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Corporal punishment - For or against?


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#31    IamsSon

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 09:48 PM

View Postshadowhive, on 04 March 2013 - 09:32 PM, said:

You cannot treat the world as an army boot camp.

Yes most civilians would make poor soliders but guess what? That works for anyone doing anything that requires training! A person off the street wouldn't make a good surgeon or lawyer or firefighter. These jobs require certain mindsets, certain skill sets and, yes, a great degree of training. Also not everyone is cut out to be x, y, z. Some peole would break down in army training because it would be too much for them. Other ones simply wouldn't be able to do it or wouldn't be able to handle combat.

Children do require 'basic training' in a sense. They come into this world clueless and have to be taught things because they know nothing.

When I have a kid, I'm not hitting my kid. Such a thing seems unthinkable to me. You can teach a child discipline without violence.
There is a HUGE difference between spanking a child and violent abuse.  If you can't get your head wrapped around that, I don't know what I can say to you.

"But then with me that horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin, in a letter to William Graham on July 3, 1881

#32    shadowhive

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 09:53 PM

View PostIamsSon, on 04 March 2013 - 09:48 PM, said:

There is a HUGE difference between spanking a child and violent abuse.  If you can't get your head wrapped around that, I don't know what I can say to you.

It's like I said before, it is very easy for someone to go too far and excuse it as 'disipline' or 'punishment'.And o course, in a climate where corporal punishment is a-ok it makes it hader for victims of abuse to be dealt with appropriately because the parent could just say they were 'displining' them and then it becomes alright.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
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#33    Sherapy

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 10:02 PM

View PostCrimsonKing, on 04 March 2013 - 09:23 PM, said:

We have another thread about this same subject on another topic sherapy,you just mentioned the number 1 thing i have stated as the problem in another topic.Traditional family values are mostly gone now days,you sound like a attentive caring parent most now days are not they want the rest of the world to babysit there children for them.As said i believe it to be a situational problem.

I can see your point,

I think in some cases parents cut out to early, namely the teens when their kids need them the most because the issues they face if handled poorly can lead to horrible problems for the kid, family and society.

I am definitely an advocate for quality parenting, I just do not think/suggest hitting them more is the solution or not hitting them enough is the core issue.

I have good kids the reason I have good kids is I parent, I do my job.I also keep myself on top of the latest in child development/psychology and I understand the maturing child from many perspectives including theirs, I take the time to really know my kids and their short comings..

So I agree with you, it is 99.9 percent the quality of the parenting.




#34    IamsSon

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 11:07 PM

View Postshadowhive, on 04 March 2013 - 09:53 PM, said:

It's like I said before, it is very easy for someone to go too far and excuse it as 'disipline' or 'punishment'.And o course, in a climate where corporal punishment is a-ok it makes it hader for victims of abuse to be dealt with appropriately because the parent could just say they were 'displining' them and then it becomes alright.
My wife and I spanked both our kids and never went too far because we were not doing it out of anger or frustration, we were doing it because we love our children and needed to be sure they would quickly and surely learn so they would avoid harm and or death.

Physical abuse is not the same as corporal discipline, no matter how much you may say it is.

"But then with me that horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin, in a letter to William Graham on July 3, 1881

#35    shadowhive

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 11:26 PM

View PostIamsSon, on 04 March 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

My wife and I spanked both our kids and never went too far because we were not doing it out of anger or frustration, we were doing it because we love our children and needed to be sure they would quickly and surely learn so they would avoid harm and or death.

Physical abuse is not the same as corporal discipline, no matter how much you may say it is.

I didn't equate corporal punishment to abuse necessarilly. However I think it's certainly a grey area at best. You might not go 'too far' but you can't say the same about every parent and, I'm sorry, but that's a risk I'm not comfortable with.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#36    IamsSon

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 11:32 PM

View Postshadowhive, on 04 March 2013 - 11:26 PM, said:

I didn't equate corporal punishment to abuse necessarilly. However I think it's certainly a grey area at best. You might not go 'too far' but you can't say the same about every parent and, I'm sorry, but that's a risk I'm not comfortable with.
So, then you must also be uncomfortable with any car that can be driven faster than 5 mph because although most people will stop if a person walks out in front of their car, there are people who may not.  You must be uncomfortable with kitchen knives because although most people will probably not use them to stab someone to death, there are some people who might.

"But then with me that horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin, in a letter to William Graham on July 3, 1881

#37    redhen

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 11:35 PM

View PostIamsSon, on 04 March 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

Physical abuse is not the same as corporal discipline, no matter how much you may say it is.

Yes, I've tried to explain this.  My new avatar is the Jain symbol. I believe the Sanskrit means "non-violence is the paramount teaching" (ahimsa paramo dharma). I take that as the ideal to strive towards.It does not mean you can abuse and walk all over Jains. I think what's missing in the use of the word violence in this thread is the qualifier unnecessary.  I probably take this to extremes, according to many UM'ers. I believe that eating meat (in a modern agricultural society) is unnecessary, and thus killing animals to consume them is by definition, cruel. I just mention this to balance out my previous statement about prior military experience. I'm not some kind of sadist.

That said, smacking a child on the hand to modify his behavior, for his own safety, is sometimes necessary.


#38    shadowhive

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 11:36 PM

View PostIamsSon, on 04 March 2013 - 11:32 PM, said:

So, then you must also be uncomfortable with any car that can be driven faster than 5 mph because although most people will stop if a person walks out in front of their car, there are people who may not.  You must be uncomfortable with kitchen knives because although most people will probably not use them to stab someone to death, there are some people who might.

Ah yes, because those things are in any way comparable.

Look I'm against people harming children for anything other than medical reasons. You amy see corporal punishment as a good thing, but you know what? It takes disipline not to take it too far, not to turn it into abuse. You may have that discipline because of your army training but you know what? Not everyone posessses that. Some people will go too far, or beat their their kids for the slightest infraction.

Kids are vulnerable so excuse me for not wanting them hurt. I must be a terrible human being to not want that musn't I?

If you're going to promote corporate punishment then a: how do you ensure people don't go too far and b: how do you ensure abuse isn't misinterpreted as 'disipline'?

Edited by shadowhive, 04 March 2013 - 11:39 PM.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#39    Sherapy

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 11:40 PM

View PostIamsSon, on 04 March 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

My wife and I spanked both our kids and never went too far because we were not doing it out of anger or frustration, we were doing it because we love our children and needed to be sure they would quickly and surely learn so they would avoid harm and or death.

Physical abuse is not the same as corporal discipline, no matter how much you may say it is.

IMO, hitting kids is not the best way to educate/teach our children, I think when we say I am hitting you because I love you will teach a child that hitting is an acceptable way to deal with conflict. It is not (in the real world) and we do not hit each other to deal with issues.


We ourselves as the parent must model civility and personal discipline, any kind of hitting on a defenseless child would be a huge issue for me.and I would call it abuse  IMO. As the parent we are supposed to protect them even when it is from ourselves.
I do not see a difference between corporal punishment and abuse and I think if we hit we have gone to far. I do not think you are a monster though,  I do recall that in your day this was considered good parenting. It is not anymore.


For me, as a mother I would never be okay with anyone hitting my child, least of all the father or mother.




#40    Sherapy

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 11:44 PM

View Postredhen, on 04 March 2013 - 11:35 PM, said:

Yes, I've tried to explain this.  My new avatar is the Jain symbol. I believe the Sanskrit means "non-violence is the paramount teaching" (ahimsa paramo dharma). I take that as the ideal to strive towards.It does not mean you can abuse and walk all over Jains. I think what's missing in the use of the word violence in this thread is the qualifier unnecessary.  I probably take this to extremes, according to many UM'ers. I believe that eating meat (in a modern agricultural society) is unnecessary, and thus killing animals to consume them is by definition, cruel. I just mention this to balance out my previous statement about prior military experience. I'm not some kind of sadist.

That said, smacking a child on the hand to modify his behavior, for his own safety, is sometimes necessary.

How?

View PostSherapy, on 04 March 2013 - 11:40 PM, said:

IMO, hitting kids is not the best way to educate/teach our children, I think when we say I am hitting you because I love you will teach a child that hitting is an acceptable way to deal with conflict. It is not (in the real world) and we do not hit each other to deal with issues.


We ourselves as the parent must model civility and personal discipline, any kind of hitting on a defenseless child would be a huge issue for me.and I would call it abuse  IMO. As the parent we are supposed to protect them even when it is from ourselves.
I do not see a difference between corporal punishment and abuse and I think if we hit we have gone to far. I do not think you are a monster though,  I do recall that in your day this was considered good parenting. It is not anymore.


For me, as a mother I would never be okay with anyone hitting my child, least of all the father or mother. there are many ways to modify unwanted behavior that do not involve hitting.





#41    Michelle

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 12:07 AM

Please, explain to us, Sheri, how to reason with a toddler, that has no command of the English language, that what they are doing could kill or severely injure them.


#42    IamsSon

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 02:04 AM

View Postshadowhive, on 04 March 2013 - 11:36 PM, said:

Ah yes, because those things are in any way comparable.

Look I'm against people harming children for anything other than medical reasons. You amy see corporal punishment as a good thing, but you know what? It takes disipline not to take it too far, not to turn it into abuse. You may have that discipline because of your army training but you know what? Not everyone posessses that. Some people will go too far, or beat their their kids for the slightest infraction.

Kids are vulnerable so excuse me for not wanting them hurt. I must be a terrible human being to not want that musn't I?

If you're going to promote corporate punishment then a: how do you ensure people don't go too far and b: how do you ensure abuse isn't misinterpreted as 'disipline'?
Ahh, but they are quite similar.  You see, you should not regulate ANYTHING simply because someone might not be responsible enough, because that is the same as punishing the innocent.  You punish the criminals, not all of society.

"But then with me that horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin, in a letter to William Graham on July 3, 1881

#43    Kazahel

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 02:47 AM

I'm very much against corporal punishment and the people who have been here long enough would probably know my views on this already. There are always these examples of power cords and things but I think you just have to change your environment inorder to allow for a safe area for the toddler. Anotherwords instead of smacking your toddler for grabbing a knife, make sure that knives are placed in a spot where the toddler cannot get them. Same for poisons.. most know to put these away from toddlers so to smack a toddler for finding something dangerous as a way to learn is somewhat ironic. Would you punish your toddler for finding the poison or should you punish yourself for allowing them to in the first place?

So thats pretty much what I think in regards to dangerous situations. You need to keep things out of reach until they are old enough to explain the dangers to.

I've also said over the years that we as adults dont hit each other as punishment because its classed as assault. So I dont understand why anyone would teach their child that when someone does something wrong we hit them. When they get older they are supposed to not use violence and to communicate to solve problems(especially at school), so teaching kids by hitting them is a strange way to start teaching them to not use violence.

Anyway I've never had to smack my son ever and he is turning 12 this year. I've not even had a time where I wouldve thought to. And thats absolute truth. I havent even needed to use time out or anything. So I dont have a punishment set up. I guess once in a blue moon I might threaten no computer games if he forgets to do something in regards to homework but I cant remember any times where I've had follow up on it. He likes his games so he remembers to bring homework home and things like this so he can continue doing the things he enjoys. And I think I've only threatened no games maybe once or twice.

I should also add that since he was born I've been a full time father for him. So my ex wife went back to work and I stayed home to look after him. My wife left when he was only two and I've looked after him during the week days ever since(he goes to his mums on the weekends). So I'm a single father and I think of raising my son as my full time job and I always have. He's also doing very well at school and goes to a gifted school.So he is thriving and punishment is something I've never really had to use.

So I basically think if you have to punish a kid to the extent where you have to hit them, then you're doing something wrong in the frist place.

Edited by Kazahel, 05 March 2013 - 02:48 AM.


#44    Paranoid Android

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 06:17 AM

I think we all agree that abusing a child is wrong.  We just don't necessarily all agree that spankings qualify as abuse.  For those who have referred to the current view of the field of psychology, they also agree 100% with the general consensus that abuse of a child is wrong.  However, contrary to several comments here, the current psychological consensus appears to be split virtually 50/50 in the question of whether spanking is helpful or harmful.  For every psychologist that says it teaches that violence is an acceptable way to solve conflict, you'll find another psychologist who disagrees and sees no problem with spankings - provided they do not cross the line from punishment to abuse.

That said, I'm confused as to whether this thread was originally aimed at corporal punishment in the household with children, or whether it was referring to our Justice System/s (eg, ten lashes for break-and-enters - that's just a random example).

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#45    White Crane Feather

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 07:04 AM

It's funny all this talk of training good soldiers. Does anyone realize that the military does not practice corporal punishment?

Even this attitude of peoples undisciplined "brats" running around seeths with intolerance and aggression. I have given solid examples of cultures that are highly disciplined yet do not use pain as a deterrent, and who behave just fine. People have this illusion that kids that are spanked are somehow more disciplined and controlled. BS. I could not find anything to support that, and plenty of kids do just fine without it. In my community probably a very few hit their kids, and by and large they are all well behaved aside from the normal age appropriate energy, and I know probably more kids in my community than anyone else

Does any one who is for it actually care about actual research and psychological studies on children and the effects it has on them and their decisions and choices. What is your basis for claiming that it is more effective than non violent methods? I hope it's not your observing of these "brats" running all over the place. Because we eat out at least once a week, and I don't see them. My kids are certainly not allowed to behave this way and I don't hit them.

No matter which way you spin it, causing pain to another person to get them to comply is violent. It might be mildly violent, but studies have shown that defiant children build up tolerances to physical punishment forcing the parent to upgrade their abuse to achieve the desired results.  

The majority of doctors, phsycologists, and actual scientists pretty much agree on the issue. Are you going to let your kid scarff down candy? Are you going to feed them cup o noodles, burgers, and pizza everyday? Why not? Because you know it's unhealthy because we now have actual data that tells us this. But you will still strike your kid because it was done to you, and you consider yourself well adjusted. I have seen the responses of people on this thread advocating punishing kids with pain... ;) im not buying it.

http://www.slate.com...re_the_rod.html

http://www.scienceda...10726111109.htm

http://www.scientifi...or-not-to-spank


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