his or her inclinations.

The ancient world didn't have a concept of homosexuality because they didn't have the concept of sexual orientation.  For them it was all about the sexual acts.  The Bible specifically condemns homosexual intercourse.  In fact it's more strict than some other ancient cultures as it condemns both the active and passive role in a homosexual act.  Contrast that to Greco-Roman society, for example, in which being the active partner in homosexual intercourse was acceptable, but being the passive partner was condemned.

[shadowhive]

Paranoid Android, on 06 February 2013 - 01:48 AM, said:

Wow, not everyone has the courage to step up and say something like that.  If that is the decision you have made, I say good on ya, keep it up.  It's refreshing to see that a person's faith can still mean so much to them that they would give up so much to retain it.  The popular media try and tell us that people like you don't exist, it's good to see the popular media wrong again

It's sad that to see you happy that someone denies themselves the possibility of love. Not surprising, just sad and disgusting.

The fact that people like him can be so manipulated by belief is absolutely appaling.Yet what do you do? Praise him. Demanding people give up their chances of love is cruel and twisted.

It's amazing that giving up your humanity is something worthy of praise to you.

Edited by shadowhive, 06 February 2013 - 03:19 AM.

[shadowhive]

Zaphod222, on 06 February 2013 - 02:01 AM, said:

Out where? You can probably find a couple in a Western country, where they are protected under Western law.
Do show us one mosque that teaches that acceptance for homosexuals in any country that has islamic laws. I am not holding my breath, because that will be a long wait...

You're right of course. We can but hope they'll be more progressive, but I won't hold my breath

Edited by shadowhive, 06 February 2013 - 03:18 AM.

[Paranoid Android]

shadowhive, on 06 February 2013 - 03:10 AM, said:

It's sad that to see you happy that someone denies themselves the possibility of love. Not surprising, just sad and disgusting.

The fact that people like him can be so manipulated by belief is absolutely appaling.Yet what do you do? Praise him. Demanding people give up their chances of love is cruel and twisted.

What I'm happy about is that he's following what he believes and has the courage to say it online where any heckler can get to him.  If he believed that homosexual activity was acceptable and he posted that, I'd be happy that he is following what he believes (even though I may disagree, it doesn't mean I won't accept his choice).  Put it another way, if a gay person went onto a Christian forum and stated that this was who they were and that's that, I'd probably praise them too - congratulations on having the strength to stand up and follow your beliefs, even if it leads to hecklers.

After all this time, you still have no idea of who I am.  Can't get past that preconception.  That is what is truly sad.  It's his choice how he lives his life, and you blame me for that too.

Edited by Paranoid Android, 06 February 2013 - 03:23 AM.

[shadowhive]

Paranoid Android, on 06 February 2013 - 03:21 AM, said:

What I'm happy about is that he's following what he believes and has the courage to say it online where any heckler can get to him.  If he believed that homosexual activity was acceptable and he posted that, I'd be happy that he is following what he believes (even though I may disagree, it doesn't mean I won't accept his choice).  Put it another way, if a gay person went onto a Christian forum and stated that this was who they were and that's that, I'd probably praise them too - congratulations on having the strength to stand up and follow your beliefs, even if it leads to hecklers.

After all this time, you still have no idea of who I am.  Can't get past that preconception.  That is what is truly sad.  It's his choice how he lives his life, and you blame me for that too.

What I find sad is how your belief, your faith manipulates people in this way. It's disgusting, it truly is. The preconception with sexuality is entirely your religions and it's something that should be thrown in the garbage for it. It does nothing but harm people and this is the exact type of insidious harm it does by brainwashing people. But no it's ok.

I'm not going to praise people for following what they believe if what they believe is wrong. Take a terrorist that truly believes they are doing god's work by murdering people. Should they be praised? After all, they're following what they believe too.

I think I have a good grasp of who you are, and what your belief lets you get away with, as long as it's done in clever enough doublespeak.

It's not courageous to throw away your humanity because the bible says so. Quite the opposite.

And to add:
The popular media doesn't show people like him for a reason. You know why? Because it becomes an epxectation on all of us. If one gay person an be 'cured' then let's cure em all! That's the thinking that would result and it would set back rights even further.

Edited by shadowhive, 06 February 2013 - 03:35 AM.

[Paranoid Android]

shadowhive, on 06 February 2013 - 03:30 AM, said:

What I find sad is how your belief, your faith manipulates people in this way. It's disgusting, it truly is. The preconception with sexuality is entirely your religions and it's something that should be thrown in the garbage for it. It does nothing but harm people and this is the exact type of insidious harm it does by brainwashing people. But no it's ok.

And it's entirely someone's choice whether they want to follow it.  

shadowhive, on 06 February 2013 - 03:30 AM, said:

I'm not going to praise people for following what they believe if what they believe is wrong. Take a terrorist that truly believes they are doing god's work by murdering people. Should they be praised? After all, they're following what they believe too.

Fair call, I wouldn't praise a terrorist either.  But if someone believes a different religion to I, or if they have a different moral outlook than I on things, that's entirely fair and above board, and even though I may disagree, I praise them for having the conviction to follow what they follow.

shadowhive, on 06 February 2013 - 03:30 AM, said:

I think I have a good grasp of who you are,

Evidently not!

shadowhive, on 06 February 2013 - 03:30 AM, said:

And to add:
The popular media doesn't show people like him for a reason. You know why? Because it becomes an epxectation on all of us. If one gay person an be 'cured' then let's cure em all! That's the thinking that would result and it would set back rights even further.

I don't recall this member saying they were "cured".  I've never advocated that it was possible to "cure" a gay person.  I haven't even argued that it was something that needed to be "cured".  

You see why I don't believe you when you claim to know me?

Edited by Paranoid Android, 06 February 2013 - 03:42 AM.

[shadowhive]

Paranoid Android, on 06 February 2013 - 03:36 AM, said:

And it's entirely someone's choice whether they want to follow it.

Most that 'follow it' don't have a choice. They're forced into it, or manipulated into it. Nine times out of ten that's what happens. And that's why I can never praise it.

Quote

Fair call, I wouldn't praise a terrorist either.  But if someone believes a different religion to I, or if they have a different moral outlook than I on things, that's entirely fair and above board, and even though I may disagree, I praise them for having the conviction to follow what they follow.

Hmm.

Quote

Evidently not!

Evidently so. If the bible can be used to manipulate a person it's a'ok. Especially if it strips away their humanity. Anything's ok as long as it's not calling for physical harm.

Quote

I don't recall this member saying they were "cured".  I've never advocated that it was possible to "cure" a gay person.  I haven't even argued that it was something that needed to be "cured".  

You see why I don't believe you when you claim to know me

That doesn't really change anything does it? It would still be taken as an expectation for all.Yet you constantly argue that it's a sin, which is the same thing really.

This is what I mean by doublespeak. you say you don't advocate it being 'cured' yet a 'former' gay person presents themselves and what do you do? Praise them for their sacrifice. It's all the same thing.

Edited by shadowhive, 06 February 2013 - 03:46 AM.

[Paranoid Android]

shadowhive, on 06 February 2013 - 03:42 AM, said:

Most that 'follow it' don't have a choice. They're forced into it, or manipulated into it. Nine times out of ten that's what happens. And that's why I can never praise it.

Everyone has a choice.  I don't know why you think otherwise.  Unless you are referring to the effects of environmental surroundings, in which case opening a can of coca-cola is evidence that you have been forced into buying coke products rather than Pepsi, or eating a Big Mac is evidence that you have been manipulated into eating McDonalds instead of Burger King.  You still had a choice, though.

shadowhive, on 06 February 2013 - 03:42 AM, said:

That doesn't really change anything does it? It would still be taken as an expectation for all.Yet you constantly argue that it's a sin, which is the same thing really.

This is what I mean by doublespeak. you say you don't advocate it being 'cured' yet a 'former' gay person presents themselves and what do you do? Praise them for their sacrifice. It's all the same thing.

Curing something implies that being gay is a disease, and that by administering the right treatment they can turn back to heterosexuality.  That kind of thinking is scary, and leads to all manner of torture.  A person who chooses to abstain from homosexual sex in order to serve God does not necessarily mean they no longer have homosexual feelings, it just means that they have chosen not to act on them.  Like a Catholic Priest chooses not to have heterosexual relationships because they believe that is what God wants for them.  Do you feel sorry for Catholic priests?  Do feel that they have been forced and manipulated into choosing a celibate life?  If you do, then at least you're consistent though I'd disagree with you on this as well.