58 replies to this topic

[orangepeaceful79]

OrdinaryClay, on 21 October 2012 - 04:50 PM, said:

Your definition is the definition of an "Internet skeptic". A true skeptic would simply require evidence. Full Stop.

OC - I think where you and I differ the most is on our own feelings regarding what is and what isn't evidence.  As I understand your position on the definition of evidence - you refer to eyewitness accounts as evidence.  I view them more as anecdotal evidence.  
http://grammar.about...necdoteterm.htm

I cannot accept anecdotal evidence as proof.  You can.  We disagree, and that is OK.

[C235]

orangepeaceful79, on 21 October 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

OC - I think where you and I differ the most is on our own feelings regarding what is and what isn't evidence.  As I understand your position on the definition of evidence - you refer to eyewitness accounts as evidence.  I view them more as anecdotal evidence.  
http://grammar.about...necdoteterm.htm

I cannot accept anecdotal evidence as proof.  You can.  We disagree, and that is OK.

Last time I tired to get evidence from Demons I was being hurled in mid-air. I just wanted a sample of their blood

[OrdinaryClay]

orangepeaceful79, on 21 October 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

OC - I think where you and I differ the most is on our own feelings regarding what is and what isn't evidence.  As I understand your position on the definition of evidence - you refer to eyewitness accounts as evidence.  I view them more as anecdotal evidence.  
http://grammar.about...necdoteterm.htm

I cannot accept anecdotal evidence as proof.  You can.  We disagree, and that is OK.

No, I never said anything bout anecdotal evidence. As I clearly, and unambiguously stated here I do not accept such evidence.. I accept the same evidence the court systems of every culture in history has, and still does, accept. Vetted and corroborated testimony. This is the same evidence you as a juror would be expected to accept if you were called to be a juror and the same evidence you would expect other jurors to accept if your loved ones were victims of a crime.

[OrdinaryClay]

Sakari, on 21 October 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

Hmm.

Do you see anything wrong with studying up on what Psychologists have to say about Demons and such?

Is it not better to  have knowledge of a certain topic in as many areas as possible?

Or is it better to just ignore the ones you do not want to " believe " because they do not fit your " wants " ?

Ignoring facts on anything, just to keep your " belief " strong is extremely ignorant, actually it is flat out stupid to do.

If you have all of the facts, and have everything there is to know about something, you can then start to take things out of the equation. If you do not, you are just going off of blind faith.

This is why the faux skepticism brought about by materialism is so ludicrous. It simply begs the question, and assumes the non-existence of the supernatural and claims this is evidence for its non-existence.

[orangepeaceful79]

OrdinaryClay, on 21 October 2012 - 10:04 PM, said:

No, I never said anything bout anecdotal evidence. As I clearly, and unambiguously stated here I do not accept such evidence.. I accept the same evidence the court systems of every culture in history has, and still does, accept. Vetted and corroborated testimony. This is the same evidence you as a juror would be expected to accept if you were called to be a juror and the same evidence you would expect other jurors to accept if your loved ones were victims of a crime.

Ok - I hear what you are saying.  I'm trying to understand you better.  Could you give me an example of what in your opinion would be vetted and corroborated evidence for the paranormal?  Because I'm trying to remember if I've ever seen any around here at the site, and i can't think of any.  Please though, I'd like to understand this further.

[OrdinaryClay]

orangepeaceful79, on 21 October 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

Ok - I hear what you are saying.  I'm trying to understand you better.  Could you give me an example of what in your opinion would be vetted and corroborated evidence for the paranormal?  Because I'm trying to remember if I've ever seen any around here at the site, and i can't think of any.  Please though, I'd like to understand this further.

Okay, I'm trying to understand you better, too. Do you agree eye-witness testimony can be acceptable evidence?

[orangepeaceful79]

OrdinaryClay, on 22 October 2012 - 12:02 AM, said:

Okay, I'm trying to understand you better, too. Do you agree eye-witness testimony can be acceptable evidence?

Honestly that's why I asked you what you consider to be vetted and corroborated.  Maybe you've thought of something I haven't.  I keep saying I have a mind that is open to new things.  I mean that.  That is why I asked for a specific example of vetted and corroborated eyewitness testimony of a paranormal phenomenon.  I'm not asking so I can try and take apart your argument.  I'm just asking because I want to see how this concept fits within the parameters of what I can believe.   Until you give an example my answer is "I don't know".

[JamieSymptom]

Poindexter, on 02 October 2012 - 04:19 AM, said:

Evening peeples

This is the First time I have posted on here and I am after some information on the Titled subject

Firstly do Demons exist, and if so

No they don't

Poindexter, on 02 October 2012 - 04:19 AM, said:

Can Demons Kill, note Plural

No

Poindexter, on 02 October 2012 - 04:19 AM, said:

Can Demons invade your body and damage your internal organs, to the point Medical Science knows the Ailment, re Kidney Disease, but, are unable to cure you

No, but real diseases can

Poindexter, on 02 October 2012 - 04:19 AM, said:

Do Demons protect their Host

Not applicable, demons do not exist

Poindexter, on 02 October 2012 - 04:19 AM, said:

Will Demons attack, if they reguard their Host is under threat

Not applicable, demons do not exist

Poindexter, on 02 October 2012 - 04:19 AM, said:

Can Demon's  "JUMP" from one Host to another

Not applicable, demons do not exist

Poindexter, on 02 October 2012 - 04:19 AM, said:

Do Demons need to be invited to Possess a Host, if so,, how is this done

Not applicable, demons do not exist

Poindexter, on 02 October 2012 - 04:19 AM, said:

Does a Host know if they have been "invaded"

Not applicable, demons do not exist

Poindexter, on 02 October 2012 - 04:19 AM, said:

Can a Possessed Host enter a Church

Anyone can enter a church, as long as the door is not locked.

Poindexter, on 02 October 2012 - 04:19 AM, said:

Finally how does one get rid of 'unwanted' Demons

Unnecessary, demons do not exist

Poindexter, on 02 October 2012 - 04:19 AM, said:

Thanx for any Input or Knowledge

PS... Have no interest in the Movie Version of Demons or the Views and Opinions of Skeptics

Apologies, but you must at least acknowledge the skeptical view as it is the most likely to be correct. You are quite correct to ignore movies.

[MysticStrummer]

Hello Sakari.

You completely ignored the part where I said it was fine to offer plausible alternative explanations. My problem is with people that either just skip over the parts they can't explain or call the person a liar. Some things that happen in these cases aren't explainable by mental illness, but those parts of a person's account are more often than not ignored or called lies by sceptics on this site and others like it.

Also, though I know I've said this before and you keep posting it anyway, your list of exorcism deaths doesn't disprove the reality of possession and exorcism any more than a list of successful exorcisms would prove it's all true.

[MysticStrummer]

Sakari, on 21 October 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

If you have all of the facts, and have everything there is to know about something, you can then start to take things out of the equation. If you do not, you are just going off of blind faith.

This applies to both believers and sceptics. There aren't many subjects where it can be said that all the facts are known, and both mental illness and possession certainly fall into that category. To look at a case and discount either one completely is indeed foolish, but both believers and sceptics are guilty of that at times. In both instances the reaction is based on belief, not in a complete understanding of all the facts.

[coldethyl]

MysticStrummer, on 21 October 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

<p>
As you can see, sceptics on a site like this have no interest in your lack of interest in their opinions. You can post a fairly detailed personal experience and they'll focus on the parts which could have an alternative explanation, which is fine, but they'll also either ignore the parts they can't explain or call you a liar. Some will post lists of unrelated facts and declare the case closed. Some will respond only with sarcasm. Anyway, I'm not sure most of your questions have a definitive answer but I do believe beings exist which various cultures call "demons".

No offense, but people who come and tell their stories do the same thing.
A 'skeptic' (hate labels) can suggest some other possible explanation and the OP will absolutely deny any and all reason that the explanation could be anything BUT paranormal:

We have no cats in our neighborhood
All our wiring is new
No one can get into our backyard
Everyone was asleep and never plays jokes
Squirrels can't get in my attic ever
There are no power lines near my house
Etc.

I think both parties can be civil but just get frustrated, IMO.

[MysticStrummer]

coldethyl, on 22 October 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

No offense, but people who come and tell their stories do the same thing.
A 'skeptic' (hate labels) can suggest some other possible explanation and the OP will absolutely deny any and all reason that the explanation could be anything BUT paranormal:

Absolutely true. No offense taken. I would say though, that I don't often see a believer call a sceptic a liar when they suggest an alternative explanation. Saying a person is wrong or closed minded is very different from saying they are delusional or a liar.

[OrdinaryClay]

orangepeaceful79, on 22 October 2012 - 12:17 AM, said:

Honestly that's why I asked you what you consider to be vetted and corroborated.  Maybe you've thought of something I haven't.  I keep saying I have a mind that is open to new things.  I mean that.  That is why I asked for a specific example of vetted and corroborated eyewitness testimony of a paranormal phenomenon.  I'm not asking so I can try and take apart your argument.  I'm just asking because I want to see how this concept fits within the parameters of what I can believe.   Until you give an example my answer is "I don't know".

See this post http://www.unexplain...45#entry4509891

A professional, a prison warden, a police officer in the line of duty, and multiple corroborating civilian witnesses.

[SSilhouette]

Quote

Firstly do Demons exist

Yes, they do.

Quote

, and if so

Can Demons Kill, note Plural

Yes, they can.

Quote

Can Demons invade your body and damage your internal organs, to the point Medical Science knows the Ailment, re Kidney Disease, but, are unable to cure you

Yes.

Quote

Do Demons protect their Host

Absolutely. In fact, the people most infested seem to live well beyond years they should, with personal behaviors that would normally kill others. Behaviors like excessive drinking, drugs, etc. The old adage "only the good die young" is not based on a flimsy foundation. People have noticed over time that evil people infested tend to outlive those less malignant in personality.

Quote

Will Demons attack, if they reguard their Host is under threat

Beyond a shadow of a doubt. In fact, if you start to battle their stronghold in a person or group of people or political body, be prepared for the onslaught of your life.

Quote

Can Demon's "JUMP" from one Host to another

Yes. I know a sensitive person and he has an acquaintance who is infested. When I see this sensitive just after his visit to his acquaintance, he acts like a complete stranger until he shakes it off. He acts as if he is the acquaintance. Usually that requires my doing a remote blessing on him.

Quote

Do Demons need to be invited to Possess a Host, if so,, how is this done

No. In fact, they have made an art form out of anesthetizing their targets until the assimilation is complete and completely unnoticed by the host.

Quote

Does a Host know if they have been "invaded"

Almost never

Quote

Can a Possessed Host enter a Church

If a place is truly sanctified and not just a social gathering place of hypocrites, a demon cannot enter...or finds the atmosphere there nearly as toxic to itself as sulfur gas would be for us to breathe. Once my son and I had to take an infested woman to see the doctor. This woman made my flesh crawl but the obligation was unshakeable. So I blessed the cab of my truck before she entered. When she rode to the doctor she seemed unusually friendly and kind...a thing she almost never is. I wrote it off to the sobering aspect of her doctor visit. As she was coming back to the truck while my son and I waited for her, I suddenly felt a strong buzzing noise in my right ear, like a pressure wave was hitting my eardrum. Instantly there was a loud WHACK!! on the back window of the cab. We looked out astonished. No bird, no rock, nothing. The back of the truck faced a completely empty cow pasture. The demon could not come in the cab. It had preceded her, so my conclusion is they orbit around their host instead of always being "inside" them proper.

Quote

Finally how does one get rid of 'unwanted' Demons

By blessings. It sounds trite but that's really how you do it. The people afflicted must undergo a spiritual deepening. It doesn't matter what faith or line of belief, only that you believe in a loving spirit that protects. I've had really good success with blessing places, people, things. But you cannot have any hate. The idea is to create a poisonous environment that demons will avoid like the plague. Some cases are really hard.

But in all cases, an atmosphere or intent of unconditional relaxed love is truly noxious to a demon.  It's not that they become less powerful, only that they simply cannot stand the atmosphere.  Like putting Mr. Universe on the moon and saying to him "now breathe"...

Edited by SSilhouette, 23 October 2012 - 03:59 AM.

[coldethyl]

MysticStrummer, on 22 October 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

Absolutely true. No offense taken. I would say though, that I don't often see a believer call a sceptic a liar when they suggest an alternative explanation. Saying a person is wrong or closed minded is very different from saying they are delusional or a liar.

Well not everyone jumps to liar or delusional either.  I have seen OP's loose their grips and call names then ask their favorite question: "why do you post here if you don't believe?" right after asking for advice.

I guess it is dependent on the person and who can be respectful of others and who can keep their cool and not be offensive.  Also, who can be open to advice and who can be open to the alternative.

I usually am trying to be helpful to the OP and am trying to give alternative suggestions to the paranormal.  It's unbelievable how many times people have discovered sleep paralysis from this message board alone and have been so relieved.  BION I came here as a believer all those years ago; what really changed me to be more skeptical was the incredulous stories that OP's would post then accept no logical explanation for.  Not even the entire story, maybe just one part of it, such as a noise or even an explanation of SP.

I dunno, maybe I'm just jaded.