264 replies to this topic

[Jor-el]

Likely Guy, on 13 November 2012 - 03:00 AM, said:

Which is extremely complex and unknowable.

Actually not so much, inventing things about him though, that is rather complex and unknowable and changes as fads come and go.

[Seeker79]

Jor-el, on 12 November 2012 - 09:27 PM, said:

That is an answer based on fear... we do not fear what we know, only what we don't know.

We cannot possibky fear that in which we do not know.... We don't know it. We only fear moveing away from that which we do know.

A literal inturpretation of the biblical god is like makeing hitler god. This is why I said I hope not. I don't fear god because I don't believe god needs to be feared. I know god, and it is not scary at all.

Now that dosnt mean that I don't think the bible dosnt contain great spiritual truths and lessons. But I feel the same about the bagavagita, bodi dharma, Quran, ... Even the Homeric epics.

I regularly read my Oxford press bible.

[Jor-el]

Seeker79, on 13 November 2012 - 06:54 PM, said:

We cannot possibky fear that in which we do not know.... We don't know it. We only fear moveing away from that which we do know.

A literal inturpretation of the biblical god is like makeing hitler god. This is why I said I hope not. I don't fear god because I don't believe god needs to be feared. I know god, and it is not scary at all.

Now that dosnt mean that I don't think the bible dosnt contain great spiritual truths and lessons. But I feel the same about the bagavagita, bodi dharma, Quran, ... Even the Homeric epics.

I regularly read my Oxford press bible.

One fears "other", just the concept of such a being is enough to bring fear into ones heart even if we know nothing about him. That you would equate God with the human Hitler, explains alot about how you see such a being.  I'm a Literalist, when it comes to the bible, yet I don't fear God, because what I see there is not what you do... I see a God who has loved the human race, and has been consistently rejected by mankind in their quest for being gods themselves...   fear...

[Diablo Blanco]

Bling, on 31 October 2012 - 11:52 PM, said:

Why would God create humans knowing that a vast number of them would suffer in this life?

Vast number? I think ALL humans suffer.(animals also) I can't think of one person who looks forward to their inevitable death with great joy.
Here's a quote from Ann Druyan that I think folds nicely into this thread:

An immortal Creator is a cruel god because He, never having to face the fear of death, creates innumerable creatures who do. Why should He do that? If He’s omniscient He could be kinder and create immortals, secure from the danger of death. He sets about creating a universe in which at least many parts of it and perhaps the universe as a whole, dies.


If this god created everything, he truly is the master of "planned obsolescence." ~ Hazrus

[Diablo Blanco]

Forgive me if I seem to be quote mining but I think this quote is relevant to the discussion as well:

It has yet to be logically proven that the reason of our creation was love. There is absolutely no natural evidence that supports the hypothesis that the lord of this world is motivated by love, a personal love for his human creation.
A loving doting god is most certainly desirable but the facts of nature do not bear out the assumption that our god, the creator, is overflowing with unlimited love for his human flock.
Nature, all of nature,  is a jungle of merciless contention, with all forms of life vying against and feeding upon other forms of life without pity or refrain. This, I contend, is a look into the mind of god, and if not god – whose mind is represented in the system by which nature perpetuates itself?
That the relationship between god and man is based on love is central to monotheistic dogma; it is also the Achilles’ heel of their fabricated faith. This monotheistic concept of god as a loving Father spawned quite a conundrum for the priesthood, the originators of this fictionalized doctrine, because nowhere in nature do we find love as the driving force by which god’s creatures interact.

Nature is, and must be, reflective of god’s will, it can be no other way, unless we deny that god is the creator of all. So how could a loving god create a world of strife, predatoriness and conflict, where most animals, in order to survive, must prey upon weaker life forms.

Within the natural habitat of our planet we see god’s will in force, and that will, as reflected in the instinctive interplay between god’s creatures, is heartless and amoral to any non-biased eye. The will to survive, to live, to perpetuate the species is paramount in all life forms, and the only way to preserve life is to kill (consume) other life – this is the lord’s  way, that is, if we accept his creation as a bona fide reflection of his will – and how can we do otherwise. ~ Malik H. Jabbar

[Mr Walker]

Jor-el, on 12 November 2012 - 09:40 PM, said:

There are things that theoretically exist outside of the constraints of the space-time continuum (the universe), other universes for example, what is "real" cannot be constrained to the material universe. If we go forward on that tangent then we limit God because of our lack of capacity in understanding him. That he can appear to men not only in spirit but also physically, without constraints of time, tells us that the physical Laws that bind us do not apply to him.

That the bible says that he is an eternal being, without beginning and end implies quite specifically to a being not bound by time, he can only be a being that exists from outside of it. Alot can be said about Gods nature, but this is not one of those things, it is repeated time and again throughout the bible.

That being said, I sincerely hope that you are not picking and choosing what to accept about his nature, when you pick and choose what to accept from the bible.

The bible does more than tell us mere human perceptions of God, it tells us who and what God is, because that is how God has chosen to manifest his nature to us. While many things in the bible "may" be myth or fable, those myths and fables all share one thing in common, the revelation of the nature of God.

The bible relates how other human beings perceived or found god to be, based on their experiences with that god  All the words of the bible were were by human men and women who in their stories relate contact with god.

That does not make their views  or understandings about god  necessarily correct,  for the reasons i outlined earlier. Someone from 2-4000 years ago coul\d not have a similar understanding of god to my own even if we had both a long experience of living with the same  god. When I see an angel materialise or dematerialise or when i  hear and see visions and words  from god, I KNOW that these things are possible via technlogical means, by beings not much more advanced than we are.

One does not have to be an omnipotent omnisicient being, from beyond space and time, to perform these miracles. But to a person from 2-4000 years ago such physical abilities were only possible from an al lpowerful all knowing entity. So on the basis of their experince they attributed those qualities to god They alos had littel knolwedge of physics or cosmology Today it is impossible to accept scientifically a god from outside time and space, althought one can accept it, based on belief via faith.

Knowing god as a very real, intelligent and powerful force in the here and now, I have to accept that this means god fits within certain physical and realistic parameters. If god is "like" me, then god is a creature evolved, like me, from within the natural history of the universe. There is no need for a prime cause or creator of the universe. It could have spontaneously generated, according to modern science. But because god IS real, personally I must fit my understanding of god within what is real, and scientifically credible.

But tha tparadox is my own and doesnt aply to anyone else unless they have a similar contac twith and understanding of god.

[Mr Walker]

Hazrus, on 14 November 2012 - 01:00 AM, said:

Vast number? I think ALL humans suffer.(animals also) I can't think of one person who looks forward to their inevitable death with great joy.
Here's a quote from Ann Druyan that I think folds nicely into this thread:

An immortal Creator is a cruel god because He, never having to face the fear of death, creates innumerable creatures who do. Why should He do that? If He’s omniscient He could be kinder and create immortals, secure from the danger of death. He sets about creating a universe in which at least many parts of it and perhaps the universe as a whole, dies.


If this god created everything, he truly is the master of "planned obsolescence." ~ Hazrus

The whole point of one side of christianity is so that hmans cn look forward to death  with joy and without any fear at all. Many many do. I know dozens personally, and from history i know that many millions have taken such comfort in the christian belief system. Their faith allows them to believe, absolutely, that they will eventually go to a place of immortal joy, happiness learning, growth and transformation.

The other side of christianity tells us how to live our lives in the world here and now, and how to think, so that we may create in our living hearts and minds a heaven or paradise for ourselves, right here and now. One requires faith and belief. The other does not. It is a real physical possibilty for anyone alive today.

[Mr Walker]

Hazrus, on 14 November 2012 - 01:17 AM, said:

Forgive me if I seem to be quote mining but I think this quote is relevant to the discussion as well:

It has yet to be logically proven that the reason of our creation was love. There is absolutely no natural evidence that supports the hypothesis that the lord of this world is motivated by love, a personal love for his human creation.
A loving doting god is most certainly desirable but the facts of nature do not bear out the assumption that our god, the creator, is overflowing with unlimited love for his human flock.
Nature, all of nature,  is a jungle of merciless contention, with all forms of life vying against and feeding upon other forms of life without pity or refrain. This, I contend, is a look into the mind of god, and if not god – whose mind is represented in the system by which nature perpetuates itself?
That the relationship between god and man is based on love is central to monotheistic dogma; it is also the Achilles’ heel of their fabricated faith. This monotheistic concept of god as a loving Father spawned quite a conundrum for the priesthood, the originators of this fictionalized doctrine, because nowhere in nature do we find love as the driving force by which god’s creatures interact.

Nature is, and must be, reflective of god’s will, it can be no other way, unless we deny that god is the creator of all. So how could a loving god create a world of strife, predatoriness and conflict, where most animals, in order to survive, must prey upon weaker life forms.

Within the natural habitat of our planet we see god’s will in force, and that will, as reflected in the instinctive interplay between god’s creatures, is heartless and amoral to any non-biased eye. The will to survive, to live, to perpetuate the species is paramount in all life forms, and the only way to preserve life is to kill (consume) other life – this is the lord’s  way, that is, if we accept his creation as a bona fide reflection of his will – and how can we do otherwise. ~ Malik H. Jabbar

Humans alone in nature have the capacity to love. We also seem to be alone in identifying creating gods  Thus it is not suprising that some of those gods are motivated by love, as humans are motivated by love. We are creative creatures and so for us our gods are likely to be creative loving ones Humans long ago recognised those things which set them apart from the rest of the nature in which they evolved Humans have choices and we have power. Naturally then so do our gods.


As a side issue in christian theology god did NOT create the earth as it is now and nature was not as it is today. Before the fall it was entirely different. it was a paradise with different physical atmospheric and other conditions eg its hydrology. NAture was not as it is now, but as it is described on the new earth. No death, no decay, no pain, no suffering. Women will give birth without pain, the lamb will lie down with the lion.

So a biblical christian believer will not see a dichotomy between nature, cruel and raw today, and a loving creative god. He did not make nature as it is today, biblically speaking. We shaped that new order in our separation from god. We even caused god to change the climate and biosphere of the earth.  Of course that is myth, but it explains the lack of conflict between a loving god and the raw natural world  of today.

[Diablo Blanco]

Mr Walker, on 16 November 2012 - 05:30 AM, said:

The whole point of one side of christianity is so that hmans cn look forward to death  with joy

This is just plain retarded.

[Jor-el]

Hazrus, on 16 November 2012 - 05:15 PM, said:

This is just plain retarded.

It is actually true, from the standpoint of the living... We want the end to come in its own time, but when it does we go with joy.

[Jor-el]

Mr Walker, on 16 November 2012 - 05:20 AM, said:

The bible relates how other human beings perceived or found god to be, based on their experiences with that god  All the words of the bible were were by human men and women who in their stories relate contact with god.

That does not make their views  or understandings about god  necessarily correct,  for the reasons i outlined earlier. Someone from 2-4000 years ago coul\d not have a similar understanding of god to my own even if we had both a long experience of living with the same  god. When I see an angel materialise or dematerialise or when i  hear and see visions and words  from god, I KNOW that these things are possible via technlogical means, by beings not much more advanced than we are.

One does not have to be an omnipotent omnisicient being, from beyond space and time, to perform these miracles. But to a person from 2-4000 years ago such physical abilities were only possible from an al lpowerful all knowing entity. So on the basis of their experince they attributed those qualities to god They alos had littel knolwedge of physics or cosmology Today it is impossible to accept scientifically a god from outside time and space, althought one can accept it, based on belief via faith.

Knowing god as a very real, intelligent and powerful force in the here and now, I have to accept that this means god fits within certain physical and realistic parameters. If god is "like" me, then god is a creature evolved, like me, from within the natural history of the universe. There is no need for a prime cause or creator of the universe. It could have spontaneously generated, according to modern science. But because god IS real, personally I must fit my understanding of god within what is real, and scientifically credible.

But tha tparadox is my own and doesnt aply to anyone else unless they have a similar contac twith and understanding of god.

To me that ain't God, that's just an ET.

Edited by Jor-el, 16 November 2012 - 08:57 PM.

[Mr Walker]

Hazrus, on 16 November 2012 - 05:15 PM, said:

This is just plain retarded.

In which case almost all of humanity is retarded. lol

it is a natural consequence of human self awareness, sapience, and the way we think. If  a person wanst to be miserable because they fear death and non existence, or grieve inconsolably for loved ones lost, never to be see again, when  none of that is necessary, I have to ask, "Who is retarded?"

Let us suppose god is not real. Religion, nonetheless, via  spiritual belief and ritual, offers real psycholgical and physical relief and comfort for ALL the pains, suffering, grief and loss of humanity. It provides an alternative hope to death and non existence. Thus, belief is logical not retarded. But that is not why belief grows in humans. It grows as a result of the  process of how we think and process information, and how we try to find answers /solutions to the great mysteries and unknowns of our existence.

It is the spiritual equivalent to philosophical reasoning.

[Mr Walker]

Jor-el, on 16 November 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

To me that ain't God, that's just an ET.

Well yes, god is certainly (inpart) extra terrestrial.
As per my sig., i believe that what a person makes of god is up to them. For me the relationship with god is a personal one, which requires neither belief, nor religion, nor ritual. It just exists beteween two sapient self aware entities, who share a link and a part of their life together.

But again that is a product of my own personal experience and relationship with god, and is not transferrable to, or applicable to, another. My wife has an equally powerful and personal relationship with god, via pure faith.  She does not experience him physically as i do, but responds to him via "constructed imagery" ie. a  mental construct/ concept of what god is, belief, and a codified/learned set of responses, as part of her organised religious belief. That is more normal for human beings, but just as powerful. (For example she is a church this morning but I am not.) I find god in me and around me, all the time, and apart from the social benefits, do not need reinforcement via doctrine, or ritual, or worship in church.

[Mr Walker]

Jor-el, on 16 November 2012 - 08:53 PM, said:

It is actually true, from the standpoint of the living... We want the end to come in its own time, but when it does we go with joy.

Yes; I think this is an important point, and goes back to the dual message of christ.

Looking forward to death with joy is not a desire for death. It is not, and should not be used as, a cop out from the responsibilities of this world or used as a wish to hasten individual or racial death, just to bring about the end. Jesus taught of our responsibilities in this world to make it a better place for all, and how to achieve that through changing our own lives and those of others.

And so,  in a christian mindset, while no one need fear death, they should not seek it. We have duties, responsibilities, and lives to live, until death comes and must make the  most use of our time and talents on earth.

[aryannatimothy]

Being a God does not mean he does not need anyone, thus yes, so he created humans. Since we are not God and we are just created in his likeness, he are prone to many weaknesess and sure thing God knows about these. So why did he not do something about this and just let us be? You know when we're created, we are given free will. And God did not break His promise so he let us be. It is us who sinned and who make our own sufferings.