311 replies to this topic

[Arbenol68]

The 'Atheists in foxholes' argument is so weak, it's almost funny that it keeps getting trotted out. What point is it that they're trying to make? What is says to me is that when people are desperate / scared they are more likely to take a punt on the irrational. That's not really news, is it?

And as a previous poster said, there are examples of atheists who have stuck to their principles right to the end. It has more to do with how ready you are to go when the time comes. And the argument will get you no nearer to what is actual truth as opposed to wishful thinking.

Edited by Arbenol68, 12 July 2012 - 12:51 PM.

[karmakazi]

navymight, on 12 July 2012 - 11:09 AM, said:

Relgion of any form is truth,all 5 of the major relgions believe in essessentially in good and evil and that there is a divine presence,call it god or nirvana. Relgion is truth,athiesim is the denial of the truth

The most fundamental ideas behind most religions are moral ideas: distinguishing right from wrong and establishing how one person should treat another person (or themselves) appropriately.  Whether defined as "good" and "evil" or "right" and "wrong", those ideas exist throughout society, religion and culture, but do not require religion to exist.   As was pointed out before, one of those major religions does not believe in a divine presence, and at least two of the others are filled with people who believe in the religion and yet are also atheists.or agnostics.

Atheism is not denial of the truth; it is acknowledgement that there is no proof of what religion claims to be truth.  

Don't get me started about the amount of denial that exists within religion.  I could go on for days.

navymight, on 12 July 2012 - 11:31 AM, said:

You know what always has amazed about people who say they except death, it is that none of them are dying, so they really can not say that they do not fear death.

No, that is an assumption on your part.   Some of us don't fear death because we understand that it is inevitable.  Everyone goes there.  No one escapes.  There is no point in fearing something that is coming to you one way or another.  Also, you don't have to be dying to understand that death can be right around the corner.  In my 30 some years I've had some accidents that could have been fatal if just a few small factors were tweaked.  I don't have to be late in life or have a disease to understand that I could die five minutes from now and never see it coming.

Quote

Carl Sagan may have died a happy athiests, he is in  a minority if there is a hell,i can not imagine he is to happy now.

I still think the assumption that someone can lead a good life and still go to hell just because they didn't believe in a particular religion or any religion is insane.

Especially because this is something most espoused by Christians, when it goes against what Christ taught.

[HerNibs]

Atheist here.  And I'm *mumble* years old.  Let's just say I'm on the "older" scale.

I have been an atheist for a loooooooooooooooooooooong time.  Since about the time I stopped believing in Santa and the Easter Bunny.  

I've been close to death.  To the point everyone (doctors included) were surprised I "pulled through".  Never prayed, never believed, nada.  I was just very sad that I would miss my family.  

Another time during surgery I had a "near death experience".  Well, at least that is what the dr who restarted my heart told me.  No tunnel, no light, no music, nothing.  I would have never known if he hadn't told me.

So no, facing death hasn't changed my stance.  

I'm not an atheist because I'm in denial.  There is nothing to deny.  I'm not an atheist so I can worship myself or go out and kill and do other "horrible" things.  My life is based on the idea of "be kind" and "don't do something you wouldn't want done to you".  Really simple.  After I stopped believing in god/s (with the Easter Bunny and Santa) I was very surprised that people I knew still REALLY believed so I looked into it.  I talked to every religious leader type I could find.  I read as many of the religious books I could.  I meditated.  I studied.  And...I'm still an atheist.

My son is an atheist.  After four tours in the middle east (driving convoy) he is also still an atheist.  Guess he would be a "atheist in a foxhole".

So the OP's ideas don't hold water for me or any of the other atheists I know.

Nibs

[ShadowSot]

Mr Right Wing, on 12 July 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

This topic is like the existance of aliens. Some people are only willing to accept one type of alien civilization exists. Its called being biased.

Somone who was neutral would also be open to the possibility of God existing. Someone who is only prepared to accept atheism is biased. Atheism serves a purpose for them.

As people get older they become wiser. They learn more about the world around them not just the liberal-materialist-atheist bull going around out society. It makes them question things and their focus on questioning is speeded up as their death approaches.

I'm more than willing to accept the possibility of a god. Either the Abrahamic one in it's many variations(terrifying as it might be, dude had a thing for murder, rape, and incest), the version offered by the Sihks, the Hindu concept of the Godhead, or even the different pantheons of the Greeks, Romans, Norse, Chinese, or the tribal dieties of the Native Americans or aborigines in Africa or Australia. Or then the reincarnation wheel of the Buddhists or...
Well frankly the mythology of any of the religions man has dreamt up over the centuries of our collective existence.
I personally love the idea of Anansi singing the world into existence. I find it terribly poetic, and I'm not even one for poetry or to describe things as poetic.

The thing is, I require some evidence. The basis of religious faith, especially when it comes to converting due to fear, has a lot to do with the culture you were raised in. You seem to need a god with a stick to justify doing good, I don't. I don't need a god or afterlife to feel fulfilled.

I wonder how often, when it comes to fear due to impending death, people have converted to the one true religion... whichever one that is at the time?

[Space_Jockey]

What the hell is a 'theist in a foxhole' anyway? Someone who doesn't take any action and waits for god to save him?

[karmakazi]

NM, I was not thinking

Edited by karmakazi, 12 July 2012 - 12:44 PM.

[Habitat]

HerNibs, on 12 July 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

Atheist here.  And I'm *mumble* years old.  Let's just say I'm on the "older" scale.

I have been an atheist for a loooooooooooooooooooooong time.  Since about the time I stopped believing in Santa and the Easter Bunny.  

I've been close to death.  To the point everyone (doctors included) were surprised I "pulled through".  Never prayed, never believed, nada. I was just very sad that I would miss my family.  

Another time during surgery I had a "near death experience".  Well, at least that is what the dr who restarted my heart told me.  No tunnel, no light, no music, nothing.  I would have never known if he hadn't told me.

So no, facing death hasn't changed my stance.  

I'm not an atheist because I'm in denial.  There is nothing to deny.  I'm not an atheist so I can worship myself or go out and kill and do other "horrible" things.  My life is based on the idea of "be kind" and "don't do something you wouldn't want done to you".  Really simple.  After I stopped believing in god/s (with the Easter Bunny and Santa) I was very surprised that people I knew still REALLY believed so I looked into it.  I talked to every religious leader type I could find.  I read as many of the religious books I could.  I meditated.  I studied.  And...I'm still an atheist.

My son is an atheist.  After four tours in the middle east (driving convoy) he is also still an atheist.  Guess he would be a "atheist in a foxhole".

So the OP's ideas don't hold water for me or any of the other atheists I know.

Nibs

Really ?  Was that what you really felt ? Had you said you were sad that your family would be in grief missing you, I believe you would have the answer to this little riddle by now, and I know it is not analagous to the Easter bunny.

[ShadowSot]

karmakazi, on 12 July 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

The saying means that every person near death will suddenly believe in God because they want to be saved.

He was asking what does a theist do in a foxhole.

[eight bits]

OP

I'm not an atheist. Thamk God, I'm "at least agnostic." I'll comment anyway, as if I had an authentic religious perspective, also distinct from theism.

All the experience you cite is based on a small sample drawn from within a single family. Have you consdiered other possible reasons for the phenomenon you remark upon?

Everybody has skin in this game, so we are all plausibly concerned with death, both our own and that of everyone else, especially those we love. It does not follow that theism has any answer for that concern. In fact, I think that some theistic religions manipulate the concern, whether intentionally or fortutitously, into anxiety.

For example, both Christianity and Islam propose individual "judgment" after death to determine some unending emolument or torment. Both offer advice to the living about how to shape the outcome of that judgment, with incompatibility among the various brands on offer. And, regardless, the judgment is individual, so there is nothing I can do to prevent my loved ones from being eternally tortured, or extinguished, or whatever. That's on them alone.

Hmm. Now, the foundation of all the above advice is, your choice, a guy who did magic tricks while telling his followers what God wants, versus another guy who didn't do magic tricks, but told us all what the followers of the first guy got wrong. Why am I exhibiting a medical symptom by thinking that none of this solves any problem that I actually have?

[HerNibs]

Habitat, on 12 July 2012 - 12:37 PM, said:

Really ?  Was that what you really felt ? Had you said you were sad that your family would be in grief missing you, I believe you would have the answer to this little riddle by now, and I know it is not analagous to the Easter bunny.

Yup.  That was how I really felt.  Oh, I was also scared that dying would hurt.  I guess I was sad that they would miss me too but I still wasn't bargaining or talking to any deity.

I don't know what riddle you are talking about.  I wasn't being flippant with the Easter Bunny/Santa stuff.  I really stopped believing in all things "mythical" or "paranormal" about the same type.  With study later on in my life, I cemented my beliefs.

But, I keep an open mind.  If there is evidence of a god/s (or anything else "paranormal") I am willing to change my stance.

Nibs

[karmakazi]

ShadowSot, on 12 July 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

He was asking what does a theist do in a foxhole.

Oooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..... Ooops

[Space_Jockey]

ShadowSot, on 12 July 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

He was asking what does a theist do in a foxhole.

Yup, I was...

This foxhole things applies to people who believe in a higher power as well..

At what point does someone with faith, when facing crisis, 'lose faith in their faith' and think 'well, maybe there isn't a god or (whatever)' ?

I think that could happen as well....

[karmakazi]

Space_Jockey, on 12 July 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

Yup, I was...

This foxhole things applies to people who believe in a higher power as well..

At what point does someone with faith, when facing crisis, 'lose faith in their faith' and think 'well, maybe there isn't a god or (whatever)' ?

I think that could happen as well....

It does happen, though sometimes they keep up the charade of being a believer.  There have been quite a few people who have lost faith because they felt completely abandoned by God.

[Habitat]

HerNibs, on 12 July 2012 - 12:41 PM, said:

Yup.  That was how I really felt.  Oh, I was also scared that dying would hurt.  I guess I was sad that they would miss me too but I still wasn't bargaining or talking to any deity.

I don't know what riddle you are talking about.  I wasn't being flippant with the Easter Bunny/Santa stuff.  I really stopped believing in all things "mythical" or "paranormal" about the same type.  With study later on in my life, I cemented my beliefs.

But, I keep an open mind.  If there is evidence of a god/s (or anything else "paranormal") I am willing to change my stance.

Nibs

Well, as ridiculous as it no doubt sounds, I am firmly convinced that this evidence comes to those who are more concerned for the welfare of something or somebody else, more than they are for themselves, or their own existence.. It is no mystery to me that atheism and egotism are so closely aligned, but I would also include in that many who profess to be believers, such as corrupt clergy and assorted other hypocrites, not simply the declared atheist. The truly righteous are not defined by what they profess to believe in, but by what is in the heart.

[HerNibs]

Habitat, on 12 July 2012 - 01:02 PM, said:

Well, as ridiculous as it no doubt sounds, I am firmly convinced that this evidence comes to those who are more concerned for the welfare of something or somebody else, more than they are for themselves, or their own existence.. It is no mystery to me that atheism and egotism are so closely aligned, but I would also include in that many who profess to be believers, such as corrupt clergy and assorted other hypocrites, not simply the declared atheist. The truly righteous are not defined by what they profess to believe in, but by what is in the heart.

Ok.  I guess I should have been more worried about what my family would go through but sorry, I wasn't.  I was in a selfish frame of mind.  In my day to day life my family is always first.



Nibs