61 replies to this topic

[the L]

DieChecker, on 31 December 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

Oh, and Lycaon is supposedly a mythical figure, not a historic figure.

Myths are not fairies. There is difference. Myths are based on true stories.

[Urisk]

So I take it we have to accept Lycan as a valid word for werewolf or lycanthrope nowadays? Honestly I'd never seen it used prior to those awful films.

the L, on 05 January 2013 - 10:50 PM, said:

Myths are not fairies. There is difference. Myths are based on true stories.

Sorry but no, I don't agree with that. the definition of myths is a story (usually about a heroic figure, generally overcoming some obstacle such as a monster or task) used to explain a process of nature or allegorical statement. Myths are not really based on truth, they are based on a need to explain something.

[orangepeaceful79]

the L, on 05 January 2013 - 10:50 PM, said:

Myths are not fairies. There is difference. Myths are based on true stories.

L...I'm trying to think of some myths that are based on true stories...having trouble coming up with any at the moment.  Can you list a couple maybe?  Thanks!  

[the L]

orangepeaceful79, on 06 January 2013 - 12:11 AM, said:

L...I'm trying to think of some myths that are based on true stories...having trouble coming up with any at the moment.  Can you list a couple maybe?  Thanks!  

Helike

Troy

Can provide more examples.

[the L]

Urisk, on 06 January 2013 - 12:09 AM, said:

Sorry but no, I don't agree with that. the definition of myths is a story (usually about a heroic figure, generally overcoming some obstacle such as a monster or task) used to explain a process of nature or allegorical statement. Myths are not really based on truth, they are based on a need to explain something.

Sure. It is often used to explain something as allegory. And sometimes dont. Sometimes story seems so unbelivible to us that we consider to be myth till moment we realized that wasnt myth but history. Also about first ones , allegories, ...are also often based on true facts.

Fairies on other hands are fictional and invented.
Myths are often confused with faries. Often because they dont know difference.


Tolkien: History became legend. Legend became myth.

[DieChecker]

the L, on 05 January 2013 - 10:50 PM, said:

Myths are not fairies. There is difference. Myths are based on true stories.

True enough. But what evidence do we have to say that this myth is based on a real person? None, as far as I know. If they said this mythical figure lived in 3853 BC, at least that would be a starting point. Or any of the ancients speaking of him as more then a myth...

[Overdueleaf]

the L, on 06 January 2013 - 01:18 AM, said:

Helike

Troy

Can provide more examples.

just because you can name a few examples where myths reflect real life.. it in no way means that ALL myths are based on true stories... i am more inclined to believe like Urisk stated that they are more for the need to explain away things.

Look at all the mythical stories that surround the creation of man... surely they are not ALL true accounts.

Edited by Overdueleaf, 06 January 2013 - 02:58 AM.

[Kazahel]

orangepeaceful79, on 06 January 2013 - 12:11 AM, said:

L...I'm trying to think of some myths that are based on true stories...having trouble coming up with any at the moment.  Can you list a couple maybe?  Thanks!  

I got another quick one. Well I guess its a myth anyway..

Witches riding broomsticks. People now days would generally say typical things like "witches cant fly and didnt ride broomsticks. Its all fake and anyone that thinks they can should see a doctor!!!  It's biologically/physically impossible blah blah blah. "  

But from what I gather its because witches would use a flying oil inorder to astral travel/lucid dream. So the myth of witches flying on broomsticks is based on truth. They used the oil to allow them to 'fly'.  It's just now days most people misunderstand it.

http://en.wikipedia....Flying_ointment


*I also noticed in this link it says "lycanthropic ointment".   Thats interesting hey.

Edited by Kazahel, 06 January 2013 - 06:42 AM.

[Urisk]

From what I gather the wood used for broomstick handles could cure "lady infections" like cystitis, thrush etc, and the practice of waddling around with a broomstick between your legs was born. And since witches probably stemmed from herbalists who were looked upon with suspicion by the Church (because instead of turning to faith, people could actually be cured by these wise women), So the myth of witches was born. Of course flying witches come from Baba Yaga and her Sensational Flying Mortar and Pestle ™, and presumably the two things got somewhat muddled. Is it ash or hazel that has antiseptic qualities? I know willow has salicylic acid in it, which is a key ingrediant in asprin.

So perhaps yes, some myths may stem from truth- but more often than not it's only half-truths. The Cyclopes would be another example. The ancient Greeks found old elephant skulls, and the large hole wherethe trunk extends from was mistakenly identified as a singe lage eye. That's a myth- In this case it stems from something that was tangible, but it was way off the course; we know there are no Cyclopean giants. Kelpies stem from strong under-currents in pools and rivers, perhaps the thermocline in large bodies of water like lochs. As far as I'm aware there are no water horses swimming around in Scottish waters. More people would die unexplainable deaths otherwise.

[Kazahel]

Urisk, on 06 January 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

From what I gather the wood used for broomstick handles could cure "lady infections" like cystitis, thrush etc, and the practice of waddling around with a broomstick between your legs was born. And since witches probably stemmed from herbalists who were looked upon with suspicion by the Church (because instead of turning to faith, people could actually be cured by these wise women), So the myth of witches was born. Of course flying witches come from Baba Yaga and her Sensational Flying Mortar and Pestle ™, and presumably the two things got somewhat muddled. Is it ash or hazel that has antiseptic qualities? I know willow has salicylic acid in it, which is a key ingrediant in asprin.

How do you know that all flying witches come from Baba Yaga?  And are you saying that the flying oils were only used to cure lady infections and not for lucid dreaming/astral travelling/spirit journeying? The substances may be used medicinally but they are hallucinogenic and also place you into a lucid dream upon falling asleep and allows for travelling.

*Btw have you got link to the wood thing, I'd be curious on reading more on that.

Edited by Kazahel, 06 January 2013 - 02:45 PM.

[DieChecker]

Kazahel, on 06 January 2013 - 06:36 AM, said:

I got another quick one. Well I guess its a myth anyway..

Witches riding broomsticks. People now days would generally say typical things like "witches cant fly and didnt ride broomsticks. Its all fake and anyone that thinks they can should see a doctor!!!  It's biologically/physically impossible blah blah blah. "  

But from what I gather its because witches would use a flying oil inorder to astral travel/lucid dream. So the myth of witches flying on broomsticks is based on truth. They used the oil to allow them to 'fly'.  It's just now days most people misunderstand it.

http://en.wikipedia....Flying_ointment

*I also noticed in this link it says "lycanthropic ointment".   Thats interesting hey.

That could all very well be, but I have yet to see anyone who "astrally traveled", who was able to proove anything under scientific circumstances. I feel it falls into the same catagory as out of body experiences where the person "Feels" like they have done something, but can't point to a single thing that prooves they did. If astral travelers could go and peek in on say... the Iranian nuclear program, or go look in Fort Knox, then it would be widely reported and tested and recognized, but since I have not seen that, I must assume that astral travel is mental and only in the one persons mind.

Or are you saying that people can "See" these astral werewolves and witches? So that others experience them also?

[Kazahel]

DieChecker, on 06 January 2013 - 08:53 PM, said:

That could all very well be, but I have yet to see anyone who "astrally traveled", who was able to proove anything under scientific circumstances. I feel it falls into the same catagory as out of body experiences where the person "Feels" like they have done something, but can't point to a single thing that prooves they did. If astral travelers could go and peek in on say... the Iranian nuclear program, or go look in Fort Knox, then it would be widely reported and tested and recognized, but since I have not seen that, I must assume that astral travel is mental and only in the one persons mind.

I kind of agree, like I said on the page before this one(page 3, my 3rd post). Personally I dont really separate lucid dreaming from astral travelling and obe's. Thats why I generally type it as lucid dream/astral travel/obe. So I'm on the fence on if there is truly a difference. But lucid dreaming is a fact. I think obe can feel different because I've experienced it myself but I dont know for sure if its not just a version of lucid dreaming.  So in the end I tend to think of it all as either lucid or not lucid.

I do believe from personal experiences though that not all dreams are just from our own minds, I've had some really good shared dreams, precog dreams/dreams where I have 'peeked' into events. Do a search under 'christmas stocking  'red paint'  and   'ambulance man'   if you want to read some.

Anyway I guess your point is that because they are shapeshifting in the lucid dream/astral/mind/whatever, that means that they arnt actually shapeshifting?  I think thats what you're getting at. But that doesnt mean shapeshifting is impossible and doesnt change where I believe the myths may have come from.

DieChecker, on 06 January 2013 - 08:53 PM, said:

Or are you saying that people can "See" these astral werewolves and witches? So that others experience them also?

If shared dreaming is possible(I believe it is)then I guess others could see them during that time. In regards to others 'seeing' them in waking time, I think the dreamer would have to be inside anothers physical body. So I think the witch/shifter could go inside an animals real body or even a persons. I know this isnt a proven thing but I believe its possible. I've had some strange experiences with that also which is why I believe in it. I guess do a search for 'ice factory' to find one.

Edited by Kazahel, 07 January 2013 - 03:39 AM.

[DieChecker]

Kazahel, on 07 January 2013 - 03:37 AM, said:

....
Anyway I guess your point is that because they are shapeshifting in the lucid dream/astral/mind/whatever, that means that they arnt actually shapeshifting?  I think thats what you're getting at. But that doesnt mean shapeshifting is impossible and doesnt change where I believe the myths may have come from.

If shared dreaming is possible(I believe it is)then I guess others could see them during that time. In regards to others 'seeing' them in waking time, I think the dreamer would have to be inside anothers physical body. So I think the witch/shifter could go inside an animals real body or even a persons. I know this isnt a proven thing but I believe its possible. I've had some strange experiences with that also which is why I believe in it. I guess do a search for 'ice factory' to find one.

That seems fair enough. I believe in prophetic type dreaming where things you dream about can come true, I ascribe that to religious experiences, but others will call it all kinds of things. I believe it is the same kind of brain activity involved.

[the L]

DieChecker, on 06 January 2013 - 02:45 AM, said:

True enough. But what evidence do we have to say that this myth is based on a real person? None, as far as I know. If they said this mythical figure lived in 3853 BC, at least that would be a starting point. Or any of the ancients speaking of him as more then a myth...

Its on Anthropologists Soiciologists to figure out that. Many folklore stories are based on observation. Thats why we have same stories in same cultures.
You must study to become person who would decoded some myths. Usualy you need help of science such as chemistry and physics, astronomy and archaeology and so on.

This particualar case I didnt study. But transformation, metamorphosis was common trait in ancient Greeks and even Romans. What author of that myth wanted to tell us is up to us.

[the L]

Overdueleaf, on 06 January 2013 - 02:57 AM, said:

just because you can name a few examples where myths reflect real life.. it in no way means that ALL myths are based on true stories... i am more inclined to believe like Urisk stated that they are more for the need to explain away things.

Look at all the mythical stories that surround the creation of man... surely they are not ALL true accounts.

Read my above post. Old testament is mythology. It is allegory. Ofcourse earth isnt created in 7 days.
But its their way of explaining it.
Some mythology spoke even close what we know suspect is might be a true. Such as Hindu.

But Creation myths deserve own category.