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Great Pyramid not built by Khufu?


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#241    cladking

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 08:10 PM

View PostArbitran, on 09 October 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

As a more back-on-topic note, I recently heard an odd hypothesis that the Great Pyramid's blocks were transported with the assistance of teams of trained gorillas. Any thoughts anyone? As a biologist, and not a historian/archaeologist/etc., I don't really know how credible the idea is, suffice to say that all I do know is that adult male gorillas are approximately twenty times stronger than an equivalent human. I don't know, but the idea did intrigue me, regardless of it's veracity. At the very least, I suppose one has to acknowledge that it's certainly a creative idea, if nothing else.

It's a minor absurdity.

I doubt gorillas can be domesticated or cajoled into doing man's bidding.  If they had
been domesticated then there would almost certainly be extensive evidence for it. It
is highly creative but hardly believable without some sort of evidence.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#242    cladking

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 08:12 PM

It's improbable that gorillas are much more efficoient biologically than humans so we'd
still be stuck at the exact same place; how did gorillas lift the stones to build the pyramid.  
No number of gorillas could just pick up a 40 ton stone and clamber up the side.  

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#243    Arbitran

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 08:47 PM

View Postcladking, on 09 October 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

It's improbable that gorillas are much more efficoient biologically than humans so we'd
still be stuck at the exact same place; how did gorillas lift the stones to build the pyramid.  
No number of gorillas could just pick up a 40 ton stone and clamber up the side.  

Well, if one actually does the math... 40 non-metric tons is equivalent to 80,000lbs. + the average adult male gorilla can lift on the order of 10x its body weigh, which is equal to a mean of 350lbs. = 10 x 350 = 1 gorilla can lift 3500lbs. = maybe 22 or 23 adult male gorillas would be capable, collectively, of lifting a 40-non-metric-ton stone block; a team of more would be capable of lifting it more easily, of course. And given the use of ramps and dragging, which is, needless to say, much easier than lifting, the gorilla theory is, in any case (whether true or false), not unfeasible.

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#244    Arbitran

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 08:50 PM

View Postcladking, on 09 October 2012 - 08:10 PM, said:

It's a minor absurdity.

I doubt gorillas can be domesticated or cajoled into doing man's bidding.  If they had
been domesticated then there would almost certainly be extensive evidence for it. It
is highly creative but hardly believable without some sort of evidence.

Gorillas cannot be domesticated in the common sense, but then, neither can humans; in the true sense of the word. Payment/bribery/whatever you want to call it, is usually sufficient to get humans to work for other humans; gorillas are the same. Having worked with gorillas, I've learned first-hand that, if a gorilla wants something, and you know it wants it, then you can use it as an incentive to cajole it, as you say, to do what you wish. It isn't quite as simple as strapping mules to a cart, but it isn't much harder than paying a human worker.

Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison

#245    kmt_sesh

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 09:17 PM

View PostArbitran, on 09 October 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

As a more back-on-topic note, I recently heard an odd hypothesis that the Great Pyramid's blocks were transported with the assistance of teams of trained gorillas. Any thoughts anyone? As a biologist, and not a historian/archaeologist/etc., I don't really know how credible the idea is, suffice to say that all I do know is that adult male gorillas are approximately twenty times stronger than an equivalent human. I don't know, but the idea did intrigue me, regardless of it's veracity. At the very least, I suppose one has to acknowledge that it's certainly a creative idea, if nothing else.

See cormac's post. I agree with him. But on the subject of gorillas actually contributing to the workforce, no. There's no evidence for such. Donkeys and oxen were in abundance and would've been a lot more powerful than men as beasts of burden, but it seems the Egyptians relied on men for most work projects. Animals might have been handy but they can be unpredictable and dangerous, especially given the average work environment of the Bronze Age Nile Valley.

My own favorite "theory" was presented by a creationist who suggested dinosaurs were domesticated to help build pyramids. :w00t:

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#246    questionmark

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 09:21 PM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 09 October 2012 - 09:17 PM, said:

My own favorite "theory" was presented by a creationist who suggested dinosaurs were domesticated to help build pyramids. :w00t:

Impossible, that would put Fred Flintstone's hometown Bedrock in Egypt. We all know it was in America!

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#247    cormac mac airt

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 09:24 PM

View PostArbitran, on 09 October 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

Gorillas cannot be domesticated in the common sense, but then, neither can humans; in the true sense of the word. Payment/bribery/whatever you want to call it, is usually sufficient to get humans to work for other humans; gorillas are the same. Having worked with gorillas, I've learned first-hand that, if a gorilla wants something, and you know it wants it, then you can use it as an incentive to cajole it, as you say, to do what you wish. It isn't quite as simple as strapping mules to a cart, but it isn't much harder than paying a human worker.

Thanks for this Arbitran. Of all the people cladking could have had a discussion about gorillas with, he would have to pick one who's actually worked with them. Priceless! :lol:

cormac

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#248    Arbitran

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 09:24 PM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 09 October 2012 - 09:17 PM, said:

See cormac's post. I agree with him. But on the subject of gorillas actually contributing to the workforce, no. There's no evidence for such. Donkeys and oxen were in abundance and would've been a lot more powerful than men as beasts of burden, but it seems the Egyptians relied on men for most work projects. Animals might have been handy but they can be unpredictable and dangerous, especially given the average work environment of the Bronze Age Nile Valley.

My own favorite "theory" was presented by a creationist who suggested dinosaurs were domesticated to help build pyramids. :w00t:

I'm glad that you commented, kmt_sesh; I was most interested to see your take on it. It was just an interesting thought that a friend of mine had. And yes, oy... creationists... The dinosaur "theory" of pyramid construction honestly has to be even more improbable than giants or aliens or such like. Now that's something you'd think the Egyptians would have mentioned! Dinosaurs building the pyramids... oy... egads, the tripe some people believe...

Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison

#249    Arbitran

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 09:30 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 09 October 2012 - 09:24 PM, said:

Thanks for this Arbitran. Of all the people cladking could have had a discussion about gorillas with, he would have to pick one who's actually worked with them. Priceless! :lol:

cormac

My pleasure. Whether or not the gorilla hypothesis has any plausibility at all, I do love to discuss gorillas; they're fascinating creatures. As silly as it sounds, I actually trained myself in my younger years to knuckle-walk so that I could better interact with gorillas and chimpanzees... I haven't done it for a while, of course (it would be a trifle awkward in human society, after all...). And of course I never actually mastered it such that I could do it with the natural finesse and grace that chimps and gorillas do, but I could 'walk' and 'run' quadrupedally, on the intermediate phalanges, without pain, and with some degree of capability. But I digress... (quite substantially).

Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison

#250    questionmark

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 09:32 PM

View PostArbitran, on 09 October 2012 - 09:24 PM, said:

I'm glad that you commented, kmt_sesh; I was most interested to see your take on it. It was just an interesting thought that a friend of mine had. And yes, oy... creationists... The dinosaur "theory" of pyramid construction honestly has to be even more improbable than giants or aliens or such like. Now that's something you'd think the Egyptians would have mentioned! Dinosaurs building the pyramids... oy... egads, the tripe some people believe...

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#251    Harte

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 10:10 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 09 October 2012 - 09:24 PM, said:

Thanks for this Arbitran. Of all the people cladking could have had a discussion about gorillas with, he would have to pick one who's actually worked with them. Priceless! :lol:

cormac

I've worked with gorillas as well.

Well, more like bought drinks for, really.

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#252    cladking

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 10:30 PM

View PostArbitran, on 09 October 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

Gorillas cannot be domesticated in the common sense, but then, neither can humans; in the true sense of the word. Payment/bribery/whatever you want to call it, is usually sufficient to get humans to work for other humans; gorillas are the same. Having worked with gorillas, I've learned first-hand that, if a gorilla wants something, and you know it wants it, then you can use it as an incentive to cajole it, as you say, to do what you wish. It isn't quite as simple as strapping mules to a cart, but it isn't much harder than paying a human worker.

Two questions;

What's the most complicated activity you ever got a gorilla to do?

What's the longest you were able to get a gorilla to actively do anything at all?

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#253    Arbitran

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 10:56 PM

View Postcladking, on 09 October 2012 - 10:30 PM, said:

Two questions;

What's the most complicated activity you ever got a gorilla to do?

What's the longest you were able to get a gorilla to actively do anything at all?

1 ~ Hard to say. Maybe stacking car tires, in order from largest on the bottom, to smallest on the top. Hmm... in almost "pyramid" shape, one could say.

2 ~ About a half-hour, give or take; after that there's usually around twenty minutes or so before he'll work again. That's one of the primary differences between humans and gorillas: they have shorter attention spans. A silverback gorilla has to be constantly vigilant, and watching all around him for any potential threat to his tribe; he can't afford to focus his attention on one thing for terribly long.

In any case, it isn't as if I'm pushing for the gorilla hypothesis here; I think it's as improbable as everyone else (which, to be fair, is still considerably more probable that aliens or dinosaurs). I'm simply indicating the facts about gorillas here; that, regardless of whether they actually were involved or not, it wouldn't be terrifically farfetched to suggest that gorillas would have been capable of assisting with the construction of the pyramids. That is, of course, a completely different statement than: "gorillas built the pyramids".

Try to realize it's all within yourself / No-one else can make you change / And to see you're really only very small / And life flows on within you and without you. / We were talking about the love that's gone so cold and the people / Who gain the world and lose their soul / They don't know they can't see are you one of them? / When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find peace of mind / Is waiting there / And the time will come / when you see we're all one and life flows on within you and without you. ~ George Harrison

#254    kmt_sesh

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 10:59 PM

View PostArbitran, on 09 October 2012 - 09:24 PM, said:

I'm glad that you commented, kmt_sesh; I was most interested to see your take on it. It was just an interesting thought that a friend of mine had. And yes, oy... creationists... The dinosaur "theory" of pyramid construction honestly has to be even more improbable than giants or aliens or such like. Now that's something you'd think the Egyptians would have mentioned! Dinosaurs building the pyramids... oy... egads, the tripe some people believe...

I'm glad you found my reply acceptable because after posting it I was afraid I might have come across as flippant, which wasn't my intent. Well, about the gorillas, specifically. I'll be extremely flippant about aliens and creationists and other folks not of this world. :P

I should've taken the time to expound on my post, if only briefly (which isn't easy for me, of course). Archaeologists have recovered a dizzying array of animal bones (and animal mummies) from the ancient Egyptian world, many of them deliberately and respectfully buried by mankind. This includes everything from elephants to shrews. And while countless baboons were interred or mummified, I can't think of any example of the bones of a gorilla dating to the pharaonic period. Were they even indigenous to Egypt at some time? Not that many of the baboons were—many of them were imported from farther south in Africa.

Think of the veritable army of gorillas it would've taken to assist with something like the Great Pyramid. Even if the gorillas numbered only in the hundreds, could humans have controlled them adequately?

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#255    cormac mac airt

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 11:07 PM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 09 October 2012 - 10:59 PM, said:

I'm glad you found my reply acceptable because after posting it I was afraid I might have come across as flippant, which wasn't my intent. Well, about the gorillas, specifically. I'll be extremely flippant about aliens and creationists and other folks not of this world. :P

I should've taken the time to expound on my post, if only briefly (which isn't easy for me, of course). Archaeologists have recovered a dizzying array of animal bones (and animal mummies) from the ancient Egyptian world, many of them deliberately and respectfully buried by mankind. This includes everything from elephants to shrews. And while countless baboons were interred or mummified, I can't think of any example of the bones of a gorilla dating to the pharaonic period. Were they even indigenous to Egypt at some time? Not that many of the baboons were—many of them were imported from farther south in Africa.

Think of the veritable army of gorillas it would've taken to assist with something like the Great Pyramid. Even if the gorillas numbered only in the hundreds, could humans have controlled them adequately?

Probably not. :lol:

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cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus




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