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Toltecs caused Maya collapse?


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#1    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 11:49 AM

The Classic Maya Collapse refers to the decline of the Mayan Classic Period and abandonment of the Classic Period Maya cities of the southern Maya lowlands of Mesoamerica between the 8th and 9th centuries.
Toltecs took power from 8 century.To be exact around 750.
Toltecs were military state who established army of Coyotes, Eaglewarriors, Jaguars.

Edited by Melo, 19 August 2013 - 11:51 AM.

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#2    Clobhair-cean

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 01:44 PM

The furthest extent of Toltec artefacts is also hundreds of kilometres from the closest areas of Maya influence, so it is highly unlikely that the Toltecs had any major effect on the Maya.


#3    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 02:14 PM

View PostClobhair-cean, on 19 August 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

The furthest extent of Toltec artefacts is also hundreds of kilometres from the closest areas of Maya influence, so it is highly unlikely that the Toltecs had any major effect on the Maya.

Wrong.

They didnt go to trade. They were there for feeding gods. That may explain disapearence of Mayans.
They were abducted. Not by aliens but by Toltecs.
Archaeology shows that you are wrong. Mayans were in Mexico as tribes who separate from Mayans, Huastecs. They were also in Teotihuacan which was destroyed by Toltecs (as some believe).
Also we know that they were all tightly connected.
Olmecs influenced Mayans and Zapotecs and people in Teotihuacan. Among others as others Chichimecs. Also Cholula,Totonacs (which with Mayans I like the most), Mixtecs, Mexica,Guerrero. Then west mexico as Colima, Jalisco, Nayarit. I could name more of them.
We also know that there are links between Tula, capital of Toltecs and Chichen Itza which is Mayan city.
Also Mayans were on platou of Mexico.

Edited by Melo, 19 August 2013 - 02:58 PM.

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#4    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 03:23 PM

Teotihuacan in the 4th century AD conquered Tikal. So idea of going south was nothing new.
Uxmal was conquered by Toltecs in 1000s.

Edited by Melo, 19 August 2013 - 03:37 PM.

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#5    Clobhair-cean

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 07:09 PM

View PostMelo, on 19 August 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

Wrong.

They didnt go to trade. They were there for feeding gods. That may explain disapearence of Mayans.
They were abducted. Not by aliens but by Toltecs.
Archaeology shows that you are wrong. Mayans were in Mexico as tribes who separate from Mayans, Huastecs. They were also in Teotihuacan which was destroyed by Toltecs (as some believe).
Also we know that they were all tightly connected.
Olmecs influenced Mayans and Zapotecs and people in Teotihuacan. Among others as others Chichimecs. Also Cholula,Totonacs (which with Mayans I like the most), Mixtecs, Mexica,Guerrero. Then west mexico as Colima, Jalisco, Nayarit. I could name more of them.
We also know that there are links between Tula, capital of Toltecs and Chichen Itza which is Mayan city.
Also Mayans were on platou of Mexico.

Huh? No respectable person says the Maya were abducted by aliens. Their collapse is pretty well-explained by ecological models that point the finger at extended droughts. And the Maya were still very much around after the collapse, until the Spanish invasion. The Huastecs were not the Maya, they split thousands of years before the Collapse and the Maya civilisation never extended as far as Teotihuacan, there is no evidence for anything of the sort. They also didn't come anywhere close to the Plateau of Mexico, I have no idea where you are getting this. The only Mexican states they've ever been associated with, Tabasco and Chiapas are nowhere near the Plateau.

Simply, there is no evidence for any conflict between the Toltecs and the Maya around the Collapse.


#6    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 07:18 PM

View PostClobhair-cean, on 19 August 2013 - 07:09 PM, said:

Maya civilisation never extended as far as Teotihuacan,

Simply, there is no evidence for any conflict between the Toltecs and the Maya around the Collapse.

Mayans were among people in Teotihuacan as many historians believe. Look at wiki its probably there too.
Second, Uxmal was conquered by Toltecs in 1000s.

edit: Also Maya collapse isnt explained just by drought. By war, deforestation, erosion, drought, water problems.
Prroblems accumulated over years.

South Mayans fell from different reasons then North. :tu:

Edited by Melo, 19 August 2013 - 07:22 PM.

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#7    DieChecker

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 02:40 AM

It seems that all these Meso America threads all have the term "Some believe" in them. Well, "Some believe" that all this is just myth. Unless there are bones and artifacts, it is just opinion, and opinion is not proof.

Unless there have been recently published papers, I've only heard what Clob says about the Maya. They were not wiped out or carried off, but were forced to retreat for the cities due to famine/drought. Maybe you could point out some resources that back your claims of the Maya living that far North and West? Or your claims of the Toltecs taking Maya as prisoners, cities-full at a time? If you could show either of those, it would go a long way toward convincing others.

Telling others to go look it up, on the other hand, is a fast way to get the Skeptics to call you a liar.

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#8    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 08:18 AM

View PostDieChecker, on 20 August 2013 - 02:40 AM, said:

It seems that all these Meso America threads all have the term "Some believe" in them. Well, "Some believe" that all this is just myth. Unless there are bones and artifacts, it is just opinion, and opinion is not proof.

Unless there have been recently published papers, I've only heard what Clob says about the Maya. They were not wiped out or carried off, but were forced to retreat for the cities due to famine/drought. Maybe you could point out some resources that back your claims of the Maya living that far North and West? Or your claims of the Toltecs taking Maya as prisoners, cities-full at a time? If you could show either of those, it would go a long way toward convincing others.

Telling others to go look it up, on the other hand, is a fast way to get the Skeptics to call you a liar.

I never usew word liar and not "some believe." Most historians. When I said south and north Maya I was thinking, as any historian who study subject on Mayans south of Yucatan and on top of it. Copan is on south.While Tulum is north.

In 1946 Chemist Giles Healey stuble upon Bonampak in Mexico near border with Guatemala. He become Mayan archeologist.
He studied curare before in South america. There we have frescoes. Anyway that city was south. Uxmal was north. Chichen Itza is north.

South fell from different reasons then north. If we can generalize. Because Maya were city state and each city should be studied on own.

Last record from Copan was 822. In 850 palace was burned.950 in Copan live 15 000 people. 54% of record number of 27 000 people. To 1250 there was no people there.
Region Puuc to 700 was lonely place and 750 starts to flourish with peak 950-1000.
El Mirador was abandon 150 AD.
Chichen Itza was established after 850, 1000 center, 1250 sacked.
After 800 90-99% Mayans disapeared.


My idea of this thread to see what Umers think, did Toltecs have major role in their collapse. Because we already know that they interfier in destinies of some cities/states.

Edited by Melo, 20 August 2013 - 08:19 AM.

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#9    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 08:28 AM

You know that historians dont have clue how links between Chichen Itza and Tula, capital of Toltecs, comes to be. I mean there is no census.

Around 900 AD Toltecs raid Teotihuacan under Mixcoatl or Cloud snake. His son created Toltec state. Quetzalcoatl cult appears in Toltec society. Then Quetzalcoatl came to Maya. In Chichen Itza and Mayapan. And Uxmal was sacked.


edit: It was nothing new. Teotihuacan, for example, interfiers in Tikal, and in Tenochtitlan. They were different but they didnt have China walls around them.
When Spainyards came Aztec empire was to Guatemala.

Edited by Melo, 20 August 2013 - 08:44 AM.

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#10    Clobhair-cean

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 08:40 AM

Yes, Mesoamerican civilisations were closely interlinked, this is nothing new. Nor does it prove that a Toltec invasion caused the collapse of the Maya. There is simply no evidence for this assertion, what your are doing is pure conjecture.


#11    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 08:45 AM

View PostClobhair-cean, on 20 August 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

Yes, Mesoamerican civilisations were closely interlinked, this is nothing new. Nor does it prove that a Toltec invasion caused the collapse of the Maya. There is simply no evidence for this assertion, what your are doing is pure conjecture.

No I simply connected dots. You know game "connect dots"?
Im not saying that I connected them right. But I see some logic "shape".

Edited by Melo, 20 August 2013 - 08:47 AM.

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#12    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 08:54 AM

Founder of Copan "Kinich Yax Kuk Mo" was in Tikal. He was called "Lord of the west". His tomb had Teotihuacan characteristics.
Teotihuacan presence in Tikal faded in 700s. And its not just culture but politc.
So we can see that Teotihuacan interfier in Maya cities. Then Toltecs took their role. Now why would they stop this trend? They were more organized military then Teotihuacan.
And in the end we see their presence in Chichen Itza, Mayapan, Uxmal. Could it be that they interfier in south Mayan cities too?

Its hard to me to believe that Teotihuacan came to Copan. Aztecs to Guatemala. Yet only Toltecs, who ruled between those two in Mexico and who were military state didnt go to Yucatan. And we know that their interfier in north Mayans cities.
Could it be that they interfier in south too?
Maybe they didnt conquered them. Maybe Mayans didnt resist. Maybe they ruined them economicly and demographicly.
They came for taxes and people. And Mayans provide them far as they can.

Timelines perfectly match. Mayans falls cca 8th and 9th centuries. Toltecs took power about same time.
One falls other flourished. Coincidence?

Edited by Melo, 20 August 2013 - 09:11 AM.

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#13    Clobhair-cean

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 09:49 AM

You still have absolutely no evidence apart from layman's guesses. We can continue the debate once you start citing sources and propose how the Toltecs (historians don't even agree whether they were a political entity in the first place) could have taken over hundreds of independent city states without anyone having any kind of records of this immense conquest.


#14    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 09:57 AM

View PostClobhair-cean, on 20 August 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

You still have absolutely no evidence apart from layman's guesses. We can continue the debate once you start citing sources and propose how the Toltecs (historians don't even agree whether they were a political entity in the first place) could have taken over hundreds of independent city states without anyone having any kind of records of this immense conquest.

On many things historians dont agree. Especially in Mesoamerica. Whats Olmec language and ethnicity? Who built Teotihuacan? How many people were sacrifced in Mesoamerica.
Tula was regional power which was destroyed by Chichimecs, Mexica which we call Aztecs.
Historians dont know what multiethnic city Teotihuacan was. Why Maya collapsed. Did Aztecs realy saw Cortez as Quetzalcoatl. Aztec-Mixtec and Aztec-Totonacs realtions. Is it true that Cortez didnt saw and heard for Palenque and Tikal even he pass near them.
If we stop discussing every time when we stumble upon thing on which we dont have census we would keep mouths shut all the time.
They were state with capital in Tula and with strong army consisting Jaguars, Eagles and Coyotes units which influence is spread to Yucatan.

You just dodging my questions.

Edited by Melo, 20 August 2013 - 10:06 AM.

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#15    Clobhair-cean

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 04:13 PM

You are not posing any questions, just making baseless assertions.





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