1647 replies to this topic

[skyeagle409]

Stundie, on 28 February 2013 - 02:17 AM, said:

We already know that they only show the surface temperatures  

Doesn't work for you.

Quote

The "hot spots", where intensely burning debris generated temperatures in excess of 1300 degrees Fahrenheit, posed a significant danger to relief workers. NASA had an instrument that could provide information that would be useful to emergency responders. NASA's Airborne Visible infrared Imaging Spectrometer (AVIRIS) science instrument was capable of providing data that could be used to filter smoke and locate extreme hot spots.
NASA SE-2002-02-00007-SSC 2002-02-13 - NASA Involvement in National Priority Support for Disasters (link)

At what temperature does steel melt?

[Stundie]

skyeagle409, on 28 February 2013 - 02:22 AM, said:

Doesn't work for you.




At what temperature does steel melt?

Doesn't work for you, they are surface temperatures, not temperatures under the rubble.

Meaning your claim that the temperature under the rubble was not hot enough to melt steel FAILS!! hahahahaha!!! lol

[skyeagle409]

Stundie, on 28 February 2013 - 02:24 AM, said:

Doesn't work for you, they are surface temperatures, not temperatures under the rubble.

That is moot by the fact that temperatures and data were accurate.

[Stundie]

skyeagle409, on 28 February 2013 - 02:29 AM, said:

That is moot by the fact that temperatures and data were accurate.

Yeah of the surface temperatures and not the temperatures under the rubble......Which we have been over time and time again.

So how do surface temperatures prove the temperatures under the rubble were not hot enough to melt steel, genuis metal worker with 40 years experience?? lol

Unless I build a strawman and suggest that you have fooled yourself into believing that the surface temps acurately record the temps under the rubble........lol

[skyeagle409]

Stundie, on 28 February 2013 - 02:35 AM, said:

Yeah of the surface temperatures and not the temperatures under the rubble.....

Apparently, you are no tuned in to temperature gathering technology. At no time did temperature readings reached the melting point of steel, either above nor beneath the rubble.

Edited by skyeagle409, 28 February 2013 - 02:42 AM.

[Stundie]

skyeagle409, on 28 February 2013 - 02:38 AM, said:

Apparently, you are no tuned in to temperature gathering technology.

And you are not in tune with simpler concept like surface temperatures...lol

skyeagle409, on 28 February 2013 - 02:38 AM, said:

At no time did temperature readings reached the melting point of steel, either above nor beneath the rubble.

It didn't above but we do not know beneath the rubble. Howver evidence suggests it was.

[skyeagle409]

Stundie, on 28 February 2013 - 02:54 AM, said:

And you are not in tune with simpler concept like surface temperatures...lol

It is all very simple to understand. Registered temperature readings did not reach the level needed to melt steel and you have been unable to refute the facts.

Quote

Ground Zero

The one word that can be use to describe the scene is AWESOME! The size of everything was enormous. The pile of debris after 30 days of removal operations was still gigantic, over three stories high, with structural steel projecting 7-10 stories into the air.  The steam, dust, noise, steel and myriad activities were larger than anything I have ever seen.

Temperatures in the pile were over 1,200 °F.  Every time an area was opened, fire started in any buried combustible debris.  Water trucks and fire engines were used continually.

The high temperature debris and water created steam.  Dust contained asbestos, silica, metals, molds and mildews.  We had to wear respirators continually.  I even had to shave my beard.

The size of the steel columns we were removing was immense.  Some columns weighed almost 5,000 pounds per linear foot with interior webs 8” thick.  The Copper-Magnesium cutting wands that the U.S. Army Combat Engineers introduced worked very well in cutting the immense columns into manageable pieces because of the much higher temperatures (8,000°F vs 1,200°F) for oxy/acetylene torches.

This significantly improved the efficiency of the debris removal operations.

http://web.archive.o...2/jan02-01.html

Nothing there to even remotely suggest that temperatures were high enough to melt steel even after the pile was opened up by the clean-up crews. Torches, not thermite, were responsible for the cuts on the steel columns.

Quote

Red Hot Debris.
The removal of debris from the collapsed areas requires the safe lifting and maneuvering of very heavy steel beams, often twisted and tangled from the force of the collapse. Some beams pulled from the wreckage are still red hot more than 7 weeks after the attack, and it is suspected that temperatures beneath the debris pile are well in excess of 1,000°F.   

Once again, proof that the debris, even beneath the pile, never  reached the melting point of steel. In addition, the beams were not in a molten state when pulled from beneath the pile nor did they depict evidence they were in a molten state before they were pulled out of the pile.

Edited by skyeagle409, 28 February 2013 - 05:17 AM.

[Stundie]

skyeagle409, on 28 February 2013 - 04:23 AM, said:

It is all very simple to understand. Registered temperature readings did not reach the level needed to melt steel and you have been unable to refute the facts.



Nothing there to even remotely suggest that temperatures were high enough to melt steel even after the pile was opened up by the clean-up crews. Torches, not thermite, were responsible for the cuts on the steel columns.



Once again, proof that the debris, even beneath the pile, never  reached the melting point of steel. In addition, the beams were not in a molten state when pulled from beneath the pile nor did they depict evidence they were in a molten state before they were pulled out of the pile.

Again, these are guesses and estimates, not accurate measurments of the temperatures under the rubble, some even thought the temperatures were much higher, disproving your point yet again. So let us get this straight.....

• Quote

  He noted the way steel from the WTC had bent at several connection points that had joined the floors to the vertical columns. He described the connections as being smoothly warped, saying, “If you remember the Salvador Dali paintings with the clocks that are kind of melted–it’s kind of like that.” He added, “That could only happen if you get steel yellow hot or white hot–perhaps around 2,000 degrees.” [Jeffrey R. Young, "Scholars Work to Rebuild the World Trade Center Virtually."]
  
• He came across “severely scorched [steel] members from 40 or so floors below the points of impact [by the planes].” [David Kohn, "Culling Through Mangled Steel." CBS News, March 12, 2002.]
  
• The fires got very intense down there and actually melted beams where it was molten steel that was being dug up.
  
• Kathy Dawkins, NY Dept. of Sanitation spokeswoman: “…NYDS played a major role in debris removal — everything from molten steel beams to human remains….” (Tom R. Arterburn, “D-Day: NY Sanitation Workers’ Challenge of a Lifetime” Apr. 1, 2002 at http://wasteage.com/...y_ny_sanitation )
  
• “Turner himself crawled through an opening and down crumpled stairwells to the subway, five levels below ground. He remembers seeing in the darkness a distant, pinkish glow–molten metal dripping from a beam–but found no signs of life.” – Marci McDonald, “They came to help at Ground Zero. What they experienced they can’t forget” http://www.usnews.co...911memories.htm
  
• “In his reporting for ‘American Ground,’ Langewiesche explored the shifting debris with construction workers and engineers, documenting the crises and questions as they arose. He crawled through ‘the pile’ with survey parties and descended deep below street level to areas where underground fires still burned and steel flowed in molten streams.” - http://www.theatlant.../200207/77nwash
  
• ‘It’s still cooking,’ said Thomas O’Connor, who manages the construction and engineering work at the site for the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which owned the buildings and arranged for the tour through the basement. In the days after the collapse of the towers two months ago, the tangled steel was still so hot that it glowed like charcoal briquets in the unlighted basement, Mr. O’Connor said, adding, ‘For seven weeks it was surreal down here.’
  
• The steel was so hot from the jet fuel that, uh, it was literally steaming. Your boots would melt in certain areas. That’s how hot it was. The steel was coming out red in certain areas for the first couple weeks, at least.-  Michael Casale, Project Supt., Mazzocchi Wrecking in Modern Marvels Demolition segment on WTC Ground Zero
  
• “‘The [NYFD] people who called us had been killed,’ Atlas considered as she surveyed the tons and acres of wreckage. ‘Nobody’s going to be alive.’ Fires burned and molten steel flowed in the pile of ruins still settling beneath her feet.” – “K-9/11: Tracking the Rescuers’ Trauma,” Summer 2002, on Sarah Atlas of New Jersey’s Task Force One Urban Search and Rescue – http://www.sas.upenn...r2002/k911.html
  
• “Father Edward A. Malloy, on site 40 days after the disaster stated ‘Firefighters atop a number of ladder trucks were spraying in the areas of greatest smoke. The average temperature beneath the rubble is said to be 1500F so that when steel is brought up it is molten and takes two or three days to cool down.’”
  - http://www.nd.edu/~n...alloydiary.html
  
• James Glanz, “Below Rubble, a Tour of a Still-Burning Hell,” NY Times, Nov. 15, 2001, New York Edition p. B1. Online at http://www.nytimes.c...rning-hell.html (See the same article to hear this: “A three-foot stalagmite of steel, which looks for all the world like a drip candle, sits next to one of the immense steel columns that held up the north face of the tower.”)
  
• “In the first few weeks, sometimes when a worker would pull a steel beam from the wreckage, the end of the beam would be dripping molten steel,” said Greg Fuchek, vice president of sales for LinksPoint Inc., maker of the GlobalPoint Global Positioning System receiver used to track debris and/or human remains recovery locations in the pile. (Trudy Walsh, “Handheld App Eased Recovery Tasks,” Government Computer News, Vol. 21 No. 27 a, 9/11/2002. Archived at http://911research.w...andheldapp.html )
  
• It took me a long time to realize it and I found myself actually one day wanting to get back. Why? Because I felt more comfortable. I realized it was actually warmer on site. The fires burned, up to 2,000 degrees, underground for quite a while before they actually got down to those areas and they cooled off.
  
• ‘In some pockets now being uncovered, they are finding molten steel.’” Rod Graham, “Mobilizing Public Health,” Johns Hopkins Public Health Magazine, Late Fall, 2001. Online at http://www.jhsph.edu...ecial/Welch.htm
  
• A veteran of disasters from the Mississippi floods [to] Mt. St. Helens, Burger said it reminded him most of the volcano, if he forgot he was in downtown Manhattan. ‘Feeling the heat, seeing the molten steel, the layers upon layers of ash, like lava, it reminded me of Mt. St. Helen’s [sic] and the thousands who fled that disaster,’ he said.
  
• Fire Department Chief Mike Donoho of Texas Task Force 1 Urban Search and Rescue described the scope of the destruction, ‘Everything had its own look. In the area surrounding what was the two twin towers, there were several buildings still standing that were burned from top to bottom, and some of them were damaged by the collapse. But the two towers — they were 110-story buildings. And there was nothing that you could put your hands on that resembled anything that would tell you this once was two 110-story office buildings. What you had were large columns of steel that were just stuck into massive amounts of molten steel and other metals, that had just fused together from the heat and bonded together from the strength of the collapse. We dug and we dug and we dug, and we cut and we cut and we cut, and we did not see anything that resembled any type of furniture, any type of personal belongings. We found some pieces of things like a telephone, things like that. I think we found credit cards a few times, and we found a couple of stuffed animals. But you would expect to see, like, a bunch of desks, a bunch of chairs. The only way I can explain it is, if you take a car and put it in one of those machines where they crush it and make it look like a cube, and you can’t recognize what it is, that’s what the whole area looked like. It looked like a massive, molten mess that had been fused together, like a car that had been cubed and crushed. With all that heavy, heavy stuff, there were wires, rebar, concrete. Most of it was just steel. A lot of what we were walking on was just molten steel.’
  
• 
  - http://web.archive.o...firefighter.htm
  
• 
  “Some beams pulled from the wreckage are still red hot more than 7 weeks after the attack, and it is suspected that temperatures beneath the debris pile are well in excess of 1,000°F.” – http://web.archive.o...om/lironews.pdf
  
• 
  No matter when they went, the odor of molten steel, pulverized concrete and charred flesh burned their throats, lingering in their lungs. http://goliath.ecnex...rom-ground.html
  
• 
  Another danger involved the high temperature of twisted steel pulled from the rubble. Underground fires burned at temperatures up to 2,000 degrees. As the huge cranes pulled steel beams from the pile, safety experts worried about the effects of the extreme heat on the crane rigging and the hazards of contact with the hot steel. And they were concerned that applying water to cool the steel could cause a steam explosion that would propel nearby objects with deadly force. Special expertise was needed. OSHA called in structural engineers from its national office to assess the situation. They recommended a special handling procedure, including the use of specialized rigging and instruments to reduce the hazards.- http://www.osha.gov/...s_worksite.html
  
• 
  “Two weeks after the attack, the rubble, the Pile, is still 7 stories tall. Below, in the Pit it burns like the gates of hell. It is 1200 degrees, so hot that the steel work lifted by the grapplers comes out soft. I’ve never seen anything like this.” – http://www.ukfssart....ground zero.htm
  
• 
  “Firemen and hazardous materials experts stated that, six weeks after 9/11, ‘There are pieces of steel being pulled out [from as far as six stories underground] that are still cherry red’ and ‘the blaze is so ‘far beyond a normal fire’ that it is nearly impossible to draw conclusions about it based on other fires.”
  - http://www.nydailyne...at/a-130539.asp

[skyeagle409]

Stundie, on 28 February 2013 - 09:53 PM, said:

“A group of veteran ironworkers eating lunch while staring at the steel skeleton of a new building going up on West Third Street when one commented on ‘how much easier it was to eat a sandwich in front of steel that was strong and straight and new, not molten and mangled and laden with debris.’”

- Corey Kilgannon, “Ironworkers’ Job of Clearing Ground Zero Is Over, but the Trauma Lingers,” NY Times, Nov. 11, 2002 at - http://www.nytimes.c....html?sec=healt
Don't tell me.... that ironworkers are not metallurgist and are not capable of detecting molten steel....lol

All of these people and saw molten aluminium.. . hahahahhahahahahahahahaha!!

What do you suppose, "not molten" means?

Quote

Some beams pulled from the wreckage are still red hot more than 7 weeks after the attack, and it is suspected that temperatures beneath the debris pile are well in excess of 1,000°F.” –http://web.archive.o...om/lironews.pdf

Let's see! They said that after 7 weeks, some beams were pulled out of the wreckage and they were red hot after 7 weeks. Now, sit back and think for a minute. That means that since the beams were pulled out, simply means the steel beams were not in a molten state. Common sense logic, you understand! And since the beams were red hot, the steel beams were at temperatures far below the melting point of steel to be in a molten state.

Simple common sense logic, you understand.

Let's make a short list from your links.

Quote

Another danger involved the high temperature of twisted steel pulled from the rubble. Underground fires burned at temperatures up to 2,000 degrees.

2000 degrees is below the melting point of steel.

Quote

“Two weeks after the attack, the rubble, the Pile, is still 7 stories tall. Below, in the Pit it burns like the gates of hell. It is 1200 degrees, so hot that the steel work lifted by the grapplers comes out soft.

1200 degrees is far below the melting point of steel. What have I said about fires reaching temperatures high enough to weaken the steel columns of the WTC buildings? What have I said about temperatures high enough to melt aluminum but not steel?

Quote

“Firemen and hazardous materials experts stated that, six weeks after 9/11, ‘There are pieces of steel being pulled out [from as far as six stories underground] that are still cherry red’ and ‘the blaze is so ‘far beyond a normal fire’ that it is nearly impossible to draw conclusions about it based on other fires.”

Steel being pulled six stories underground yet the steel is only cherry red, which simply means the temperature of the steel is far too low to melt steel.

Edited by skyeagle409, 28 February 2013 - 10:27 PM.

[Stundie]

skyeagle409, on 28 February 2013 - 10:07 PM, said:

What do you suppose, "not molten" means?

Read it again....but very slowly....

“A group of veteran ironworkers eating lunch while staring at the steel skeleton of a new building going up on West Third Street when one commented on ‘how much easier it was to eat a sandwich in front of steel that was strong and straight and new, not molten and mangled and laden with debris.’” <...i.e.  as in....“Ironworkers’ Job of Clearing Ground Zero Is Over, but the Trauma Lingers,”

Do you get it?? He was eating his lunch looking at the new building, when one of them commented on how much easier it was to eat a sandwich here in front of the new steel, not the molten mangled and laden with debris at GZ. Which I think would have been much harder to eat a sandwich at, hence the job of cleaning GZ is over, but the trauma lingers on that he is reflecting on.

But this iron worker according to your logic is wrong and didn't see molten steel, he his wrong and everyone is wrong at GZ because a pantomime internet debunking warrior says so and is confiused himself that this evidence trumps the eyewitness accounts. Just because you say they are wrong is not evidence that all these people are wrong...lol...And I can't believe Pysche actually praises you,  I really am struggling to see why.

skyeagle409, on 28 February 2013 - 10:07 PM, said:

Let's see! They said that after 7 weeks, some beams were pulled out of the wreckage and they were red hot after 7 weeks. Now, sit back and think for a minute. That means that since the beams were pulled out, simply means the steel beams were not in a molten state. Common sense logic, you understand! And since the beams were red hot, the steel beams were at temperatures far below the melting point of steel to be in a molten state.

Say Mr Metalworker with your 40 years of experience...Do you think that steel beams they pulled out which are red hot AFTER 7 WEEKS would have been hotter say a few weeks before...

Before 7 weeks of water colling it all down after pulling molten beams in the proceeding 7 weeks...or....do you believe after 7 weeks of water hosing and cooling it down and pulling molten aluminum out, that the debris fires were at it's peak temperature??

You know like this guy says...

“In the first few weeks, sometimes when a worker would pull a steel beam from the wreckage, the end of the beam would be dripping molten steel,”

Common sense which appear to be on vacation Sky. lol

skyeagle409, on 28 February 2013 - 10:07 PM, said:

Let's make a short list from your links.

2000 degrees is below the melting point of steel.

1200 degrees is far below the melting point of steel. What have I said about fires reaching temperatures high enough to weaken the steel columns of the WTC buildings? What have I said about temperatures high enough to melt aluminum but not steel?

Steel being pulled six stories underground yet the steel is only cherry red, which simply means the temperature of the steel is far too low to melt steel.

You are not getting it are you, so let me explain.....lol

Do you think that the temperature would probably be at various temperatures at various places at various times, or that it was one uniformed temperature?? lol

The temperatures are nothing more than guesses, like this guy said. The average temperature beneath the rubble is said to be 1500F so that when steel is brought up it is molten and takes two or three days to cool down.’”   Yeah thats aluminum for ya!! lol

or

The fires got very intense down there and actually melted beams where it was molten steel that was being dug up.

Edited by Stundie, 28 February 2013 - 11:14 PM.

[skyeagle409]

Stundie, on 28 February 2013 - 11:12 PM, said:

Read it again....but very slowly....

The fires got very intense down there and actually melted beams where it was molten steel that was being dug up.

There were no melted beams.  Look at the temperature range you've posted.

Quote

The average temperature beneath the rubble is said to be 1500F so that when steel is brought up it is molten and takes two or three days to cool down.’”  

The temperature range you've posted coincides with the recorded temperature range I've posted, and not enough to melt steel. The steel beams were never in a molten state.

Edited by skyeagle409, 01 March 2013 - 02:58 AM.

[Stundie]

skyeagle409, on 01 March 2013 - 02:53 AM, said:

There were no melted beams.  

Sorry but those people at GZ witnessed it. Sitting behind a keyboard repeating yourself is not evidence they are wrong....lol

skyeagle409, on 01 March 2013 - 02:53 AM, said:

Look at the temperature range you've posted.

I know, all estimates.

The debris pile at Ground Zero was always tremendously hot. Thermal measurements taken by helicopter each day showed underground temperatures ranging from 400ºF to more than 2,800ºF.
http://911research.w...groundzero1.htm

Sounds hot enough to melt steel to me and seeing as there were no accurate temperatures measured under the rubble, we can still conclude there was molten steel. lol

Even an ironworker remembers seeing molten steel and I doubt that he would be confused and you have no evidence he or anyone else is wrong...lol

skyeagle409, on 01 March 2013 - 02:53 AM, said:

The temperature range you've posted coincides with the recorded temperature range I've posted, and not enough to melt steel. The steel beams were never in a molten state.

Yes they were....

"The fires got very intense down there and actually melted beams where it was molten steel that was being dug up." - Richard Riggs, Debris Removal Specialist in “World Trade Center: Rise and Fall of an American Icon,” THC, 2002.

Beams are not made from aluminum....lol

Edited by Stundie, 01 March 2013 - 09:44 AM.

[Q24]

skyeagle409, on 28 February 2013 - 10:07 PM, said:

What do you suppose, "not molten" means?

I've always suspected it but here is direct evidence that skyeagle cannot read and/or understand full sentences.

[Yamato]

Stundie, on 01 March 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

Sorry but those people at GZ witnessed it. Sitting behind a keyboard repeating yourself is not evidence they are wrong....lol

I know, all estimates.

The debris pile at Ground Zero was always tremendously hot. Thermal measurements taken by helicopter each day showed underground temperatures ranging from 400ºF to more than 2,800ºF.
http://911research.w...groundzero1.htm

Sounds hot enough to melt steel to me and seeing as there were no accurate temperatures measured under the rubble, we can still conclude there was molten steel. lol

Even an ironworker remembers seeing molten steel and I doubt that he would be confused and you have no evidence he or anyone else is wrong...lol
Yes they were....

"The fires got very intense down there and actually melted beams where it was molten steel that was being dug up." - Richard Riggs, Debris Removal Specialist in “World Trade Center: Rise and Fall of an American Icon,” THC, 2002.

Beams are not made from aluminum....lol

*Tin foil hat off*

Molten beams isn't evidence of the loony conspiracy that's been manufactured over it.   Rusty iron beams + molten aluminum + a raging inferno lit by jet fuel = Thermite.  It's not a conspiracy.  It's a simple damned fact.   The towers collapsed on their impact wounds.  Video evidence proved this beyond only the nuttiest of doubt.   Thanks "truthers" for doing an immense disservice to your country and the world, and letting evil escape with the truth out the back door.

*Tin foil hat back on*

[Babe Ruth]

Keep that hat on Yamato!

If the towers collapsed upon their own impact wounds from gravity and jetfuel, what force hurled that large chunk of structural steel at velocity sufficient to impale it on the American Express building several hundred feet away?