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Time travel


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#61    keninsc

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 05:52 PM

Quote

the past..Im gonna use icons to lighten up the mood and remember this is just my opinion as crazy as it does sound! :yes: and it will sound crazy...
Here the thing I've been trying to say, even if you  went back in the to the past and played the lottery number.... here it is.... You  still would not experience it in your reality when you go back into the future.... You  would have to give the winning ticket....to your other self...  in that parallel past earth.... and he would experience the wealth .... You  still would be broke when you go back to the future  ....because you ....came from a time line in a parallel future reality... where you  did not win the lottery :no:  .... You came from a parallel earth where the jersey couple won   ..... If you  went back to the past...., there would still be another you  there in that past.... because you  where still alive at that time point .... The future you... can interact with the past you ....., but once that happens....you .... create a new reality... where it will no longer be your past.... Unless... you  ... coming from the future... to.. already had that experience in the past.... of meeting himself  from the future..... try to stomach that one  ....You... cant change you ... from past... because that wouldnt be your past :no: ...

Actually, I'm impressed. You've obviously thought a great deal about this........which is why it actually pains me to do this, but let me show you how to beat that paradox.

You got back and win the previous lottery, once you buy the ticket, you put it in your pocket. You then return to the present......that is, your present. You step out of the time machine, you reach in your pocket......Lo and behold.......you're now holding the ticket that won from the lottery from the lottery before last. You then make plans, get investment advice, planning for your future so that you never have to do anything that you don't want to do again. However, keep in mind that you have six months from the date on the ticket to claim your prize. You then enjoy life.


#62    keninsc

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 05:57 PM

View PostStarMountainKid, on 01 January 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

Yes, but the atoms and molecules that make up you and your time machine when you enter the Past are busy doing something else in that Past. When you arrive, if those atoms don't instantly leave what they are doing and become you and your ship, you are introducing extra energy into the universe.

I am familiar with the law of conservation of energy.

I think time travel into the past is fundamentally prohibited by the laws governing the structure of the physical universe, for obvious paradoxical reasons.

Time traveling into the future is also prohibited in the same way. Traveling into the future would create the same kinds of paradoxes as traveling into the past. I say this because the Future and the Past are not different from each other time-wise. The year 1800 is our Past, but for someone living in the year 1750, the year 1800 is the Future.

If we go back in time to the year 1800 and change some event, from the perspective of that person in 1750, we have traveled into the future. Past and Future are the same in the time dimension in this way.

Similarly, if you travel 10 years into the Past and meet your past self, from your past self's perspective, you are a traveler from the Future. From his perspective a future that hasn't happened yet, but his future has already happened.

I think this scenario is universal in Time. In other words, our Present is only a moment in the total Time continuum. The Past has already happened and the Future has already happened. Our Present is a moment somewhere within this continuum.

That only works if the time line is so sensative that time travel is too dangerous to attempt. I seriously doubt that it's that sensative. Let's face it, if that's the case and you return to a time when you already exist then one of you is going to cancel the other out......making it a one way and very short trip.

How has the future already happened when it's still in the future?


#63    keninsc

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 06:00 PM

View Postpallidin, on 01 January 2013 - 05:48 PM, said:

Oh, and just for the heck of it...

I don't remember the specific scientific paper, but, it has been proven that all of our human senses have a delay before we are concious of the "sense"

Bluntly, everything we see is actually slightly in the past, even our refelection in a mirror, our spouse right in front of us, cars passing by us, etc...

I know it's "nerdy" but thought I would pass that along anyway.

That's just persecptive lag time, sort of like making a radio call from Mars to Earth.......it takes fifteen minutes to give to us at light speed. We saw this when all the Mars landers got to Mars. Remember? The guy at JPL was saying, "Whatever has happened has already happend so all we can do is watch and see how it came out." We were watching the present via a time delay.....in the future.

What? :unsure2:


#64    Dr. Mirdad

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 06:06 PM

View Postkeninsc, on 01 January 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

Actually, I'm impressed. You've obviously thought a great deal about this........which is why it actually pains me to do this, but let me show you how to beat that paradox.

You got back and win the previous lottery, once you buy the ticket, you put it in your pocket. You then return to the present......that is, your present. You step out of the time machine, you reach in your pocket......Lo and behold.......you're now holding the ticket that won from the lottery from the lottery before last. You then make plans, get investment advice, planning for your future so that you never have to do anything that you don't want to do again. However, keep in mind that you have six months from the date on the ticket to claim your prize. You then enjoy life.

Hey, I actually like this one. I never thought about it in this fashion. Another way of getting rich by time traveling :tu:

“Often you shall think your road impassable, sombre and companionless. Have will and plod along; and round each curve you shall find a new companion.”

#65    pallidin

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 06:08 PM

Right. We never actually watch the "present", even right in front of us, but only the "past", though that past may only be nano-milliseconds "before"

In astronomy, that "past" that we perceive as "present" is minutes(our sun), thousands or billions of years ago for other stuff.

Strange, but very much true.

Edited by pallidin, 01 January 2013 - 06:14 PM.


#66    StarMountainKid

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 06:22 PM

keninsc said:

How has the future already happened when it's still in the future?

If the future hasn't already happened, how do you explain,

Quote

Similarly, if you travel 10 years into the Past and meet your past self, from your past self's perspective, you are a traveler from the Future. From his perspective his future that hasn't happened yet, but his future has already happened.
(I quote myself from my previous post)

We consider the future as a nebulous set of possibilities not yet realized, but from the quoted statement above, this concept may or may not be true. How do we know the future does not already exist? We consider the past as not existing, but as the past has happened, how can the Past disappear from reality?

The Past is only non-existent from our perspective of the Present moment. If the Past and the Future do not exist, how can the Present exist?

Edited by StarMountainKid, 01 January 2013 - 06:32 PM.

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#67    keninsc

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 07:45 PM

Crapola!!!

Sorry SMK, I had this great reply all typed out and everything then the Lords of the internet ate the darn thing. Sorry, I'm a little bummed by that right this red hot minute, but I will reply again.


#68    joc

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 08:01 PM

View Postkeninsc, on 01 January 2013 - 07:45 PM, said:

Crapola!!!

Sorry SMK, I had this great reply all typed out and everything then the Lords of the internet ate the darn thing. Sorry, I'm a little bummed by that right this red hot minute, but I will reply again.
That is why I type long posts in word...and then copy them...just sayin'...yeah...

But what I was really going to say is that, time doesn't exist.  Therefore traversing back and forth in time is...on one level interesting...but on another level...irrelevant.  Time is a measurement.  Everything happens now...that illusive, never able to define source of the constant eternal present.  Yesterday doesn't exist.  Tomorrow doesn't exist.  The present doesn't exist either, because by the time your brain acknowledges the present...it is already past...and so...the great adventure is always in the moment at hand...always.

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#69    keninsc

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 08:04 PM

I actually, normally do that however this forum lulled me into a false sense of security and then hammered me like a tent peg into the ground.

C'est La Vive, if that's the worst that happens to me then I'll be fine

Now I need to take a shower and some Tylenol......ouch, my head hurts.

* walks to shower.....rubs head on the way*


#70    StarMountainKid

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 09:07 PM

Quote

But what I was really going to say is that, time doesn't exist.  Therefore traversing back and forth in time is...on one level interesting...but on another level...irrelevant.  Time is a measurement.  Everything happens now...that illusive, never able to define source of the constant eternal present.  Yesterday doesn't exist.  Tomorrow doesn't exist.  The present doesn't exist either, because by the time your brain acknowledges the present...it is already past...and so...the great adventure is always in the moment at hand...always

My reply would be, the time interval of the present does exist. I think the source of "the eternal present" are the intervals of Planck time, like physical snapshots of space-time. This interval of space-time is so short we cannot notice it. These Planck time intervals or snapshots are the existences of the physical universe. The past intervals must always exist, space and time being inseparable.

In other words, can all space at one instant of time become non-existent when the next instant of the present time occurs?  I don't see how the space and time present moment past, if I can put it that way, can just disappear from existence.

Space is not nothing, it is a physical construct. This physical space that exists in the present moment exists, and in the next moment it must still exist, and in the next moment it still exists. All these existences physically exist in their own moments of time, and the reality of their physicality cannot just vanish.

What is physically real 'now' remains real as what we call the past, but 'the past' is just a human concept derived from our insulation from all these still existing moments, due to the restriction of our consciousness from interacting with them.

The future is the same deal. Without the existence of a physical space-time 'future', our present could not exist, as the next present moment could have no reality if a 'future' reality does not already exist to replace it. Reality is all space-time intervals already existing 'past' and 'future'.

The Past space-time intervals have happened and are always happening in their frozen moments, and in the same sense the Future has happened and is always happening in its frozen moments. I think this is an accepted scenario of physics.

Anyway it's also my view of this subject. :) I could be wrong, of course.  It seems to me the more counter intuitive an explanation of this weird universe is, the more probable its truth.

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#71    joc

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 09:52 PM

View PostStarMountainKid, on 01 January 2013 - 09:07 PM, said:

My reply would be, the time interval of the present does exist. I think the source of "the eternal present" are the intervals of Planck time, like physical snapshots of space-time. This interval of space-time is so short we cannot notice it. These Planck time intervals or snapshots are the existences of the physical universe. The past intervals must always exist, space and time being inseparable.

In other words, can all space at one instant of time become non-existent when the next instant of the present time occurs?  I don't see how the space and time present moment past, if I can put it that way, can just disappear from existence.

Space is not nothing, it is a physical construct. This physical space that exists in the present moment exists, and in the next moment it must still exist, and in the next moment it still exists. All these existences physically exist in their own moments of time, and the reality of their physicality cannot just vanish.

What is physically real 'now' remains real as what we call the past, but 'the past' is just a human concept derived from our insulation from all these still existing moments, due to the restriction of our consciousness from interacting with them.

The future is the same deal. Without the existence of a physical space-time 'future', our present could not exist, as the next present moment could have no reality if a 'future' reality does not already exist to replace it. Reality is all space-time intervals already existing 'past' and 'future'.

The Past space-time intervals have happened and are always happening in their frozen moments, and in the same sense the Future has happened and is always happening in its frozen moments. I think this is an accepted scenario of physics.

Anyway it's also my view of this subject. :) I could be wrong, of course.  It seems to me the more counter intuitive an explanation of this weird universe is, the more probable its truth.
You are wrong, of course! :)  But not about everything.  Space is energy.  'read my sig'  et al ....Everything happens and everything changes...the space that was between the stars yesterday is not the same space that is between the stars today...nor are the stars the same stars...nothing stays the same...everything changes constantly and the only reality that exists is that constant change.  So, you want to travel back in time to the day before 9/11 and warn everyone...there is no 9/11 to go back to...the reality is the constant change...there is no 9/11...it transformed, re-manifested into something else and will never exist again...it isn't still existing in space and time somewhere...it changed.  The change is constant.  Time is a measurement of change, nothing more.

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#72    seeder

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 10:10 PM

View PostStarMountainKid, on 01 January 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

Yes, but the atoms and molecules that make up you and your time machine when you enter the Past are busy doing something else in that Past. When you arrive, if those atoms don't instantly leave what they are doing and become you and your ship, you are introducing extra energy into the universe.

I am familiar with the law of conservation of energy.

I think time travel into the past is fundamentally prohibited by the laws governing the structure of the physical universe, for obvious paradoxical reasons.

Time traveling into the future is also prohibited in the same way. Traveling into the future would create the same kinds of paradoxes as traveling into the past. I say this because the Future and the Past are not different from each other time-wise. The year 1800 is our Past, but for someone living in the year 1750, the year 1800 is the Future.

If we go back in time to the year 1800 and change some event, from the perspective of that person in 1750, we have traveled into the future. Past and Future are the same in the time dimension in this way.

Similarly, if you travel 10 years into the Past and meet your past self, from your past self's perspective, you are a traveler from the Future. From his perspective a future that hasn't happened yet, but his future has already happened.

I think this scenario is universal in Time. In other words, our Present is only a moment in the total Time continuum. The Past has already happened and the Future has already happened. Our Present is a moment somewhere within this continuum.

well i am certainly no expert, but just for fun - heres another explanation! The one of the alleged John Titor...(I know its not real but he was good at making plausible suggestions)

"Dear Art,

I had to fax when I heard other time travelers calling in from any time past the year 2500 AD. Please let me explain.

Time travel was invented in 2034 off shoots of certain successful fusion reactor research allowed scientists at CERN to produce the worlds first contained singularity engine.

The basic design involves rotating singularities inside a magnetic feild. By altering the speed and direction of rotation you can travel both forward and backward in time.

Time itself can be understood in terms of connected lines. When you go back in time you travel on your original time line when you turn the singularity engine off a new time line is created due to the fact that you and your time machine are now there.

In other words a new universe is created. To get back to your original line you must travel a split second farther back and immediately throw the engine into forward without turning it off.

Some interesting outcomes of this are: You meet yourself. I have done it often. Even taken a younger version of myself along for a few rides before returning myself to the new timeline and going back to mine. You can alter history in the new universe that you have just created. Most of the time the changes are subtle. The oldest one was a sky scraper that don't exist in New York. Interestingly when you travel in time you must compensate for the orbit of the Earth since the time machine doesn't move you have to adjust the engine so you remain on the planet when you turn it off"

see:
http://timetravelins...12-viewer.7792/




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#73    StarMountainKid

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 02:01 AM

joc said:

Time is a measurement of change, nothing more.

If we film a ball rolling on a table, and reverse the film, we cannot tell the reversed film from the forwarded film. If we film an egg drop from a table and splater on the floor, and reverse that film, we will know that the film has been reversed.

From the whole egg to the splattered egg is change, but the splattered egg to the whole egg is change also. What determines the allowed change from the disallowed change in this example? I think what regulates change in this way is the nature of our consciousness as it observes change from past to future.

The laws of physics allow change to happen, but in those laws there is no preferred direction that changes can occur. If we film elementary particles colliding and bouncing off each other, if we reverse the film, all the laws that determine the results of the event remain the same. I think we can infer from this that change in reverse is just as real as change in the forward direction. Our consciousness preferrs the forward direction, and that's what we observe.

If the reverse change is just as real as the forward change, then there must exist a past for this reverse change to occur in. If change exists in the forward direction, there must be a future for this forward change to occur in.

How do we know this everlasting, changing moment we are aware of is the true reality? We consider it true because of the nature of our consciousness. Our consciousness determines for itself the direction of change, but change itself has no preferred direction.

If it were otherwise we would be eternally confused as to what is happening. :) I just think our comprehension and what appears to us to be true and real is determined by the nature of our llimited consciousness. What lies external to our consciousness? The nature of actual existence I think is very different than what we percieve it to be.

Edited by StarMountainKid, 02 January 2013 - 02:01 AM.

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#74    joc

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 03:52 AM

You can reverse the film all day long.  In Reality,  neither the ball, nor the egg is ever going to reverse itself.  You are confusing Movies with Reality, which, unfortunately seems to be the case with far too many people.

Quote


The laws of physics allow change to happen, but in those laws there is no preferred direction that changes can occur.
The laws of physics don't allow change to happen.  Change happens, the laws of physics are an attempt to illustrate that change occurs naturally but in a set of 'constants'...again...a measurement.

You are really trying to make this all complicated, when it really isn't.

Edited by joc, 02 January 2013 - 03:58 AM.

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#75    keninsc

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 06:01 AM

Wow Joc........that's too weird even for me to entertain.





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