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Space-time Jump

superluminal space jump

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#16    Emma_Acid

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 11:34 PM

Back off man. He's a scientist.

Edited by Emma_Acid, 17 May 2013 - 11:35 PM.

"Science is the least subjective form of deduction" ~ A. Mulder

#17    shrooma

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 11:41 PM

View PostEmma_Acid, on 17 May 2013 - 11:34 PM, said:

Back off man. He's a scientist.
.
so was harold shipman, but you wouldn't want him looking after your grandma!!
:-)

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#18    pallidin

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 01:44 AM

Hyperspace?

I thought that notion is a purely mathematical construct, versus a phenomenon with evidence.

Not saying it doesn't exist, just saying that I have not yet seen evidence for it.

But hey, I'm just a layman.


#19    Emma_Acid

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 01:55 AM

View Postshrooma, on 17 May 2013 - 11:41 PM, said:

.
so was harold shipman, but you wouldn't want him looking after your grandma!!
:-)

He was an md, not a scientist. And both my grandmas are long gone.

Still, I get your point :w00t:

"Science is the least subjective form of deduction" ~ A. Mulder

#20    sepulchrave

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 02:14 AM

View Posthunray, on 17 May 2013 - 10:30 PM, said:

A: Atomic energy level doesn't match.

{certain Disturbance + arrangement of atoms can let photon access hyperspace.}
So you are suggesting that an entirely new degree of freedom is only accessible to gauge bosons of the electromagnetic field, and only accessible in media with a particular Fermi energy?

I guess it is a coincidence that RCL circuits exhibit analogous behaviour?

What about mesoscale metamaterials (like the ones described here, for example) which operate in the microwave regime? Here the group velocity of photons is also superluminal, but these materials are micron scale structures made from regular dielectrics and metals. Do microwaves go through ``hyperspace'', and if so how can a metal and teflon device printed on fibreglass and ceramics have the right atomic energy level (when each component individually seemly does not)?

Finally, I guess these guys are totally wrong in their conclusions?


#21    shrooma

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 06:18 AM

View PostEmma_Acid, on 18 May 2013 - 01:55 AM, said:



He was an md, not a scientist. And both my grandmas are long gone.

Still, I get your point :w00t:
.
scientists are.... doctors....?
(see what I did there)
:-D

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#22    third_eye

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 06:58 AM

View Postwimfloppp, on 17 May 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

Its all beyond me.

you are not alone ... :tu:

all I know is :

Posted Image

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' ... life and death carry on as they always have ~ and always will, only the dreamer is gone ~ behind the flow of imagination, beyond any effort to be still
dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions, only the dreamer is gone ~ the dream never ends
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#23    hunray

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 05:45 PM

View Postsepulchrave, on 18 May 2013 - 02:14 AM, said:

So you are suggesting that an entirely new degree of freedom is only accessible to gauge bosons of the electromagnetic field, and only accessible in media with a particular Fermi energy?
Do microwaves go through ``hyperspace'', and if so how can a metal and teflon device printed on fibreglass and ceramics have the right atomic energy level (when each component individually seemly does not)?

1. Yes, you got it. (only if an object exceed the speed of light.)
2. Microwaves photon can go through hyperspace, and you might search "microwave / radar absorbing material".
(i.e. Composite ferrite, silicon carbide, organic polymers, carbonyl iron, silicon carbide fibers, carbon fibers, organic polymer...)

Edited by hunray, 18 May 2013 - 06:45 PM.


#24    sepulchrave

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 08:54 PM

View Posthunray, on 18 May 2013 - 05:45 PM, said:

1. Yes, you got it. (only if an object exceed the speed of light.)
Well the subtext to my statement was a sense of incredulity, which has not gone away.

View Posthunray, on 18 May 2013 - 05:45 PM, said:

2. Microwaves photon can go through hyperspace, and you might search "microwave / radar absorbing material".
(i.e. Composite ferrite, silicon carbide, organic polymers, carbonyl iron, silicon carbide fibers, carbon fibers, organic polymer...)
I guess ``hyperspace'' is a very fickle thing, eh?

Microwaves don't exhibit superluminal group velocities when travelling through copper.
Microwaves don't exhibit superluminal group velocities when travelling through teflon.

BUT, when a microwaves of the appropriate wavelength travel through a composite made of the appropriate micron-scale metal and teflon structures, they exhibit superluminal group velocity.

According to the scientists who built these devices, this behaviour is predicted by Maxwell's equations and the Kramers-Kronig relations; causality is not violated, and superluminal energy and/or information transfer does not occur. (Also, quantum mechanics is not necessary to explain this phenomenon.)

According to you, however, the microwaves go into ``hyperspace''. You are actually suggesting that a structure large enough that you could easily examine it with a microscope (or even a good magnifying glass), operating at room temperature under standard pressure, somehow can access ``hyperspace'' - but only when arranged ``just so'' - and only for a very narrow bandwidth of microwaves?

If the electrons in this system are actually able to radiate electromagnetic radiation through hyperspace, why doesn't the atomic structure of these systems totally collapse?

The standard arrangement of electrons around an atom (1s2, 2s2, 2p6, etc.) is ONLY due to electromagnetic fields being confined to 3+1 space-time, and electrons having only a 2-level spin degree of freedom. If you allow something extra, the electrons will rearrange themselves dramatically.


#25    hunray

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 11:09 PM

My apology, I thought you were asking this. (I don't know what that means)


#26    sepulchrave

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 11:43 PM

View Posthunray, on 18 May 2013 - 11:09 PM, said:

(I don't know what that means)
In anomalous dispersion gasses, particular frequencies of light can exhibit superluminal group velocities, as you pointed out originally. This effect will only be exhibited in certain materials, and only in cases when the frequencies of light are close to resonance with particular electronic excitations. (This article, which I cited previously, shows the resonances in cesium gas.)

Because pretty much all of the appropriate resonances of materials occur near the infrared-to-optical range, these frequencies of light must be used to demonstrate superluminal group velocity in homogeneous materials. (In the article above, the light is in the infrared range for cesium gas.)

Since this demonstration of superluminal group velocity involves the excitation and de-excitation of single electron states - definitely a quantum problem - it might be reasonable to attribute this effect to some sort of ``quantum weirdness''.

However, as the paper from the Toronto group shows, you can get the same effect from microwaves (with wavelengths in the millimetre to centimetre range) in special structures made with micron-scale pieces of various materials. (And of course, as I've mentioned many times in this thread, you can get an analogous effect with a simple RCL circuit.)

This proves that the effect itself cannot be due to ``quantum weirdness'' (especially since it is predicted with classical electrodynamics).

While the case of superluminal group velocity in cesium gas certainly involves quantum mechanics (because it is due to single-electron excitations), the general phenomenon of superluminal group velocity is not a consequence of quantum mechanics. (An analogy to this is the Hall effect and the quantum Hall effect, see here.)

Since it is ludicrous to attribute microwave superluminal group velocity as somehow involving ``hyperspace'', it is silly to use such a drastic theory to explain superluminal group velocity in a quantum system (as I have tried to point out, allowing electromagnetic energy to ``leak'' somewhere else would dramatically change the very structure of atoms, among other things).


#27    third_eye

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 11:58 PM

Posted Image

its still just a movie folks ...

Quote

' ... life and death carry on as they always have ~ and always will, only the dreamer is gone ~ behind the flow of imagination, beyond any effort to be still
dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions, only the dreamer is gone ~ the dream never ends
'

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third_eye ' s cavern ~ bring own beer


#28    hunray

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 11:11 AM

In metals, which make up the wires and other conductors in most electrical circuits, the positive charges are immobile, and the charge carriers are electrons. Because the electron carries negative charge, the electron motion in a metal conductor is in the direction opposite to that of conventional (or electric) current.
When analyzing electrical circuits, the actual direction of current through a specific circuit element is usually unknown.

{As we see all stars rotate around the earth, and get the conclusion that we're in the center of the Universe?}


#29    sepulchrave

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 04:37 PM

View Posthunray, on 19 May 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

In metals, which make up the wires and other conductors in most electrical circuits, the positive charges are immobile, and the charge carriers are electrons. Because the electron carries negative charge, the electron motion in a metal conductor is in the direction opposite to that of conventional (or electric) current.
When analyzing electrical circuits, the actual direction of current through a specific circuit element is usually unknown.


What does this have to do with the original topic of this thread?

Why is it at all important to know which direction electrons are moving in a circuit?

And what circuit elements have unknown directions of current? Every element that I can think of has a pretty obvious direction of electron flow once you understand the circuit it is placed in.


#30    keithisco

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 09:50 PM

View Posthunray, on 19 May 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

In metals, which make up the wires and other conductors in most electrical circuits, the positive charges are immobile, and the charge carriers are electrons. Because the electron carries negative charge, the electron motion in a metal conductor is in the direction opposite to that of conventional (or electric) current.
When analyzing electrical circuits, the actual direction of current through a specific circuit element is usually unknown.

{As we see all stars rotate around the earth, and get the conclusion that we're in the center of the Universe?}

Apologies for jumping in here...Current can be either Positive or Negative, and it is surprisingly easy to detect which Sign it carries, in fact it is stupidly easy.

Back on topic: Superluminal acceleration is entirely possible and credible, but it seems (and I stress "SEEMS") to be dependent on whether any Mass is involved, and whether any Information can be transmitted at the same time.

Looking at the Good Old Star Trek Scenario (Warp Drive) what is actually happening is that Spacetime itself is being condensed (in the forward direction of travel) and expanded (in the reverse direction of Travel) to give the impression of Superluminal Travel (and Information Exchange), when, (in Einsteinian Theory) the rest of the Universe is ageing at the rate of T0.

Einstein of course made several grave errors in his hypotheses (please Google because there are too many to mention here), save to say that his famous Thought Experiments (look at the  "Twins in Elevators") hold errors that even a Sophomore should spot.

IMO





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