95 replies to this topic

[Seeker79]

Agent. Mulder, on 18 October 2010 - 04:21 PM, said:

Science isnt faith. You accept science based on the facts, you dont Believe in it.
They accept what is shown to be fact. Again, you dont believe in it. You have a very biased and flawed understanding of science.
Why will what we know now, no longer be truth?
What does sciences stance on the Big Bang and Abiogenesis have to do with this? Nothing. Try a real argument, not some sophists.

"Faith is in general the persuasion of the mind that a certain statement is true.[5] It is the belief and the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared, based on the declarer's authority and truthfulness.[6] The English word faith is dated from 1200–50, from the Latin fidem, or fidēs, meaning trust, akin to fīdere, which means to trust.[1]"

http://en.m.wikipedi...Redirected=true

I'll say it again mulder. Unless you are performing "fact" producing science your self you are trusting others to give it to you. You are faithful.

There are no facts mulder. Only observations. And if sceince were as objective as they claim to be why would so many scientists didagree on so many things. The varyation in sceintific beleifs are as varied as religions themselves. True objectivity is impossible.

[Agent. Mulder]

Seeker79, on 18 October 2010 - 05:33 PM, said:

What facts mulder. Anything that you can proove like say gravity exists, obviously it does, is then boiled down to how does exist, what's making it work. This is the reductionists method. But then inevitably you come to point where the best of sceince has to say well we don't know. Everything from gravity, momentum, electromagnatizm,...all of it cannot be explained on it's most fundamental level yet you genius agent mulder think you got it. Crap you should be writting in sceintific journals you are the first person with real answers.

No. Those journals already exist, you just werent aware of them. The force we Called Gravity, exists. Fact. They explain why.
The law of gravity says what WILL happen. The theory explains WHY it happens. What is your beef with it, and why do you not accept it?
What tests have you done that counter thier ideas, or at least draw theirs into question?
I await your response.

Seeker79, on 18 October 2010 - 05:33 PM, said:

Honestly man you can't tell anyone what your made of, where you are at, how you got there, how it began, how it will end, why you or anything else is here. All of your precious facts come from completely not understood concepts. Extensions of the unkown. The only thing proovable is the observation itself. The reduced reason for every single thing is a mystery. This idea that people like you have that sceince has or will have all the answers is a faith. There is no basis in reality to beleive that. Sceince is makeing observations and all observations boil down to things that are completely un explained, so it makes any absolute statment about the nature of the universe highly suspect and anyone who beleives in a specific method a person of faith. If you don't want to be a person of faith you have to be an agnostic, because it is the only honest position.

No. I never said it had all the answer. Care to quote me where i did?  
Science makes the hypothesese, the tests, and then the observations. If they observation dont work, they start over.
I am not a person of faith. Im an atheist in the sense that i dont Accept the idea of a god. Nothing to do with belief.
You still have a very poor understanding here.

[Agent. Mulder]

Seeker79, on 18 October 2010 - 05:46 PM, said:

"Faith is in general the persuasion of the mind that a certain statement is true.[5] It is the belief and the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared, based on the declarer's authority and truthfulness.[6] The English word faith is dated from 1200–50, from the Latin fidem, or fidēs, meaning trust, akin to fīdere, which means to trust.[1]"

http://en.m.wikipedi...Redirected=true

I'll say it again mulder. Unless you are performing "fact" producing science your self you are trusting others to give it to you. You are faithful.

There are no facts mulder. Only observations. And if sceince were as objective as they claim to be why would so many scientists didagree on so many things. The varyation in sceintific beleifs are as varied as religions themselves. True objectivity is impossible.

Oooh, wikipedia. Nice.
Well, im out now  
Science deals mainly facts. In your world, and reality, you do not.
Facts come about from observation, and we know theyre facts. I drop an apple out of my hand, it will fall. Fact. You disagree?
Many scientists dont disagree on a lot. But ill await the names of the scientists, their papers and their subjects. As long as its actually relevant to what were discussing.

[Seeker79]

Let's talk about the apple.

It fell an observation. Great. What made it fall? Hey what do you know.... Gravity. We all know good ole gravity. But what is gravity.... Curvature of Space.... One theory most sceintists will agree. Um but what makes space curve? Matter of course. But how? Well you know there are a lot of theories but none are prooven. Oh wait.... This guy over here thinks it might be a gravitron. A particle like an electron only it is the fundamental constitute of gravity..... We just havnt found it yet. If it is a gravitron, what's that made of.... Well it's made of vibrating strings in eleven dimensions. Ok. If space is curved what's it curved around? Maby another dimention, another universe, or maby nothing at all. So what is really happening when the apple falls. Well there are many theories but nobody has a clue.

We know that the apple can fall the rest is a mystery. So is everything else. The FACT is that with all of our observable data, we still don't know squat. But you do I guess. Because you have faith in the facts. Your faith is so great you are going to bash anything that is against it and passionatly defend it. Sounds like a religion to me. Good day my faithful friend.

[ghost fanatic001]

i beleive you can because there have been cases of family lines with phsycic abilities however it is a little iffy because sometimes it skips a generation or two giving skeptics a small foothold

[Agent. Mulder]

Seeker79, on 18 October 2010 - 06:58 PM, said:

Let's talk about the apple.
It fell an observation. Great. What made it fall? Hey what do you know.... Gravity. We all know good ole gravity. But what is gravity.... Curvature of Space.... One theory most sceintists will agree. Um but what makes space curve? Matter of course. But how? Well you know there are a lot of theories but none are prooven. Oh wait.... This guy over here thinks it might be a gravitron. A particle like an electron only it is the fundamental constitute of gravity..... We just havnt found it yet. If it is a gravitron, what's that made of.... Well it's made of vibrating strings in eleven dimensions. Ok. If space is curved what's it curved around? Maby another dimention, another universe, or maby nothing at all. So what is really happening when the apple falls. Well there are many theories but nobody has a clue.

What made it fall? The force we Call, Named Gravity. You cant change that. The same with the wind. The wind knocks something over, and we say it was the Force called the Wind.
The fact is, we know gravity is there, we know its effects and how it works. Deciding what its made of is something else. Again, your lack of understanding and argument is void.
What part of space are you saying is curved? The areas with greater gravitationl force? Your statements are vary vague.

Seeker79, on 18 October 2010 - 06:58 PM, said:

We know that the apple can fall the rest is a mystery. So is everything else. The FACT is that with all of our observable data, we still don't know squat. But you do I guess. Because you have faith in the facts. Your faith is so great you are going to bash anything that is against it and passionatly defend it. Sounds like a religion to me. Good day my faithful friend.

No. We know it fell from the force we call gravity. The Law is fact. The theory is the explanation of how gravity works.
I heard you have a kid? If thats the case, ill assume youre a little older than i, and i wish you would look into these subjects more.
I have no faith in science. I accept science. I do hope you grow up someday, and accept you are incorrect. Please dont teach the young ones your ideas.

[Kismit]

Agent. Mulder, on 18 October 2010 - 02:28 PM, said:

Well, no. You told me to define what im testing for when looking at a psychic. Which would be the methods and results, and what im aimiung for. I was just asking what type of person im supposedly testing here.
If its the run of the mill psychic (I stated above) then its not hard to test it.
As for your moms vague dream seeing you driving, and leaves blowing in your face, how does that equal fatal car accident?
Ive had dreams that later appeared to come true as well. Its not psychic though, i dream every night, im almost bound by chance to get something i dream about to resemble reality. But ive had thousands of dreams that equate to NOTHING in reality though. Thus, i forget about those completely.
Yes, you have no concept of them, but youre right, were not here to discuss it.

My Mothers vague dream. Have you ever been in a car accident? when the window glass blows in at you. She had no idea what it was about until after the fact . just like the vague dream she had of my brother lying in a pool of blood just before he fell through a glass window. I know, just coincidence. You can't go around telling people to stay away from pointy things because you had a dream, by the way she calls them pictures, not dreams. She isn't asleep when the pictures come to her.

Or how about my son who for 3 or 4 weeks heard people knocking at the door, or coming through our squeaky gate and without any pretence kept answering the person who was calling out to him. That stopped when  my husbands Aunt's body was found. Sadly she had been dead for  a month before she was found.

You want to test for ESP and yet there is no run of the mill form of psychic. You claim it is false and lies because it can't be tested. How on earth do you test for it. When most of the time, in my experience atleast you can't define it until after the event has taken place.

My main point still is. Posters should not mock other posters when they ask perfectly acceptable questions on the forum in a part of the board designed for just that sort of thing.

[Agent. Mulder]

Kismit, on 18 October 2010 - 07:26 PM, said:

My Mothers vague dream. Have you ever been in a car accident? when the window glass blows in at you. She had no idea what it was about until after the fact . just like the vague dream she had of my brother lying in a pool of blood just before he fell through a glass window. I know, just coincidence. You can't go around telling people to stay away from pointy things because you had a dream, by the way she calls them pictures, not dreams. She isn't asleep when the pictures come to her.

I have been in a car accident, probably not like yours though. But again, i dont see any reason someone would jump to such conclusions that because someone saw a car driving, and leaves in your face, that it somehow means a near fatal car accident. No way.

Kismit, on 18 October 2010 - 07:26 PM, said:

Or how about my son who for 3 or 4 weeks heard people knocking at the door, or coming through our squeaky gate and without any pretence kept answering the person who was calling out to him. That stopped when  my husbands Aunt's body was found. Sadly she had been dead for  a month before she was found.

That, i can explain. It makes no sense, and is not even related. There.
Why you attribute knocking on doors, and squaeky gates to the death of someone, or a deceased person is ridiculous, and doesnt make sense.

Kismit, on 18 October 2010 - 07:26 PM, said:

You want to test for ESP and yet there is no run of the mill form of psychic. You claim it is false and lies because it can't be tested. How on earth do you test for it. When most of the time, in my experience atleast you can't define it until after the event has taken place.

I never said it couldnt be tested. Read next time, and dont put words in my mouth. I said it can be tested if you have that person. The same way we were able to test gravity and evolution. If we have the person, theyre something tangible, so to speak. We test them and their abilities. Im the one saying we should be able to test it.

Kismit, on 18 October 2010 - 07:26 PM, said:

My main point still is. Posters should not mock other posters when they ask perfectly acceptable questions on the forum in a part of the board designed for just that sort of thing.

Yeop. I agree, and thats why im no mocking the OPs.

[Kismit]

Max.L, on 18 October 2010 - 12:59 PM, said:

What do leaves blowing into your faces have to do with a near fatal accident?  

If you say that it POSSIBLY meant or by some means is RELATED it to the accident, then that is just plain.. silly, no offense intended. There are many ways to interpret something. You probably only saw `the link' between the dream and the accident only after the accident happen. It was mere coincidence.  

Hope you and your family are fine. : )

Yes coincidence, if that's what you want to call it. If you wish to dismiss it as that that is entirely up to you. But the coincidence still is that My mother saw a picture in her head of me and my husband, driving in a car when something blew in at our faces. As I said above when you are in a car accident the first thing that happens is the glass that blows in to your face. No she did not know what it was about until after the fact. But it's still a pretty decent coincidence.

[The Skeptic Eric Raven]

Kismit, on 18 October 2010 - 07:39 PM, said:

Yes coincidence, if that's what you want to call it. If you wish to dismiss it as that that is entirely up to you. But the coincidence still is that My mother saw a picture in her head of me and my husband, driving in a car when something blew in at our faces. As I said above when you are in a car accident the first thing that happens is the glass that blows in to your face. No she did not know what it was about until after the fact. But it's still a pretty decent coincidence.

What seems obivous is that you are a beliver, and you don't care for skeptics, so you say we mock the people making claims. We don't. We just ask them to prove themselves. Since they are making claims they should back them up.  

[Kismit]

There seems to be no way of getting this across. It appears that the only form of a 6th sense you are willing to accept is one that would be as easy to test for as the more common 5. And logic would suggest that if it were that simple we would have proven it a long time ago. And yet we have not. That does not mean it doesn't exist. It means we have not found a way to define all of the ways a 6th sense manifests, in a way which can be tested in quantifiable amounts.

I don't need to make the correlation between the events I've witnessed becuase, they are instantly defined as coincidence or automatically dismissed as having nothing to do with each other, if you can't see it, you won't.  Have you ever read the book Truckers? it's a little like introducing the Outsiders to the Stationari.

Sketiscism is a wonderful thing, without it we would not have made it very far in science at all. However skeptisism is essential from all sides of the spectrum, you need to ask all of the questions including the one. Am I addressing the situation with an open mind? Instant dismisssals I have seen done a dozen or more times on the board because it is easier to dismiss something than to disprove it, feel a little like a lazy argument.

As for my Mum's visions.....
Yes coincidence. Most certainly would have been less of a coincidence if it had been someone else's Mother who saw the picture or someone else who was seen in the picture of the accident or perhaps if the people in the picture were weeding the garden rather than driving, or even if it had of been seen a year before hand. How accurate does it have to be before you can define it as a premonition? And if it were more accurate don't you think she would have done her best to warn us, perhaps stopping it from happening?

[Kismit]

The Skeptic Eric Raven, on 18 October 2010 - 07:49 PM, said:

What seems obivous is that you are a beliver, and you don't care for skeptics, so you say we mock the people making claims. We don't. We just ask them to prove themselves. Since they are making claims they should back them up.  

Eric, really? Seriously?
I love skeptiscism. I certainly rate it far more highly than the nutcase tinfoil hat wearers we have to deal with at times.

you don't mind explaining to me how

Quote

Do you think teens will ever get tired of claiming or wanting magical powers on this board?
public/style_emoticons/default/w00t.gif

Is a pleasent and polite way of asking someone to prove their claims. It looks like mocking to me.

[The Skeptic Eric Raven]

Kismit, on 18 October 2010 - 08:19 PM, said:

Eric, really? Seriously?
I love skeptiscism. I certainly rate it far more highly than the nutcase tinfoil hat wearers we have to deal with at times.

you don't mind explaining to me how  Is a pleasent and polite way of asking someone to prove their claims. It looks like mocking to me.

Didn't mean to offend. I guess we see things very differently. FYI. I still think your great.

[Seeker79]

Agent. Mulder, on 18 October 2010 - 07:06 PM, said:

What made it fall? The force we Call, Named Gravity. You cant change that. The same with the wind. The wind knocks something over, and we say it was the Force called the Wind.
The fact is, we know gravity is there, we know its effects and how it works. Deciding what its made of is something else. Again, your lack of understanding and argument is void.
What part of space are you saying is curved? The areas with greater gravitationl force? Your statements are vary vague.



No. We know it fell from the force we call gravity. The Law is fact. The theory is the explanation of how gravity works.
I heard you have a kid? If thats the case, ill assume youre a little older than i, and i wish you would look into these subjects more.
I have no faith in science. I accept science. I do hope you grow up someday, and accept you are incorrect. Please dont teach the young ones your ideas.

I'll have three soon, and I already knew you were younger than me. I was exactly like you once. That's why  I know it will be you who will do the growing. Your actually on the right path I think, because you have to start with questions. The problem that so many people have is that they stop asking and get stuck. Thank the spirits that that did not happen to me. I live a very full physical and spiritual life now. Al be it it was tumultuouse at first. I'm maried to a beautiful philapina woman, two increadble little boys, another on it's way. I own my business that's lucrative enough, I work maby 8 hours a week while my employees handle the rest. I can astrial travel  and talk with spirits. They have taught me so manythings small and big. I'm educated degrees in economics, finance, with minors in libral arts and acounting. My business makes me a leader in my community and it's something iv been doing since a very young age. And im just beginning to grow up. I teach young ones to never except things at face value and trust themselves above all others. Getting caught up in social institutions is what enslaves people.... Including science and religion. Your a smart guy mulder but you have the Ferver of a fundamentalist. You refuse to think bigger than what has been shown to you, and you Should know better.

Now you have read my posts, you know a little about me, tell me you beleive I'm full of crap, and I'll understand you better, tell me you think I'm insane or at least highly imaginative and will understand you better. If you think those things, then arguing is pointless because your either arguing with a liar or a mad man. Now with that said my experiences are very real, and many others have similar ones. You don't, so you are at a disadvantage. You only trust the facts..... Great so do I. It is a fact for me to have an experience where I fly around with spirits and learn things. It's my fact and others have the same thing, so it's not just me. You have a faith that it has to fit within the normal parameters of currently observed science or it can't possibly be real yet admit that you or science does not have all the answers ( i would say very few at that ). How can you possibly argue so ferverantly and suggest I shouldn't teach others about what I know, when you know for a fact that science cannot explain so much. Your a walking condridiction my friend. I'm sorry not an insult, just an observation.

Edited by Seeker79, 18 October 2010 - 08:37 PM.

[The Skeptic Eric Raven]

Seeker79, on 18 October 2010 - 08:33 PM, said:

Now you have read my posts, you know a little about me, tell me you beleive I'm full of crap, and I'll understand you better, tell me you think I'm insane or at least highly imaginative and will understand you better.

I wouldn't say this, but I might agree with it.