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Ben Shalom Bernanke: What Are You Afraid Of?


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#61    preacherman76

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 11:40 AM

Bottom line, a economy based of consumption and debt is unsustainable. We produce next to nothing. Even go so far as to use tax payers money to move American companies over sea's. Anyone who would use our own money to remove production and jobs over sea's has nothing but bad intentions. Any fool can see that.

Some things are true, even if you dont believe them.

#62    Render

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 11:41 AM

View Postpreacherman76, on 22 June 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:

Well on this subject myself and Yam happen to be of the same mind. But my opinions are my own, and would be the same regardless of whether he was even in this conversation. My opinions on this subject are formed from economists who have proven themself credible, cause of thier acuracy.

Your opinions aren't related to this subject, so it seems. Because your opinion is not to believe Bernanke, but there's no "believing". The public data is well known, hence the reaction of the stocks.


#63    Render

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 11:50 AM

View Postpreacherman76, on 22 June 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

Bottom line, a economy based of consumption and debt is unsustainable. We produce next to nothing. Even go so far as to use tax payers money to move American companies over sea's. Anyone who would use our own money to remove production and jobs over sea's has nothing but bad intentions. Any fool can see that.

The American economy has very strong assets coming up.
Also the talk of cutting the tax breaks for companies that go overseas is good to certain extent. And actually a lot of companies have already come back to the US. This will pay off...
Then you have the whole natural gas thing. Man, if they get that in place. This is superpower stuff.

You shouldn't also discount consumer sentiment. Ppl their views are changing, you can feel it. Espcially in the markets, there is persistent optimism...and i do hope it holds, but it will be dependant of the upcoming data.
(which means it correlates with the economy, yamato). And since QE isn't holding back for the time being, i don't see any reason for the numbers to suddenly turn up negative.


#64    preacherman76

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 11:53 AM

Bottom line, a economy based of consumption and debt is unsustainable. We produce next to nothing. Even go so far as to use tax payers money to move American companies over sea's. Anyone who would use our own money to remove production and jobs over sea's has nothing but bad intentions. Any fool can see that.

View PostRender, on 22 June 2013 - 11:38 AM, said:

The US wan't left much choice. For the time being QE seems to have been the right decision. Unless you wanted several lost generations.
We will see in 2014 how it works out. The US isn't really losing much credibility, since the rest of the world is doing much worse for the time being. The EU will come back strong eventually, hopefully around 2014 (more likely around 2015) we'll see the beginning so if the US goes through a tough time then at least the EU will level it off a bit (by buying a lot from the US for example...the EU-US trade will show some cards in this). China is falling and falling ... that's gonna be interesting, once it collapses, they'll be rewriting record history.

We had a choice. We were just told we didnt have one. Instead of proping up failed corupted companies, we should have taken the hit, and let those companies die. Yes it would have cause a sever recession, but the market would have corrected the situation by now. Others would have taken thier place by now, and hopefully learned a great lesson from what they just saw. Instead we sent every major company in the country a message that you can be as corupted as you want, right up till you destroy said company, and we will force the tax payer to bail you out. Instead we face the same problems, on top of a debt that we cant pay the interest on. If they were really interested in fixing the problem at the time, they would have thrown away unfair, and down right treasonis trade agreements with countries like China, and found a way to compete with production on the world stage. Exposing China for the slave masters they are would have gone along way in helping that. We should have also put huge tariffs on Chinas products in the same way they do to anything we try to sell them. We have to find a way to produce. There is no way we can continue to spend, borrowing 40 cents for every dollar made, while at the same time having no way to produce a income. QE was never meant to fix anything. It was meant to put the finnal nails in our economic coffin.

Some things are true, even if you dont believe them.

#65    Render

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 11:59 AM

View Postpreacherman76, on 22 June 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

Bottom line, a economy based of consumption and debt is unsustainable. We produce next to nothing. Even go so far as to use tax payers money to move American companies over sea's. Anyone who would use our own money to remove production and jobs over sea's has nothing but bad intentions. Any fool can see that.


We had a choice. We were just told we didnt have one. Instead of proping up failed corupted companies, we should have taken the hit, and let those companies die. Yes it would have cause a sever recession, but the market would have corrected the situation by now.

I think you are heavily mistaking there.
It most likely would now have corrected by now and would continued to drag through for another while.
This was not just another difficult period to go through and voila, after 5 years we'd all be doing fine. Look at Europe, look at the rest...it;s not that easy.

View Postpreacherman76, on 22 June 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

Others would have taken thier place by now, and hopefully learned a great lesson from what they just saw.

It's not about just taking their place, it doesn't work that way. There has to be consumer confidence as well. Which wouldn't just pop up in the middle of a heavy recession. It only pops up if everything shows signs of recovering. And the market wouldn't have just pulled itself together, it was way too destroyed for that.

View Postpreacherman76, on 22 June 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

Instead we sent every major company in the country a message that you can be as corupted as you want, right up till you destroy said company, and we will force the tax payer to bail you out.

Actually they said. "You ****ed us, be with also did it to ourselves, because we didn't take care of policies that made everything transparant enough. So now, not to screw the next generations because of our stupid mistakes, we'll stimulate the economy."

View Postpreacherman76, on 22 June 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

Instead we face the same problems, on top of a debt that we cant pay the interest on. If they were really interested in fixing the problem at the time, they would have thrown away unfair, and down right treasonis trade agreements with countries like China, and found a way to compete with production on the world stage. Exposing China for the slave masters they are would have gone along way in helping that. We should have also put huge tariffs on Chinas products in the same way they do to anything we try to sell them. We have to find a way to produce. There is no way we can continue to spend, borrowing 40 cents for every dollar made, while at the same time having no way to produce a income. QE was never meant to fix anything. It was meant to put the finnal nails in our economic coffin.

QE is meant to built up a strong resistant economy, that can take a hit. In the mean time other things are being established which i mentioned earlier. Companies coming back home, natural gas, US-EU trade agreement. And more things....
They are not out to destroy anything, they are out to fix it, how desperately it may seem.


#66    preacherman76

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 12:07 PM

View PostRender, on 22 June 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

Your opinions aren't related to this subject, so it seems. Because your opinion is not to believe Bernanke, but there's no "believing". The public data is well known, hence the reaction of the stocks.

The public data (which often is nothing more then cooked books. Just look at the unemployment numbers they continue to misslead people with) doesnt bring much comfort to me. Especialy considering the public data looked amazing just before the crash of 08. I cant stress this enough. The stock market should never ever be used as a measuring stick to judged how well the economy is doing. The stock market is based on faith. If something is untrue, then regardless of the amount of faith placed in it, it will eventualy be found incorrect. They have suckered lots of people into believing that its safe to return to the market. Its just another tool to drain the wealth of this country even further. And frankly Im amazed people bought it. People are buying stock, while at the same time hearing how the fed is considering "borrowing" the pensions of the people as a alternative to QE, or just another form of QE. Look at what happened in Cyprus(sp?). They went so far as to steal peoples bank accounts. Didnt even try to say they would pay the money back. Just took it. Same thing will happen here. Accept it wont be bank accounts. It will be pensions.

Some things are true, even if you dont believe them.

#67    Render

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 12:17 PM

View Postpreacherman76, on 22 June 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

The public data (which often is nothing more then cooked books. Just look at the unemployment numbers they continue to misslead people with) doesnt bring much comfort to me. Especialy considering the public data looked amazing just before the crash of 08. I cant stress this enough. The stock market should never ever be used as a measuring stick to judged how well the economy is doing.


Which is absolutely not what im doing, or anybody else for that matter. Read my previous posts. "madness of stocks" "stock market starting to correlate more and more with the economy". Etc . And the stock market speculates for what is to come, not what is. That's how it works. Fear and panic. it's annoying.

And the data was looking good in 2008 because no one had insight in other data what banks were truly doing. It was protected, which was extremely idiotic. Because banks just ran with it. Now it has nothing to do with that. It has everything to do with the public data.

View Postpreacherman76, on 22 June 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

They have suckered lots of people into believing that its safe to return to the market.

Pay attention to the markets, the exact opposite is true. There was a heavy bullish sentiment, which is now turning in more cautious sentiment once hints of loosening QE were dropped. The data is now more and more important.
Read analysis, learn about how it reacts, investors aren't retards. Look at prospects, look at what is expected and how the data falls in line. They know what's behind the data. Hence the votality.
This is also what a positive trend entails. If numbers are fake or not consistent it will show the coming months. That's why a truly positive trend hasn't broke through before, always followed by another bear market.
You can't fake consistency. Therés now still worry because of the uneven recovery in the numbers..job reports, unemployment, home sales ,etc ... if they can align themselves. That will be another positive sign. And then it has to keep it up, consistency. Then the economy will be strong, strong enough to pay of debt, strong enough to go at it without QE. That's the whole point.

View Postpreacherman76, on 22 June 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

Its just another tool to drain the wealth of this country even further. And frankly Im amazed people bought it. People are buying stock, while at the same time hearing how the fed is considering "borrowing" the pensions of the people as a alternative to QE, or just another form of QE.

Look at WHAT KIND of stocks ppl are buying into, that's what;s important. Look at the ones that are being shorted the most. Those are hints.

Edited by Render, 22 June 2013 - 12:30 PM.


#68    preacherman76

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 12:20 PM

View PostRender, on 22 June 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

I think you are heavily mistaking there.
It most likely would now have corrected by now and would continued to drag through for another while.
This was not just another difficult period to go through and voila, after 5 years we'd all be doing fine. Look at Europe, look at the rest...it;s not that easy.



It's not about just taking their place, it doesn't work that way. There has to be consumer confidence as well. Which wouldn't just pop up in the middle of a heavy recession. It only pops up if everything shows signs of recovering. And the market wouldn't have just pulled itself together, it was way too destroyed for that.



Actually they said. "You ****ed us, be with also did it to ourselves, because we didn't take care of policies that made everything transparant enough. So now, not to screw the next generations because of our stupid mistakes, we'll stimulate the economy."



QE is meant to built up a strong resistant economy, that can take a hit. In the mean time other things are being established which i mentioned earlier. Companies coming back home, natural gas, US-EU trade agreement. And more things....
They are not out to destroy anything, they are out to fix it, how desperately it may seem.


Im gonna have to respond to this later Ren. I have to get my butt moving and go to work. It was good talking to you though, once we got over the rock throwing. Have a great day.

Some things are true, even if you dont believe them.

#69    Render

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 12:23 PM

View Postpreacherman76, on 22 June 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

Im gonna have to respond to this later Ren. I have to get my butt moving and go to work. It was good talking to you though, once we got over the rock throwing. Have a great day.

You too have a good day.


#70    Yamato

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 06:41 PM

Repeating your baseless claim until you're sick to your stomach doesn't make you right, render.  Stocks are correlating less with the economy the longer these artificial conditions continue because the economy is being held up under forces that would never exist without the force control of the Federal Reserve system.   The error term grows greater and greater the longer this charade continues.

So the Fed are day traders now?   We have to listen to the Fed and then look what stocks people are buying and shorting?   How about we just look at what stocks people are buying and shorting and skip the beloved Hand of God altogether?   Anyone with this many words to defend central planners with this much power over the markets and the economy has no interest in freedom whatsoever.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
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#71    Render

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 07:54 AM

View PostYamato, on 22 June 2013 - 06:41 PM, said:

Repeating your baseless claim until you're sick to your stomach doesn't make you right, render.  Stocks are correlating less with the economy the longer these artificial conditions continue because the economy is being held up under forces that would never exist without the force control of the Federal Reserve system.   The error term grows greater and greater the longer this charade continues.

So the Fed are day traders now?   We have to listen to the Fed and then look what stocks people are buying and shorting?   How about we just look at what stocks people are buying and shorting and skip the beloved Hand of God altogether?   Anyone with this many words to defend central planners with this much power over the markets and the economy has no interest in freedom whatsoever.

For the last, freaking, time:

Myself said:

See it this way: A person wants to train for streetfight, he's weak and has no energy(the economy). Along comes someone who says "let's kickstart your training with some energy drinks" (QE). Then after a while this person gains muscle mass and his body is producing it's own levels of energy required to keep going. So his energy drinks are no longer needed, but since he's kinda addicted to them now, he'll slowly build down. At the same time he continues training and gaining muscle mass...and finally he cuts of the energy drinks because his body (the economy) is strong enough on its own.
He may feel a bit insecure about doing it without his energy drinks, but realises he wont lose his muscle mass from one day to the next. So he keeps training with what he got and his performance may slip for a while, but then he'll level off on what he's naturally capable off. And from that point he can start gaining more muscle mass on his own.

So even if the energy drink (QE) stops, that doesn't make the gained muscle mass is any less real. It doesn't just disappear.
But hey, since you are so smart, maybe you should tell the top of the country what you know. :rolleyes:


And wtf are you saying about the Feds being daytraders? Did you get that from a post i wrote to preacherman? You simply do not understand what is being written. It's super obvious ok. So just leave it. You're not doing yourself any favors by picking up these parts of sentences and trying to form an opinion over them. Just leave it be and move along.


#72    Yamato

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 09:49 AM

View PostRender, on 24 June 2013 - 07:54 AM, said:

For the last, freaking, time:



So even if the energy drink (QE) stops, that doesn't make the gained muscle mass is any less real. It doesn't just disappear.
But hey, since you are so smart, maybe you should tell the top of the country what you know. :rolleyes:


And wtf are you saying about the Feds being daytraders? Did you get that from a post i wrote to preacherman? You simply do not understand what is being written. It's super obvious ok. So just leave it. You're not doing yourself any favors by picking up these parts of sentences and trying to form an opinion over them. Just leave it be and move along.
Gains made on debt creation aren't sustainable because when the debt is being paid back with interest, the cost of all that borrowing is going to be much greater than not having the artificial growth piled on in the first place.

Will you stop saying "the Feds".  wtf are you talking about?  Nobody is using that language but you.   You're trying desperately giving all this lipstick lip service to the Fed on my thread and then you're talking about buying and shorting stocks?   What I'm saying is, what does the Fed have to do with that?   People are buying and selling stocks anyway.  They don't need your central planners in their marble halls for that too.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#73    Yamato

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 09:51 AM

Move along.  Everything's fine.  Nothing to see here.   Normal interest rates servicing an abnormal amount of debt?    Hurr durr...what's the problem?


"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#74    Render

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 10:18 AM

View PostYamato, on 25 June 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

Will you stop saying "the Feds".  wtf are you talking about?  Nobody is using that language but you.   You're trying desperately giving all this lipstick lip service to the Fed on my thread and then you're talking about buying and shorting stocks?   What I'm saying is, what does the Fed have to do with that?   People are buying and selling stocks anyway.  They don't need your central planners in their marble halls for that too.

Posted Image

Yeah, you're right. You started a thread about Bernanke. Which is totally unrelated to the Feds. Yup Bernanke and the Feds have nothing to do with each other. :lol:
And bringing up the stock market? Yeah ... you see through it all, Bernanke, the Feds and the stock market ... completely unrelated.

Lets just talk about Bernanke's fear. Maybe he wasn't hugged enough as a child?


#75    Yamato

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 06:38 PM

View PostRender, on 25 June 2013 - 10:18 AM, said:


Posted Image

Yeah, you're right. You started a thread about Bernanke. Which is totally unrelated to the Feds. Yup Bernanke and the Feds have nothing to do with each other. :lol:
And bringing up the stock market? Yeah ... you see through it all, Bernanke, the Feds and the stock market ... completely unrelated.

Lets just talk about Bernanke's fear. Maybe he wasn't hugged enough as a child?
Now I think I know what it is, your language is incorrect.   It's not "the Feds" for short, it's the Fed.   In order to use the correct language, when you refer to "the Feds" you aren't referring to the Federal Reserve System you're referring to the entire federal government.   So then, when the FBI or the Men in Black show up at your door, it's not the Fed, it's the feds.

The only criticism of Santelli I have is that he waits until the stock market plummets over 200 points in a day before releasing his rant.   Now in his defense, he will say that no, he was reacting to Ben Bernanke's speech.  But we've heard that speech before.  Ben Bernanke didn't say anything new, and Rick Santelli never screamed like that then.  It's stocks going down that Rick Santelli can't stand, and of course, a hundred million Americans and especially those a few years from retirement aren't going to be able to stand it either.

All you've offered as a plausible reason for more of your QE energy drink is that the economy is still too weak not to keep drinking it.   But you're using a sports metaphor to avoid answering the question I posed in the OP.   The entitlement complex of you liberals in this 21st century is truly boundless.   We've recovered from a recession every four years in this nation and we never needed an entitlement complex to the children's money in order to distort the entire marketplace with artificial and unsustainable growth.  We've heard of the best generation who lived in the 2nd quarter of the 20th century.   Yours is going to go down in history as the worst generation once this ponzi scheme comes home to roost.  

Barack Obama ought to appoint Bernie Madoff as the next Fed Chairman.  At least Madoff can admit what it is.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi




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