Man minus self equals God

[AiR_RVM]

Very recently my Guru, my coach, my mentor sent me a message which I found very intriguing. He said man minus self equals God and God plus self equals man. On deeply contemplating this, I realized that man is man only because of his ego. He carries his ego in what is called an inner instrument of the mind; the intellect, the ego and the memory are referred to as Antahkarana or the inner instrument. When man removes his inner instrument, what is left is God. Unfortunately, the ego, along with the memory, the mind, and the intellect creates a situation where man believes he is he. When in reality, he is not he. He is a manifestation of God. Now, there can be another discussion on the manifestation of God and how creation came about, but the fact is that when God added the ego to the mind, what was created was man, in the form of the gross body, which is made from the five elements and goes back into the five elements. But it is for man to realize that if man annihilates his mind, memory, intellect, ego, then what is left is nothing but the divine spirit, the atman, God himself. Unfortunately, we lose sight of God because of our ego. So, we have to make a choice: ego or God? What do we want to be?

AiR

[141]

i believe we can't be God But we can be Godlike because he created us in his own image . The Ego is equal to free will that he gave us and he did so for a reason , only those that are worthy of him will make it to his kingdom . He gave us the Ego as it is the hardest thing to overcome . We waste our lives battling for the earthly things we want but we never battle each other for the good deeds . God has given us clear instructions and rules of this life . We break them every day knowingly and unknowingly . i believe we can't reach to be godlike here on this earth as no one is without sin . But we should battle ourselves each and everyday to get a step in that direction and follow his guidance and become better then we were yesterday, each and everyday. This made me think about Mother Teresa , even though she wasn't without sin but she led a good example of how we should behave as human beings . May God bless us all for our short comings and may we try to get better every day . At the end it is still God who decides as he is the all merciful and all knowing .

Edited October 10, 2015 by YA AMAR

[Rlyeh]

So God has no mind, memory, or intellect? No wonder he doesn't do anything.

[Frank Merton]

So God has no mind, memory, or intellect? No wonder he doesn't do anything.

You make a good point. Taken to its intellectual conclusion, the portrayal of an infinite God we get from the monotheistic religions ends up with God as a machine -- since He is "perfect," He can do one and only one thing (the perfect thing) in any given situation.

[Leonardo]

So, we have to make a choice: ego or God? What do we want to be?

AiR

There is no "we" in that choice, because in losing a sense of self you lose any sense of identity. Even if you could somehow achieve this (which, with all due respects to your Guru, I would consider impossible while remaining conscious of anything) there would be no "you". "You" could not know "you" were God, because the concepts "you" and "God" both imply a sense of identity - which your Guru states God does not have.

In other words, your Guru is feeding you a line of bs which sounds profound, but actually is self-contradictory and means nothing. It might be what he/she believes, and what you also believe, and if so "yay" for him/her, but it completely fails to understand what identity is and how having an identity is necessary to have any comprehension of being.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Leonardo

[Frank Merton]

There is no "we" in that choice, because in losing a sense of self you lose any sense of identity. Even if you could somehow achieve this (which, with all due respects to your Guru, I would consider impossible while remaining conscious of anything) there would be no "you". "You" could not know "you" were God, because the concepts "you" and "God" both imply a sense of identity - which your Guru states God does not have.

In other words, your Guru is feeding you a line of bs which sounds profound, but actually is self-contradictory and means nothing. It might be what he/she believes, and what you also believe, and if so "yay" for him/her, but it completely fails to understand what identity is and how having an identity is necessary to have any comprehension of being.

I dunno; I get into a state of communing with the universe sometimes (the Buddhist interpretation of the same thing) but don't feel I've given up my individuality, although I've been told that in some circles that is the intent. If one ever got to that state, how would one ever get back, since there would be no "one" to do the getting back?

[Leonardo]

I dunno; I get into a state of communing with the universe sometimes (the Buddhist interpretation of the same thing) but don't feel I've given up my individuality, although I've been told that in some circles that is the intent. If one ever got to that state, how would one ever get back, since there would be no "one" to do the getting back?

And is that "being God"?

I am not criticising the expanding of awareness beyond just the self in order to appreciate the world and universe around us, I am criticising the belief that we can "become God by losing our sense of self".

Once someone loses their sense of self, then how can they recollect what has occurred? And so how would one know that in losing the sense of self one "becomes God"?

It's a line of metaphysical bs meant to impress impressionable people who haven't considered or understood what has been said.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Leonardo

[Duke Wellington]

Very recently my Guru, my coach, my mentor sent me a message which I found very intriguing. He said man minus self equals God and God plus self equals man. On deeply contemplating this, I realized that man is man only because of his ego. He carries his ego in what is called an inner instrument of the mind; the intellect, the ego and the memory are referred to as Antahkarana or the inner instrument. When man removes his inner instrument, what is left is God. Unfortunately, the ego, along with the memory, the mind, and the intellect creates a situation where man believes he is he. When in reality, he is not he. He is a manifestation of God. Now, there can be another discussion on the manifestation of God and how creation came about, but the fact is that when God added the ego to the mind, what was created was man, in the form of the gross body, which is made from the five elements and goes back into the five elements. But it is for man to realize that if man annihilates his mind, memory, intellect, ego, then what is left is nothing but the divine spirit, the atman, God himself. Unfortunately, we lose sight of God because of our ego. So, we have to make a choice: ego or God? What do we want to be?

AiR

A PS4 is a collection of hardware. Its design limits or enables what computer games can be played on it. If we look at GTA V the hardware that exists behind the game lays the foundations of what game reality it is possible for programmers to create. Yes? Ok, so if you examine a thought you realise that for it to exist in your mind you can infer some kind of foundation existing behind it which has enabled the thought to occur. For example:

1. All things which exist have a location they exist at. So a thought has a location it exists at and this is relative to locations it doesn't exist at. So to have a thought you can infer that space exists.

2. All things which exist have a point in time they exist at. A thought has a point in time and its existence determines a before and after too. So to have a thought the past, future and present exist.

3. A stream of thoughts requires points in time to exist relative to each other in a sequence. So to have a stream of thoughts then the flow of time exists.

4. All things which exist are made of something. A thought is therefore made of something. So to have a thought some form of matter and energy exists.

We can turn all this on its head. Who says we can infer the foundations from the thoughts we have? It is just as likely those thoughts actually lay down the foundations. If we adopt this stance, and I do, then thoughts create the foundations which determine what reality we can experience. Our thoughts are like the PS4 hardware.

So God is just a empty mind. Then it starts having thoughts which create space, time and matter (this lays the foundations of the universe which brings one into existence). As God never had any thoughts before this it never knew itself. It didn't know it was God. And that leaves it free to be taken in by the illusion it is now experiencing. It quickly comes to believe it's a mortal man, woman or animal. This creates a load of psychological needs within itself such as the need to survive. The fears, the hopes, the aspirations which arise (and which you call ego) keep it trapped believing its not God.

Edited October 10, 2015 by RabidMongoose

[Still Waters]

AiR_RVM - It would help if you addressed the questions and comments that members have posted in your other threads. This is the 9th topic you've started now and not once have you returned to any of them to discuss what you've stated in your OP.

[StarMountainKid]

While this thread is still open, I'll say that in Buddhism, when we delve into ourselves, at the most fundamental level, there is nothing, only emptiness. I realize this will be countered by members here in various ways. The intellect does not like to hear of this!

But the intellect is not essential to our being. Pure awareness is essential being. The intellect will ask, who is being aware? It will answer, it is I who is aware! The intellect cannot conceive of awareness with no self or ego involved...without itself in charge.

The intellect considers itself the homunculus in the Cartesian Theater who is in charge of mind and body. This can easily be demonstrated as fallacy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homunculus_argument

[Paranormalcy]

"You must master your fear before your fear masters you". There are all kinds of good sounding, possibly even sensible adages, but that doesn't make the source or whatever they're connected to, valid. There are some people that interpret "God" as a very loose abstract, moreso than any entity, like I used to, but there are others that have no belief in any god or gods, so this "truism" is meaningless. Man is man.

S

o while I am not against people practicing their religion and I'm sure there can be comfort or even wisdom and learning to be kind and gracious for some, in doing so, there is so often so much rhetoric that it seems to really muddy the message of just being a good person. That's why things iike this are not my favorite thing to come from religion, even though it isn't offensive in any direct way - it's removing the potential accomplishments and ability and respect for Man as himself, and again sending the praise and credit to some external fictional force. That is a disservice to Man.

[Leonardo]

While this thread is still open, I'll say that in Buddhism, when we delve into ourselves, at the most fundamental level, there is nothing, only emptiness.

I have no problem with that belief, SMK, because it is essentially saying "when I look into myself I see emptiness at the centre". That doesn't deny the sense of identity that all conscious beings must express. "You" are the one looking (figuratively speaking) at that emptiness. Additionally, a "void" might not necessarily be empty, and it's certainly not "nothing". It might be that we are simply unable to perceive that which fills it.

I don't even have a problem with people saying "I believe when we lose our sense of self we join with God" - because that is only a belief and carries no sense of "statement" with it.

What I take issue with, is when 'mystics' make statements such as "when we lose our sense of self (become nothing) we become God" - because that is a statement suggesting knowledge, not belief.

Likewise, I dismiss the "we become nothing" trope that springs from Eastern mystic beliefs because "we" cannot ever know if "we" become nothing through meditative practice, etc. Also, "nothing" is not a 'thing' something can become. It might be something that can be achieved, but I imagine some guru spouting "follow my meditative practices and you can achieve nothing" might receive a different response from potential adherents than proclaiming the result of those practices is something profound or "noble-sounding", or is suggestive of some qualitative change.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Leonardo

[Hyades]

Very recently my Guru, my coach, my mentor sent me a message which I found very intriguing. He said man minus self equals God and God plus self equals man. On deeply contemplating this, I realized that man is man only because of his ego. He carries his ego in what is called an inner instrument of the mind; the intellect, the ego and the memory are referred to as Antahkarana or the inner instrument. When man removes his inner instrument, what is left is God. Unfortunately, the ego, along with the memory, the mind, and the intellect creates a situation where man believes he is he. When in reality, he is not he. He is a manifestation of God. Now, there can be another discussion on the manifestation of God and how creation came about, but the fact is that when God added the ego to the mind, what was created was man, in the form of the gross body, which is made from the five elements and goes back into the five elements. But it is for man to realize that if man annihilates his mind, memory, intellect, ego, then what is left is nothing but the divine spirit, the atman, God himself. Unfortunately, we lose sight of God because of our ego. So, we have to make a choice: ego or God? What do we want to be?

AiR

Thanks AIR_RVM, I like the title of the Tread, ''Man minus self equals God'', or may we say Man minus Ego equals God?, that could be it also!, but I'm no great philosopher.

But I would add that the human body hold an Energetic Plasmic Cloud that hold consciousness, and this cloud evaporates in the Invisible World at bodily death IMHO. And I would say that this Energetic Plasmic Cloud hold some characteristics of what we call God.

[StarMountainKid]

I have no problem with that belief, SMK, because it is essentially saying "when I look into myself I see emptiness at the centre". That doesn't deny the sense of identity that all conscious beings must express. "You" are the one looking (figuratively speaking) at that emptiness. Additionally, a "void" might not necessarily be empty, and it's certainly not "nothing". It might be that we are simply unable to perceive that which fills it.

I don't even have a problem with people saying "I believe when we lose our sense of self we join with God" - because that is only a belief and carries no sense of "statement" with it.

What I take issue with, is when 'mystics' make statements such as "when we lose our sense of self (become nothing) we become God" - because that is a statement suggesting knowledge, not belief.

Likewise, I dismiss the "we become nothing" trope that springs from Eastern mystic beliefs because "we" cannot ever know if "we" become nothing through meditative practice, etc. Also, "nothing" is not a 'thing' something can become. It might be something that can be achieved, but I imagine some guru spouting "follow my meditative practices and you can achieve nothing" might receive a different response from potential adherents than proclaiming the result of those practices is something profound or "noble-sounding", or is suggestive of some qualitative change.

(Bold emphasis mine) There would be no "you" looking at the essential emptiness of being, or I might say awareness of being. There is only this awareness, without the "you" involved.

What is this sense of identity that all conscious beings must express?

[back to earth]

some of you are responding to AiR_RVM .... as if he is going to read your post .

[StarMountainKid]

We'll just talk to each other then.

[XenoFish]

God is overrated.

[Paranormalcy]

Like the John Cena of deities.

But to this main point, still, I think being spiritual is ok, and thought-provoking statements are okay, as long as neither interfere with you being a reasonable person that can make rational decisions. I'm almost more in favor of more modern religions than older ones, because the new ones, like the old ones, are a product of their time, but that time recognizes a lot of problems and hateful or ignorant values the old ones codify as quite acceptable.

[hellig heilige]

Very recently my Guru, my coach, my mentor sent me a message which I found very intriguing. He said man minus self equals God and God plus self equals man. On deeply contemplating this, I realized that man is man only because of his ego.

an age old assumption. doesnt make it true...................................................................................................................................................................................

[Shiloh17]

And 9 post without so much as a reply to any of them, makes this preaching.

[Frank Merton]

About this "when I look into myself I find emptiness" confusion:

I think maybe the problem is that one is not looking into oneself here -- one is suppressing oneself (thoughts, emotions, etc.). To the extent you succeed, since it is yourself you are suppressing, you will leave nothing to find. I think this is just to be expected, and not of much importance (although that nothingness gives the brain maybe a chance to rest a bit and seems pleasant enough).

Introspective meditation or mindfulness has more to do with watching the mind function and figuring out what is going on and maybe thereby better understanding oneself. It also involves watching the mind think about some question or issue or concern or new idea. To do this of course one often needs to simplify the minds activity, and focus. It is more though than just focusing on something, it is watching the mind focus on it and seeing it do its thing.

By the way, if one is not careful, this is a way opinions or even just ideas can be converted into beliefs (things emotionally held as true and not questioned). The other side of that coin is that it is also a way to identify such beliefs and deconvert them back into opinions so one can be objective about them.

[141]

some of you are responding to AiR_RVM .... as if he is going to read your post .

i think he reads it . He just wants to see what and how people think ... it really doesnt matter if he responds or not ...people debate anyway ...

Edited October 11, 2015 by YA AMAR

[Still Waters]

i think he reads it . He just wants to see what and how people think ... it really doesnt matter if he responds or not ...people debate anyway

It does matter.

Rule 2i. Preaching: Do not use the site to 'preach' your own beliefs or views to other members.

And 9 post without so much as a reply to any of them, makes this preaching.

[Grandpa Greenman]

And 9 post without so much as a reply to any of them, makes this preaching.

It does, but the threads have been kind of dull lately. The fact he has a "guru", gave me all the insight as to what he is doing I needed. He just wants to sell the bill of goods he has been sold. The reason he doesn't answer the posts he makes is he is really unable to think for himself. Which circles round to why he thinks he needs a guru, in the first place.

[StarMountainKid]

About this "when I look into myself I find emptiness" confusion:

I think maybe the problem is that one is not looking into oneself here -- one is suppressing oneself (thoughts, emotions, etc.). To the extent you succeed, since it is yourself you are suppressing, you will leave nothing to find. I think this is just to be expected, and not of much importance (although that nothingness gives the brain maybe a chance to rest a bit and seems pleasant enough).

Introspective meditation or mindfulness has more to do with watching the mind function and figuring out what is going on and maybe thereby better understanding oneself. It also involves watching the mind think about some question or issue or concern or new idea. To do this of course one often needs to simplify the minds activity, and focus. It is more though than just focusing on something, it is watching the mind focus on it and seeing it do its thing.

By the way, if one is not careful, this is a way opinions or even just ideas can be converted into beliefs (things emotionally held as true and not questioned). The other side of that coin is that it is also a way to identify such beliefs and deconvert them back into opinions so one can be objective about them.

As you say, it is not about suppressing the mind, it is allowing the mind to be itself, watching its function without consciously interferring. Thoughts arise and pass by themselves...no problem, they're just thoughts. When thoughts are not attended to they loose their energy. I suppose they get bored by not being paid attention to.

Eventually, the mind settles down to quietness. Is there a separation between this silence of mind and you being aware of it? In my view, when the quiet mind and the you merge, become one, this is the true nature of mind, sponteneous activity. A mind functioning without the burden of superfluous intellectualizations.

Call this emptiness if you will, but it is an alert and truly aware consciousness at its most intelligent, ready at a moment's notice to act correctly, bypassing the encumbrances of redundant thought.

Maybe this is God's consciousness, as the OP suggests.

Edited October 11, 2015 by StarMountainKid