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Morality? Something isn't working.


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#16    meryt-tetisheri

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 07:05 PM

Why does religion, any religion, have to dragged into the discussion? Surely compassion, empathy, respect for the dignity and freedom of others, and 'morality' are all unifying common denominators all human beings share; regardless of religious faith. Generalizations, stereotypes, and finger pointing are so easily and readily conjured up by both atheists and theists, that the only thing that becomes obvious is that lack of tolerance is what many on both sides share!


#17    ranrod

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 07:22 PM

I'm not super well versed in all religions, but to me Christianity seems like the most self-contradictory of all.  Mostly because of the antagonistic nature of NT vs OT.  So many Christians quote the OT that I usually end up asking them to convert to Judaism.  Which itself has some weird moral guidelines:  selling your daughter to slavery is ok, eating shellfish is a horrible sin.  Burning your daughter to death is ok, but eating pork is strictly prohibited.  Killing a man is ok (as long as you say God told you to), working on a Saturday is strictly forbidden.  Having sex with your daughters and impregnating them is ok, lending money to a fellow Jew (for interest) is strictly forbidden.  The list goes on and on.
These things probably made sense 2,000 years ago, and probably contributed to their longevity, but I think we have evolved passed that.  I'd say some communities today, either religious or non-religious, have significantly higher moral standards than anything in the bible.


#18    ranrod

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 07:26 PM

View Postmeryt-tetisheri, on 02 October 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

Why does religion, any religion, have to dragged into the discussion? Surely compassion, empathy, respect for the dignity and freedom of others, and 'morality' are all unifying common denominators all human beings share; regardless of religious faith. Generalizations, stereotypes, and finger pointing are so easily and readily conjured up by both atheists and theists, that the only thing that becomes obvious is that lack of tolerance is what many on both sides share!
because Religion mostly works against our moral evolution towards greater compassion, empathy, and respect for others.


#19    scowl

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 07:33 PM

View Postmeryt-tetisheri, on 02 October 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

Why does religion, any religion, have to dragged into the discussion?

Religion doesn't have to be dragged into the discussion -- it will cheerfully rush into the discussion on its own since it's the base of Western morality.

Quote

Surely compassion, empathy, respect for the dignity and freedom of others, and 'morality' are all unifying common denominators all human beings share; regardless of religious faith.

Um, you might want to look into the histories of various religions and nations. For example there's a reason why India and Pakistan were made separate countries. It wasn't because "compassion, empathy, respect for the dignity and freedom of others" is a common human denominator.


#20    GreenmansGod

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 07:40 PM

View PostAtlantia, on 02 October 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

Some days the problems of the world seem insurmountable.

I guess some of them are.  :hmm:

Edited by Darkwind, 02 October 2012 - 07:41 PM.

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." Salman Rushdie

#21    None of the above

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 07:49 PM

View Postmeryt-tetisheri, on 02 October 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

Why does religion, any religion, have to dragged into the discussion? Surely compassion, empathy, respect for the dignity and freedom of others, and 'morality' are all unifying common denominators all human beings share; regardless of religious faith. Generalizations, stereotypes, and finger pointing are so easily and readily conjured up by both atheists and theists, that the only thing that becomes obvious is that lack of tolerance is what many on both sides share!

Religion is part of the problem because some people use it as an excuse for intollerence. But so are other things. Rampant comsumerism, and the worst excesses of capitalism. Corruption and greed, bigotry and hatred, take your pick. It all combines to royaly screw the average person to some extent or another and many don't even realise they are being bent over.

It doesn't have to be like this.


#22    JGirl

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 07:59 PM

sadly, nothing shocks me anymore.
the picture on the right in the OP makes me feel an incredible ache in my being


#23    meryt-tetisheri

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 08:38 PM

View Postscowl, on 02 October 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

Religion doesn't have to be dragged into the discussion -- it will cheerfully rush into the discussion on its own since it's the base of Western morality.



Um, you might want to look into the histories of various religions and nations. For example there's a reason why India and Pakistan were made separate countries. It wasn't because "compassion, empathy, respect for the dignity and freedom of others" is a common human denominator.

Morality and ethics exist with or without religion, and among all nations, just as much as cruelty and 'hard heartedness'. Your second statement seems to affirm this duality of human nature. If intolerance and lack of empathy do exist outside the influence of religion, that it can not be viewed as the sole 'incitor' of intolerance, and other contributing factors must also be included in the argument if one wants to avoid slipping into oversimplification and value judgment.


#24    meryt-tetisheri

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 08:43 PM

View PostAtlantia, on 02 October 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

Religion is part of the problem because some people use it as an excuse for intollerence. But so are other things. Rampant comsumerism, and the worst excesses of capitalism. Corruption and greed, bigotry and hatred, take your pick. It all combines to royaly screw the average person to some extent or another and many don't even realise they are being bent over.

It doesn't have to be like this.

I agree with you Atlantia. My objection was for the use of religion as an ever-ready label always available to explain any anything and everything, that and the tendency to summerize groups of people into a pre-defined category then judging them accordingly.


#25    ranrod

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 01:41 AM

View PostAtlantia, on 02 October 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

Religion is part of the problem because some people use it as an excuse for intollerence. But so are other things. Rampant comsumerism, and the worst excesses of capitalism. Corruption and greed, bigotry and hatred, take your pick. It all combines to royaly screw the average person to some extent or another and many don't even realise they are being bent over.

It doesn't have to be like this.
Just curious, do you have an alternative for the capitalist system of today?  Or you simply want to bring awareness to that issue?


#26    None of the above

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 09:04 AM

View Postranrod, on 03 October 2012 - 01:41 AM, said:

Just curious, do you have an alternative for the capitalist system of today?  Or you simply want to bring awareness to that issue?

Hi Ranrod,

I think we need balance. The whole system has been allowed to become rotten.
We call our system 'capitalism' but that's kind of like calling a monsoon a 'heavy dew'.
The labels that we give these systems are also in some ways misleading as they are massive generalisations.


I think the problem with the system we've got is that it needs a top down overhaul.
The voting system and party funding. Vested interests and 'donations'. Chronyism, corruption, 'jobs for the boys' the list is endless.
The influence of big business, the multinational companies that seem to exploit and control with virtually no checks or oversight.

'capitalism' is used as an excuse for appalling greed and exploitation, while any sort of state ownership or control has the right wing screaming like it's the October Revolution.
The truth is that we need some of both.
Capitalism needs brakes and limits, just like religion, or anything.

You're asking me how I'd try and solve the worlds problems starting with our own system.
It's a big question and I wasn't expecting to begin a quest for the grail today... So give me some credit for throwing some thoughts out there OK>?

priorities! We need to give kids better examples than X-Factor winners and 'Premier League footballers'.
We need to teach kids proper values so they respect each other more than money.
We need to reward kindness and service not greed and ruthlessness.

We need a balance of free market forces, and government regulation. Private and state ownership.
Just in our 'own backyard' there is no excuse for people living on the streets, old people freezing to death each winter, people having to work 12 or 18 hour days 6 or 7 days a week just to keep their heads above water while corrupt bankers who brought the whole system to it's knees pay themselves gigantic salaries and seven figure bonuses while living in the kind of obscene luxary that makes the last days of Rome look like Oliver Twist.
The majoritiy of people in the UK are working hard to keep their heads above water while the real 'profits' of their labours go to make the already filthy rich into the obscenely rich.

As soon as we start to fix our system and make it fairer and better we can start to make the world a better place as well.

Balance, morality and decency. Reject the extremes of greed, of religion, of selfish self interest. Reject the politics of fear and those who would just divide us.

We could be so much more than we are. It doesn't have to be this way.

Edited by Atlantia, 03 October 2012 - 09:10 AM.


#27    markdohle

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 01:36 PM

View PostBling, on 02 October 2012 - 05:55 PM, said:

And this is why I hate religion :)

???????  It is the religious organizations that do the most charity in the world.  What are you doing to make the world a better place (?) atheist do little as far as I can see.  Religion does work, stereotypes and straw-man arguments regardless.  We see what we want, we live in the world we believe in.  It is the religious charities that continue  to help long after a catastrophe after the stars and politicians leave when the press does.  I guess you are a bigot, though I doubt you will agree with me on this ;-).  Even with homosexuals and aids, it is again religious organizations that do the most for these poor men, as well as counsel women after they have abortions and need to deal with their loss.  Do you do anything to help others or to make the world a better place?  I hope so, or do you just like pointing your finger, perhaps the way you did when you said you were a believer.

Edited by markdohle, 03 October 2012 - 01:37 PM.


#28    markdohle

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 01:38 PM

View Postmeryt-tetisheri, on 02 October 2012 - 08:43 PM, said:

I agree with you Atlantia. My objection was for the use of religion as an ever-ready label always available to explain any anything and everything, that and the tendency to summerize groups of people into a pre-defined category then judging them accordingly.

Yeah like you do, perhaps you should change first.


#29    markdohle

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 01:40 PM

View Postranrod, on 02 October 2012 - 07:26 PM, said:

because Religion mostly works against our moral evolution towards greater compassion, empathy, and respect for others.

Is that an opinion, or do you have some proof of what you just said.

peace
mark


#30    meryt-tetisheri

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 01:42 PM

View Postmarkdohle, on 03 October 2012 - 01:38 PM, said:

Yeah like you do, perhaps you should change first.

You need to explain more what do you mean exactly, elaborate please!





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