309 replies to this topic

[Jinxdom]

Tiggs, on 01 February 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

I expect that the answer is that the Universe exists in a Closed Timelike Curve. As such, it has no need for a prime cause, just as a circle has no need for a starting point.

The Universe is, has and always will be.

Amen.

To me that makes the most sense except for the prime cause part though, I think it has a purpose though with change as it's goal.

[ranrod]

Crikey, on 31 January 2013 - 09:49 PM, said:

Prove it..

You got this backwards. You claim the bible is historically accurate so it is YOUR burden to prove it.
Proofs of negations are meaningless. Eg, I claim you are being controlled by invisible spirits who make you write these fallacies - prove that I'm wrong!

[ranrod]

Crikey, on 31 January 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

But what possible motive would anybody have for sitting down and "inventing" Jesus and Christianity?

I am a time traveler from the future, I was sent here by you to save you in the future, however, I need a lot of money in order to do so. Your future self told me to come to this time and collect all your possessions from you. Please give me all your financial info...after all, what possible motive could anybody have for sitting down and "inventing" this story?

[Verloc]

I think one of the biggest potholes Atheists need to look out for, is trying to convert other people "forcefully".
If there's one thing I can't stand is Christians trying to convert me, spouting the gospel all over me,and taking it upon themselves to "save" me.
You know who else did that....the Catholic Church during the Crusades, in The new world etc etc.

So to all Atheists I implore you, do not become Richard Dawkins, even though most of what he writes/says is brilliant, he's a very aggresive kind of atheist towards people
with religious beliefs.

Atheists,Agnostic,Religious doesn't matter, mutual respect of each other's viewpoints is all we need, doesn't matter how ridiculous it is.(and yes that means even the Scientologists and the Mormons *sigh*

[eight bits]

PA

What is your evidence that anybody who met Jesus was ever placed in a position to choose between being killed and recanting their teaching? We know from Pliny the Younger that such was offered by the Romans late in the First Century. He says he remembers that, and is doing it as he writes. But even his recollection is from at least a generation after the Crucifixion, and probably well after Nero's persecution (Pliny really was a youngster in those days).

There's no evidence that Nero cared what anybody taught. His victims were scapegoats. What mattered was that the general public didn't trust Christians, and believed that they might do something like arson. The only narrated deaths in the canon are Stephen and James, and in neither case is anything like what Pliny describes depicted as being offered to them.

Quote

I touched on this briefly in my last comment, but while today it may be tempting to say the Catholic church is rich, the fact remains that in the 1st Century AD they were not rich, and did not get rich.  Instead they got persecution and death.  It is a fallacy to point to the wealth of the modern church and use that as evidence that the biblical writers were lying, they were not rich.

Acts doesn't say whether or not they were rich. It certainly depicts them collecting money, and records a fatal quarrel over the apostolic share of the proceeds from a real estate deal. Right from the outset, Acts 1 shows them occupying quarters in the City of Jerusalem spacious enough for more than 100 people. What do you think something like that cost?

It's sort of like the Godfather series. Of course, the young Don-to-be Corleone is less wealthy early in his career than he is later on. However, he's doing the same kinds of things at the very beginning of his career as he does in more recent times. It is certainly not a "fallacy" to point out that there is ample reason for why he adhered to a pattern of behavior for so long. It pays, and he could see from direct expereince, right from the beginning, that it pays.

That is pays and that his wealth accumulates are what enables him to continue for so long in the same line of work. That it is rationally foreseeable that it might pay, compared with other economic opportunities available to him, explains why he got involved in the business in the first place. It is directly relevant to making an accounting of his career that his foresight was spot-on.

[Frank Merton]

Jinxdom, on 01 February 2013 - 08:18 AM, said:

That is where the nothing from something argument part comes in and why people generally don't like it.
Theism in general though doesn't have any contradictions nor does atheism. Depending on how far you go on either side of the fence is when it starts to get strange and confusing.

*edited because didn't need the quote

I just finished going to considerable trouble pointing out the contradictions in theism.  I guess it was a waste of time.

[Frank Merton]

The notion that "something" has always existed (either a God or the universe) has a built-in problem.  How did whatever existed infinitely long ago get from there to here?

[Jinxdom]

Frank Merton, on 01 February 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

The notion that "something" has always existed (either a God or the universe) has a built-in problem.  How did whatever existed infinitely long ago get from there to here?

It just is or I don't know. Either answer works to stop the circular thinking. It will drive you mad if you think about it long enough.

Hence my avatar actually

Edited by Jinxdom, 01 February 2013 - 11:42 AM.

[Crikey]

HavocWing, on 31 January 2013 - 11:08 PM, said:

What about the popes and all the crusades?  Vatican City has enough wealth to feed the entire world, learned that on the history channel.  Now why don't you prove that what they said is the truth?

As I've said before, I don't give a rat's ass about any Organised Religion because I don't need them to do my thinking for me. If they want to sit on their cash they can answer to God for it.
Jesus himself reminded us that- "You have one teacher, me" (Matt 23:10)

[Crikey]

Beckys_Mom, on 31 January 2013 - 11:27 PM, said:

They edited what suits..  Hence why Christianity is split  into so many groups.. They cannot agree with each other.

I know, they each read into various Bible passages only what they want to see; it's a vanity thing so they can claim "Only WE know the true meaning, and the rest of you poor dumb shmucks don't"
In other words they twist Bible verses out of shape and are therefore "spiritual perverts"-
"If anyone preaches a perverted gospel they're accursed" (Galatians 1:6-9)

[Crikey]

Liquid Gardens, on 31 January 2013 - 11:55 PM, said:

........I'm not sure in what capacity it's really correct to say that Jesus is really God then, unless he likes talking to himself.

....... I'd have started by removing the part concerning the Amalekites; God-commanded genocide is kind of a dealbreaker for me.

1- Yes, it beats me why a lot of christians think Jesus is God, bearing in mind he said himself he WASN'T God!-
Jesus said - "I am going to the Father, for my Father is greater than I" (John 14:28 )
Jesus said -"Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone" (Luke 18:19)
Jesus said - "Only God knows when Judgment Day will be, I don't know myself" (Mark 13:32)
High Priest asks - "Are you the Son of God?" Jesus replies - "I am" (Mark 14:61)
Jesus said - "I say nothing of my own accord, i only say what my father tells me to say.." (John 12:49)
"My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me" (John 7:17)
Jesus said to God the day before his execution- "Father...I am coming to you now" John 17:13

2- As regards God's Old T mass genocides, think of it as a culling process to remove them and their bad DNA from the human gene pool for the overall good of humankind. His message was "Shape up or I'll ship you out"..

Edited by Crikey, 01 February 2013 - 12:59 PM.

[Crikey]

Crikey said- "One minute atheists are telling us that the Bible has been edited, censored and tidied up over the centuries to make it look good, then the next minute they're telling us it's still  full of contradictions!
Wish they make up their minds and tell us once and for all whether it's been prettied up or hasn't it?

Zaphod222, on 01 February 2013 - 12:29 AM, said:

Both statements are true. What is your problem with that?
The idea that the editing of the bible would necessarily lead to a contradiction-free book is entirely your own invention.

I don't understand mate. The Bible is so full of inconsistencies and contradictions that it can't possibly have been edited can it?
Even the Koran and Buddhism is full of them..

[Paranoid Android]

Frank Merton, on 01 February 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

Christian martyrs were no different from martyrs of other faiths (such as Druids, whom the Romans really persecuted.  Most of it (except for a short period under Diocletian) was made up by the Christians after they were in power.

A martyr is someone who dies for their beliefs.  All that proves is that they believe.

I'm not in disagreement with that view.  All I'm saying is that those earliest followers obviously did believe what they were preaching, because for many of them their fate was not riches but death.

[Crikey]

Zaphod222, on 01 February 2013 - 06:22 AM, said:

Theists believe that for everything there must be a creator. Hence, there must be a creator for god.
Since the religionists do not accept that, their simplistic argument about the creator does not work.

You're thinking in earthly material-universe terms mate..
God is outside our petty laws of physics so it's difficult for us to realise that he's always existed, and always will.
A few of Jesus's quotes hint that our human minds struggle with great concepts like that-

"You hardly believe me when I tell you earthly things,so how would you believe me if I told you heavenly things?" (John 3:12)
"You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world" (John 8:23)
"I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going" (John 8:14)

Edited by Crikey, 01 February 2013 - 01:20 PM.

[Frank Merton]

Paranoid Android, on 01 February 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:

I'm not in disagreement with that view.  All I'm saying is that those earliest followers obviously did believe what they were preaching, because for many of them their fate was not riches but death.

The early Christians were not wealthy; mostly they were the poor and the lower ranks in the army, and of course quite a few slaves.  Where did any get any idea otherwise?

Wealth did not come into the church until Constantine.  Of course at that time it became the thing to be if you were up and coming.