31 replies to this topic

[Junior Chubb]

I have to go with the misidentification of large creatures remains on this one, whether that is dinosaurs, mammoths or rhinos.

You just have to look at the commotion caused by a semi-decomposed raccoon washing up on the beach today to get an idea of how 'discovering' fossilised dinosaur bones in the past may fueled stories of dragons and other mythical beasts.

Edited by Junior Chubb, 26 September 2012 - 10:05 AM.

[SameerPrehistorica]

spud the mackem, on 24 September 2012 - 09:38 AM, said:

Were Dragons a Myth, or were they real ?. No one seems to have come up with fossilised remains or bones,yet they existed in folklore.The Welsh people have a Dragon on their national Flag, the Chinese have Dragon dancers, and the English must have had at least one,as St.George, the Patron Saint of England is on paintings slaying one.Could these creatures have been Pteradactyls ?, which survived until a few hundred years ago ?Other countries also have reports of Dragons in their lands,so they seem to have been world wide,at some stage in History.Can anyone come up with a logical explanation ?

There ain't no dragons..It's fictional.Only Dinosaurs and other prehistoric mammals are real. You don't need to have a doubt on this.I mean....you don't have to believe things like this which has no evidence.

[spud the mackem]

ShadowSot, on 26 September 2012 - 03:05 AM, said:

A Western dragon has six limbs, sometimes breathes fire, drinks milk, collects and hoards treasure.
They are depicted as having batlike wings which they use to fly.

Eastern dragons, as a counter point, have no wings. The usually have four legs and sport something like a beard. They fly without using wings.

  Ok ,but the Dragon depicted on the Welsh National Flag, is shown as only having 4 legs ?? and small wings,and I believe the Welsh Ladies breathe fire when their husbands are late home..

[spud the mackem]

SameerPrehistorica, on 26 September 2012 - 01:44 PM, said:

There ain't no dragons..It's fictional.Only Dinosaurs and other prehistoric mammals are real. You don't need to have a doubt on this.I mean....you don't have to believe things like this which has no evidence.

  Cheers for that matey,but I did mention that they may have been dinosaurs.Have I seen pictures of more than 2 arms on some Indian Lady ?, called Khali or something ?.Now thats hard to believe.

[gnostic-deity]

i was not aware that pterodactyls survived until a few hundred years ago op....

[Junior Chubb]

gnostic-deity, on 26 September 2012 - 09:20 PM, said:

i was not aware that pterodactyls survived until a few hundred years ago op....

It might be a reference to the tale of a pterodactyl stumbling out of a mine or tunnel being dug in France in the late 1800's or other 'modern day' sightings. Not plausible in my opinion but an interesting stories nonetheless...

[ShadowOfMothman]

I think the so-called "dragons" were probably dinosaurs or other large reptilian creatures.
Other members of the archosaur family tree might be responsible for such legends and myths, such as late surviving pterosaurs.
Ever heard of the Ropen or the Kongamato?

[spud the mackem]

ShadowOfMothman, on 30 September 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

I think the so-called "dragons" were probably dinosaurs or other large reptilian creatures.
Other members of the archosaur family tree might be responsible for such legends and myths, such as late surviving pterosaurs.
Ever heard of the Ropen or the Kongamato?

  Tks for info,never heard of Ropen or Kongamato,but its interesting.were these also Pterosaurs..?

[The Gremlin]

Im pretty loath to go into a mamoth discussion about dragons again, but here's the fruits of previous ones in brief....

Greeks coined the phrase drakon.....referred to a big mythical serpent (no arms or legs or wings, at least initailly)
they widened their world view, and came across depictions of composite creatures, which have their origins in Mesopotamia......hey presto, greek drakons now depicted with various numbers of limbs, and often wings.

Both Greeks and Romans attest to sea-dragon corpses washing up on beaches, they are semi-decomposed baleen whales....it is noted that one culture hunts them for blubber and meat.
other stories of dragons in far-flung places (by greeks and romans) include references to big constrictor snakes, egyptian winged serpent constructs, elephants/ battles between pythons and elephants, battles between eagles and snakes (snake eating eagles).

Near east composite creatures are various, some of which have the ingredients that western, and some far eastern dragons are made of....
The mushush is a creature that relates to the dead, guarding tombs, escorting spirits to the afterlife/judgement....guarding gates.....being deities sidekicks or vengeful aspects of them.....complicated origins which include serpent cults, wild dogs that frequent cemetaries at night (and howling), and possibly an element of totemism/heraldry.
Usumgal....great heavenly dragon/serpent, an epithet given to many gods in songs/prayers/mythical stories....amongst many others....may refer to big snakes/whales/crocs....or all of them.


Some Chinese dragons (long/lung) are very early in date, and appear serpentine initially; though the concept (viewed retrospectively) is depicted differently in different regions.....also other animals, or bits of them are added to make composite creatures...like 'pig-dragon', which may be abstract in concept, or linked to clan totemism and the increasing complexity of such.
Dinosaur bones either initiated the myth, or reinforced it.
Other chinese dragons.....the Bixie (and the other one i forget the name of now) come in pairs and guard important tombs (and consequentially the prospect of tresure)....These have their origin with the Han dynasty, and are an imported idea (with trade goods) from luristan, and ultimately from Mesopotamia.

Welsh dragons can be seen in two categories.....Adders= Gwiber, and Roman (via Sarmatian cavalry) insignia.......and the odd posh pet (crocodile).
I like the idea that the fire-breathing thing started with mining and cave exploration (gasses, and fire-torches= KABOOM), singed hair or fatalities (singed bodies) and the wierd noises sometimes heard underground coupled with fertile imagination.

Cavalry (under a dragon standard) can be a mysterious thing for a hut dwelling savage, especially if they leave firey devistation in their wake.....


Pretty much every other dragon fits in here somewhere...it is a signifier that tended to become attached to any venerated reptilian, myth or legend by zelous victorian anthropologists who stared too long at the 'here be dragons' parts of maps.

there....i feel better now.

Edited by The Gremlin, 01 October 2012 - 12:08 AM.

[Parsec]

Well, like many others already said, probably ancient people used the inductive method in a wrong way.

Another explanation is that dragons can be an archetype in Humankind collective unconscious: different cultures translated it according to their beliefs, but it has always been there. They're the incarnation of principles.
Note that quite everywhere dragons are some of the few mythical creatures that can talk and are depicted as intelligent and wise creatures (usually more than men).


Anyway, I'm more keen to think that dragons did exist, like depicted in ancient tales and myths, but being fire (western) and air (eastern) creatures, once they died, their remains returned to their natural enviroments, leaving no traces behind

[ShadowOfMothman]

spud the mackem, on 30 September 2012 - 09:36 PM, said:

Tks for info,never heard of Ropen or Kongamato,but its interesting.were these also Pterosaurs..?

Yes, Kongamato is cryptid that dwells in thejungles of Congo. Ropen is a flying cryptid from Papua New Guinea. Both of them are considered to be pterosaurs,

[The Gremlin]

Parsec, on 01 October 2012 - 10:40 PM, said:

Well, like many others already said, probably ancient people used the inductive method in a wrong way.

Another explanation is that dragons can be an archetype in Humankind collective unconscious: different cultures translated it according to their beliefs, but it has always been there. They're the incarnation of principles.
Note that quite everywhere dragons are some of the few mythical creatures that can talk and are depicted as intelligent and wise creatures (usually more than men).


Anyway, I'm more keen to think that dragons did exist, like depicted in ancient tales and myths, but being fire (western) and air (eastern) creatures, once they died, their remains returned to their natural enviroments, leaving no traces behind

Jung's explaination? It certainly has merit.......we were prey at some point after all......dreams are there to prepare us.

Edited by The Gremlin, 02 October 2012 - 09:26 PM.

[taniwha]

"...And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon..."
"...So the great dragon was cast out, (of heaven) that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him..."   Rev 12:1...onwards,  Holy Bible

a terrifying account of a truly terrifying dragon

[ShadowOfMothman]

taniwha, on 04 October 2012 - 05:53 AM, said:

"...And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon..."
"...So the great dragon was cast out, (of heaven) that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him..."   Rev 12:1...onwards,  Holy Bible

a terrifying account of a truly terrifying dragon

Wow... seriously, I don't mean to be offensive but I'm not buying this kind of stuff.
If dragons exist(pterosaurs probably) or existed, they would be normal creatures, not demonic entities...

Edited by ShadowOfMothman, 04 October 2012 - 12:53 PM.

[SameerPrehistorica]

spud the mackem, on 26 September 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

Cheers for that matey,but I did mention that they may have been dinosaurs.Have I seen pictures of more than 2 arms on some Indian Lady ?, called Khali or something ?.Now thats hard to believe.

Dragons are not Dinosaurs.As already said,that it is fictional and that Khali which you are talking about is the same fictional.It's one of the Hindhu God. You are saying that is hard to believe..Really funny to hear that..I mean,it's not real. who told you to believe that ? I can also create some animal having 10 legs...What is the difference ? Nothing.