76 replies to this topic

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

didn't see the "rune" episode but I did see two others. I love the show.

one I did see was where he showed strong evidences that the Maya (or some of them) made it up into Florida and Georgia and are considered
an Indian tribe now.

Another was how he showed that copper mines in Michigan were mined for a thousand years or more during the bronze age
and the bronze artifacts in europe today show that the copper in it is the Michigan variety.

A scientist claimed that som much copper was taken out, that it would have taken 10,000 men 1,000 years to do it.
Obviously this was long before Columbus.

Edited by Earl.Of.Trumps, 22 January 2013 - 07:41 PM.

[Everdred]

TheSearcher, on 20 January 2013 - 08:22 PM, said:

They actually said "evidence for a migration of Celts who practiced Mithraism and also worshipped Anubis." Bit of a stretch isn't it?

Aye, quite the stretch.  I also liked that they tried to portray it as a migration to take part in the American tradition of freedom from religious persecution following the Christianization of Rome.  Obviously Oklahoma was the only place where they could avoid the might of the Roman Empire.

[Swede]

Earl.Of.Trumps, on 22 January 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

didn't see the "rune" episode but I did see two others. I love the show.

one I did see was where he showed strong evidences that the Maya (or some of them) made it up into Florida and Georgia and are considered
an Indian tribe now.

Another was how he showed that copper mines in Michigan were mined for a thousand years or more during the bronze age
and the bronze artifacts in europe today show that the copper in it is the Michigan variety.

A scientist claimed that som much copper was taken out, that it would have taken 10,000 men 1,000 years to do it.
Obviously this was long before Columbus.

Which is a patent fallacy. The utilization and trade of raw copper extracted from Isle Royale, the Keweenaw Peninsula of upper Michigan and associated areas, or collected from the glacial till of the Lake Superior region, is well documented (Drier 1961, Steinberg 1975, Wayman 1985, Rapp, et. al. 2000). The greatest use of this copper was during the Archaic period and is primarily associated with the mid to late Archaic (circa 5000-3000 BP). This came to be known as the Old Copper Culture (Pulford 2000). This terminology has since been revised, with the term Old Copper Complex being more currently applied. Earlier dates related to the Amerindian utilization of the indigenous copper are reported. Beukens (1992) reports a date of approximately 7000 BP from a site in northeastern Minnesota.

The utilization of these resources continued, though to a lesser degree and with somewhat different application, into the Woodland/Mississippian periods.

The trace element analysis of these resources has been notably well defined by Rapp, et. al., 1980.

The "volumetric" aspect has also been quite thoroughly addressed. The crux of this aspect concerns the early (ca +/-  earlier 20th century) recovery bias combined with amateur understandings of the nature of the resource formation. This aspect was further compounded by misinterpretation of early EuroAmerican excavations.

In short, this proposition has never been seriously considered and the credible archaeological research has long ago demonstrated that such fringe "propositions" have no supportable basis.

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[dannyboy52]

Must admit I enjoy this show but as all these kind of shows tend to do ........... it leaves more questions than answers to the lay man.Everyone likes a mystery and we all have a different degree of belief.If I had to believe everything the presenter tells us then Columbus was one of the last visitors to America!

[lakeview rud]

A  biology professor from Harvard published a book in 1982 called "Bronze Age America" in which he claims an Old Norse king visited Ontario, Canada around 1700 B.C.  Since 30 years have passed I'm sure the orthodox legions have since chewed him to shreds but some interesting items in the book.  First there is a site northeast of Peterborough, ON  where a large stone surface was discovered in the mid-1950s which displayed a great number of ancient symbols as well as a series of dots and lines which appear to be text.  The various pictographs look to be Old Norse gods, particularly one of Tsiw, whose hand was bitten off by the wolf Fenrir and another of Loki, the trickster.  It's difficult to pass these off as coincidences as they did the images of a Norse sun god.  The Canadian government still lists the site as aboriginal in nature but took the time to build a building over it to protect it from the elements.  There's no doubt to its authenticity as the discovery was quickly followed by excavation of an overgrowth layer and subsequent photographic documentation. The author also claims that the writing on the stone is a form of ogam consaine, and also relates it to Berber Tifinag. I'll leave it to the others on this site (linguists and geneticists) to examine  the validity of his arguments (he suggests the Berbers were remnants of the defeated "Sea People" who fought against the ancient Egyptians!).
What's remarkable is we have a well-preserved carved-in-stone record dating to perhaps 3700 years ago.  You can go visit it and although you can't stick your fingers in the holes, you can observe it first hand.  The other remarkable thing about the site (now called Peterborough Petroglyph Park) is that its on an aboriginal trail that allows for a fairly easy water route from Lake Huron to Lake Ontario.  If you take into account that Lake Huron was likely at a higher water level and the overall country was still rebounding from the weight of the ice age glaciers, the trail would ahve been a little easier than it is today. Lake Simcoe, near the western end of the trail is about 180 feet higher in elevation than Huron, and after that its almost entirely downhill to Trenton, Ontario on the eastern end.  Of course, the author claims that the 1700 BC visit was to obtain coper ingots.  I do not know if any such ingots have been discovered along the trail but that would be an obvious confirmation of its use.
Swede, the author also claims that by breaking the linguistic "code" he was able to interpret a number of stone carvings in Sweden. Place names are Fossum, Bohuslan and Backa, Brasted and Finnstorp, Bohuslan and others as well so you may have a personal interest in checking that out.
I'm hoping to take a drive up there (Peterborough) this summer as its not too far from my home.  It can't be a hoax, but it may be argued that the site is later than 1700 BC so it can be attributed to the later arrival of the Vikings.  Still, if the linguists can affirm his decoding of old Norse writing and language that would be huge.

[Harte]

Earl.Of.Trumps, on 22 January 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

Another was how he showed that copper mines in Michigan were mined for a thousand years or more during the bronze age
and the bronze artifacts in europe today show that the copper in it is the Michigan variety.

In fact, that is simply not the case.  Don't swallow everything the fringe tells you.  No Michigan copper from the Bronze age has ever been found in Europe or anywhere else in the Eastern Hemisphere.

Earl.Of.Trumps, on 22 January 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

A scientist claimed that so much copper was taken out, that it would have taken 10,000 men 1,000 years to do it.
Obviously this was long before Columbus.

No scientist made that claim, since it's absurdly impossible to calculate how much copper came out of hundreds of empty holes.  If you look into the Old Michigan Copper Culture, on the other hand, you'll find that they did dwell in the area for longer than that.

Harte

[TheSearcher]

lakeview rud, on 23 January 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

A  biology professor from Harvard published a book in 1982 called "Bronze Age America" in which he claims an Old Norse king visited Ontario, Canada around 1700 B.C.  Since 30 years have passed I'm sure the orthodox legions have since chewed him to shreds but some interesting items in the book.  First there is a site northeast of Peterborough, ON  where a large stone surface was discovered in the mid-1950s which displayed a great number of ancient symbols as well as a series of dots and lines which appear to be text.  The various pictographs look to be Old Norse gods, particularly one of Tsiw, whose hand was bitten off by the wolf Fenrir and another of Loki, the trickster.  It's difficult to pass these off as coincidences as they did the images of a Norse sun god.  The Canadian government still lists the site as aboriginal in nature but took the time to build a building over it to protect it from the elements.  There's no doubt to its authenticity as the discovery was quickly followed by excavation of an overgrowth layer and subsequent photographic documentation. The author also claims that the writing on the stone is a form of ogam consaine, and also relates it to Berber Tifinag. I'll leave it to the others on this site (linguists and geneticists) to examine  the validity of his arguments (he suggests the Berbers were remnants of the defeated "Sea People" who fought against the ancient Egyptians!).
What's remarkable is we have a well-preserved carved-in-stone record dating to perhaps 3700 years ago.  You can go visit it and although you can't stick your fingers in the holes, you can observe it first hand.  The other remarkable thing about the site (now called Peterborough Petroglyph Park) is that its on an aboriginal trail that allows for a fairly easy water route from Lake Huron to Lake Ontario.  If you take into account that Lake Huron was likely at a higher water level and the overall country was still rebounding from the weight of the ice age glaciers, the trail would ahve been a little easier than it is today. Lake Simcoe, near the western end of the trail is about 180 feet higher in elevation than Huron, and after that its almost entirely downhill to Trenton, Ontario on the eastern end.  Of course, the author claims that the 1700 BC visit was to obtain coper ingots.  I do not know if any such ingots have been discovered along the trail but that would be an obvious confirmation of its use.
Swede, the author also claims that by breaking the linguistic "code" he was able to interpret a number of stone carvings in Sweden. Place names are Fossum, Bohuslan and Backa, Brasted and Finnstorp, Bohuslan and others as well so you may have a personal interest in checking that out.
I'm hoping to take a drive up there (Peterborough) this summer as its not too far from my home.  It can't be a hoax, but it may be argued that the site is later than 1700 BC so it can be attributed to the later arrival of the Vikings.  Still, if the linguists can affirm his decoding of old Norse writing and language that would be huge.

Lakeview, is the book written by Barry Fell by any chance? Because if it is, please do read through this article. Might be a bit of an eye-opener, it boils down to one thing, Fell is trying to sell us runic inscriptions, two thousand years older than any known runic inscription found in Europe. That is in my eyes a bit of a problem.

Edited by TheSearcher, 23 January 2013 - 10:02 PM.

[questionmark]

TheSearcher, on 23 January 2013 - 10:01 PM, said:

Lakeview, is the book written by Barry Fell by any chance? Because if it is, please do read through this article. Might be a bit of an eye-opener, it boils down to one thing, Fell is trying to sell us ‘Bronze Age’ Scandinavian texts, two thousand years older than any known runic inscriptions in Europe.

Now, now. You have hurt Fell's little feelings, and he surely can attest to having been there when those texts were written!

[TheSearcher]

questionmark, on 23 January 2013 - 10:03 PM, said:

Now, now. You have hurt Fell's little feelings, and he surely can attest to having been there when those texts were written!

Be nice now Questionmark....

......besides Fell identifies scratches on rock, he doesn't make them ...... I think.....

[Swede]

lakeview rud, on 23 January 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

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Swede, the author also claims that by breaking the linguistic "code" he was able to interpret a number of stone carvings in Sweden.

As alluded to by both Questionmark and Searcher, your referenced source is one Barry Fell. The credibility of said individual in regards to the relevant topic has long ago been thoroughly discounted. Can go into more detail, but the following are provided as a brief overview. First, in regards to Fell:

http://ydli.org/dakinfo/celticp.htm

http://www.ramtops.co.uk/loslunas.html

http://cwva.org/cont...gham_intro.html

http://cwva.org/ogam...utal/wirtz.html

And one more in regards to the Old Copper Complex. This one is actually a bit dated, but should provide perspective.

http://www.ramtops.co.uk/copper.html

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[lakeview rud]

Searcher, it is indeed the same Barry Fell.  Nickolai Tesla claimed to be able to transmit electricity through the ground but we still use his alternating current instead of the (orthdox?) Edison's DC current.  Fell can claim the moon's made of green cheese.  If it can be shown that the dots and lines and other squiggles at Peterborough are similar to the dots,lines and figures in Sweden and the resulting readings make sense then it doesn't matter what his other claims are.  Of course," the test tells" (one of my old employers' slogans) so its important to actually take a look at what he's claiming in his book as far as the Peterborough site is concerned and then see if the sites in Sweden exist, are properly documented, photographed etc.
This one is fairly simple, it either works (all the time) or it doesn't.  As my wife likes to tell the story of her nephew learning to read, t-h-e is always the word "the" anytime you see it! As with Egyptian heiroglyphics there is a little bit of interpretation involved as this early language seemed to leave out the vowels so you need to read between the lines a bit but some other ancient languages did the same.  It would be great to understand what the early beginnings of the English language sounded like and looked like.  As far as his other claims go, they really are insignificant compared to this if it pans out.  They don't allow photos to be taken at the Peteborough site but I will give a full report if I can get up that way this summer.

[Everdred]

Let's look at a sample of Fell's Norse-Berber inscriptions:

http://www.faculty.u...doc/bron112.htm

Quote

King Woden-lithi's dedication inscribed just below the image of the war god Tsiw. The text reads from left to right and, by supplying the vowels, may be pronounced as Wlk halgen Tsiwa Woden-litya, "The image hallowed to Tsiw by Woden-lithi." The last two letters of the king's name are given as ogam in a ship rebus. This is also a common feature of inscriptions at Bronze Age sites in Sweden, where prayers for the safety of ships are rendered in ogam letters that are fitted together to make diagrammatic pictures of ships. There are also connections here with words of modern English (Fell 1982).

So the first thing you'll note is that the composition was apparently done by someone having a seizure--you have to bounce around and read in multiple directions to come up with Fell's interpretation.  And the transition from the Norse-Berber script to ogham for part of a name is obviously ridiculous.

But let's also consider the ancient Berber script.  It dates perhaps as early as the 7th century BCE, which is a good thousand years after, and is widely regarded as a development from the Phoenician script.  Here's what it looks like:



You can see that the letters don't generally look like those Fell observed at Peterborough, and when they do his transcription is wrong.  The dot letters (not pictured in the classical alphabet above) are only observed in the late period as an alternate form of the sets of lines, which puts even more time in between and the problem of their development. So clearly his system is completely contrived.

[lakeview rud]

Whoa, whoa there Everdred; I'm looking for t-h-e equals "the" and you give me a whole phrase! Actually I'm surprised you're even considering the dots as being other than random. Searcher calls them 'scratches', that way he doesn't even have to address the fact that they might be real and not random. Once you admit that they aren't random you're on that slippery slope.  Also, I'm not concerrned at this point what the time frame is.  I'd like to go up to Peterborough and first confirm that the dots are indeed there. The next step would be to take a short series of symbols identified with one pictogram (let's say a boat) and compare them to (boat) pictograms at the sites in Sweden.  I don't even need to confrirm that Fell's translations of the symbols are correct.  If you have a pictogram of a boat at Peterborough (There are quite a few of what look like sea-going vessels on a rock many kilometers from any large body of water) and if you have a similar pictogram and an identical dot inscription in Sweden, thats enough. That begs the question whats a Swedish boat doing on a rock in Ontario, or, whats an Ojibwe (or Algonquin) boat doing on a rock in Sweden? So, I'm giving it a rest for now, as I'd like to confirm whats on the Peterborough rocks. Best regards.

[TheSearcher]

I call them scratches because that's what they are. I know they aren't real, I don't need to address that at all. Also, maybe you SHOULD be concerned about the time frame. Like I said, Fell is trying to sell us runic inscriptions, two thousand years older than any known runic inscription found in Europe. How can there be alleged nordic inscriptions, when said nordics didn't even know who to write yet?

Did you btw look into the links Swede gave you? They are clear enough as such.

[Swede]

lakeview rud, on 24 January 2013 - 06:53 PM, said:

Whoa, whoa there Everdred; I'm looking for t-h-e equals "the" and you give me a whole phrase! Actually I'm surprised you're even considering the dots as being other than random. Searcher calls them 'scratches', that way he doesn't even have to address the fact that they might be real and not random. Once you admit that they aren't random you're on that slippery slope.  Also, I'm not concerrned at this point what the time frame is.  I'd like to go up to Peterborough and first confirm that the dots are indeed there. The next step would be to take a short series of symbols identified with one pictogram (let's say a boat) and compare them to (boat) pictograms at the sites in Sweden.  I don't even need to confrirm that Fell's translations of the symbols are correct.  If you have a pictogram of a boat at Peterborough (There are quite a few of what look like sea-going vessels on a rock many kilometers from any large body of water) and if you have a similar pictogram and an identical dot inscription in Sweden, thats enough. That begs the question whats a Swedish boat doing on a rock in Ontario, or, whats an Ojibwe (or Algonquin) boat doing on a rock in Sweden? So, I'm giving it a rest for now, as I'd like to confirm whats on the Peterborough rocks. Best regards.

Lakeview: Realize your intentions, but would wish to provide a bit more detail on the chance that you may read such.

First, as you are likely aware, the most significant portion of the site has been enclosed for quite some time, thus your visit should not be terribly strenuous.

The most (to date) evaluation of the site was conducted by Vastokas and Vastokas. The BCIN, etc. for the text that resulted from this research is presented below:

http://www.bcin.ca/I...&Chinkey=137568

In regards to Fell's manipulation of this research/text, Joan Vastokas was quite clear:

The Scandinavian Bronze Age glyphs were likely carved with bronze
tools, making the carvings sharp-edged and able to be recorded even by
rubbings. The Peterborough glyphs, on the other hand, were ground out with
the use of gneiss rocks, dozens of which we found in the deep crevices on
the site in various stages of use. The petroglyphs were pecked out,
sketched first in fact by pecking dots vertically with the stone and then
rendering the image by grinding out the surface between the dots. This was
discovered through experimenting on the same kind of crystalline limestone
elsewhere in the park. The images resulting from this process had extremely
rounded edges, unlike the more angular sharp edges of the Scandinavian
examples.
One other thing of which the public should be made aware is that
neither David Kelley nor Barry Fell base their ideas on a scientific study
of the Peterborough Petroglyph site itself. They based their notions
entirely on our book. The use of secondary sources in research is entirely
unscholarly and unscientific. But what is worse in Barry Fell's "Bronze Age
America" is that he picked and chose from our map of the site and distorted
the images by making his own drawings to suit his own purposes. This was
done without our permission and was probably actionable legally.

http://home.comcast....ork/newdir.html

For a more in-depth discussion of the topic, please see below, Chapter 16.

http://books.google.... glyphs&f=false

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