Alan McDougall Posted June 14, 2014 #1 Share Posted June 14, 2014 Hello All, I have long thought about exactly where the soul/mind of an Alzheimer sufferer exist in the End Stage where the person has become so incapacitated that they are zombie like and comatose. Playing Devils Advocate I put a few points for discussion as follows" Could the degradation of the mind due to end stage Alzheimer's disease suggest that the mind and, resultantly, the human consciousness could be transient things. Does this prove that most preconceived notions of an afterlife are fundamentally flawed? Must we be able to perceive, evaluate and understand the afterlife for in to become a reality in the afterlife? E.g. or heaven or hell are creations of the mind which appears dead in the end stage Alzheimer sufferer Mind might not survive without a functioning human body. Does the eternal soul live on? If the consciousness dies then the thing that makes you an individual, self-aware human might cease at that moment also As the disease progresses the Alzheimer's victim goes through anger, rage, violence, depression, regressing to childhood, forgetting current life - almost living in a 'past life' state. in random stages of this disease... The final stage of the Alzheimer sufferer is unspeakably difficult for the family who must look after and nurse the person they loved so much but who is now just a blank eyed robot that somehow retains the ability to eat and drink. . I have seen the terrible devastation of this disease where the person is apparently absent from the body and the body lives on as a mindless biological entity. But the body was the vehicle of the soul of a loved one, is this person trapped in the horror of dark void, or has the mind or soul ceased to exist.? Does this person suffer unspeakably and if we could really establish this, would not positive euthanasia be an option. If God, forbid, I ever got into this state I would welcome someone giving me a huge dose of morphine and releasing me into my destiny What do you think about this vexing problem? The difficult question is can positive euthanasia ever be justified? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+OverSword Posted June 14, 2014 #2 Share Posted June 14, 2014 I used to think this would be a no brainer (no pun intended) If i or a close relative came down with this, once their quality of life deteriorated to a point that euthanasia would be best. Now I'm close to someone who's father, a former professor at Purdue is in the late stages of Alzheimer's and she confides with me about what's going on and it seems like euthanasia is never discussed and apparently was never brought up by her father when he was competent enough to do it. I'm not sure what you mean by putting the word positive in front of euthanasia but I'm thinking that someone diagnosed with this disease at some point is still competent enough to make the call on weather or not they want to be helped along the way once it gets to a certain point. If this wish has never been voiced by the sufferer then for someone else to make that decision on their behalf may be wrong. It's a personal call I guess but regardless I think the law is fairly clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Still Waters Posted June 14, 2014 #3 Share Posted June 14, 2014 The final stage of the Alzheimer sufferer is unspeakably difficult for the family who must look after and nurse the person they loved so much but who is now just a blank eyed robot that somehow retains the ability to eat and drink. . I have seen the terrible devastation of this disease where the person is apparently absent from the body and the body lives on as a mindless biological entity. But the body was the vehicle of the soul of a loved one, is this person trapped in the horror of dark void, or has the mind or soul ceased to exist.? Does this person suffer unspeakably and if we could really establish this, would not positive euthanasia be an option. The difficult question is can positive euthanasia ever be justified? "blank eyed robot" is a cold description if I may say so. I had a family member who suffered from dementia. We watched her go from being the mother of the family to a person who couldn't do anything, in the end she couldn't eat either. When she was nearing the end of her life we took turns to sit by her bedside for almost a week, and when she died we were all there with her and we prayed. She might not have been in sound mind but we strongly believed the real her was still there somewhere trapped inside her body. The family had a DNR on her records. As horrible as dementia is there was never any thought of 'putting her out of her misery'. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+ouija ouija Posted June 14, 2014 #4 Share Posted June 14, 2014 I'm more inclined towards the idea that the mind/consciousness/soul/spirit is retreating rather than dead/dying. So that there is, so to speak, an ever-thinning cord/thread of consciousness/soul that is still attached to the physical body but is gradually returning/retreating to it's Source. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Still Waters Posted June 14, 2014 #5 Share Posted June 14, 2014 I'm more inclined towards the idea that the mind/consciousness/soul/spirit is retreating rather than dead/dying. So that there is, so to speak, an ever-thinning cord/thread of consciousness/soul that is still attached to the physical body but is gradually returning/retreating to it's Source. That's a nice way of putting it 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan McDougall Posted June 14, 2014 Author #6 Share Posted June 14, 2014 I used to think this would be a no brainer (no pun intended) If i or a close relative came down with this, once their quality of life deteriorated to a point that euthanasia would be best. Now I'm close to someone who's father, a former professor at Purdue is in the late stages of Alzheimer's and she confides with me about what's going on and it seems like euthanasia is never discussed and apparently was never brought up by her father when he was competent enough to do it. I'm not sure what you mean by putting the word positive in front of euthanasia but I'm thinking that someone diagnosed with this disease at some point is still competent enough to make the call on weather or not they want to be helped along the way once it gets to a certain point. If this wish has never been voiced by the sufferer then for someone else to make that decision on their behalf may be wrong. It's a personal call I guess but regardless I think the law is fairly clear. However the law in some countries consider the act of positive euthanasia as murder! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan McDougall Posted June 14, 2014 Author #7 Share Posted June 14, 2014 I'm more inclined towards the idea that the mind/consciousness/soul/spirit is retreating rather than dead/dying. So that there is, so to speak, an ever-thinning cord/thread of consciousness/soul that is still attached to the physical body but is gradually returning/retreating to it's Source. I like your idea and hope it is true for those locked out people! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan McDougall Posted June 14, 2014 Author #8 Share Posted June 14, 2014 "blank eyed robot" is a cold description if I may say so. I had a family member who suffered from dementia. We watched her go from being the mother of the family to a person who couldn't do anything, in the end she couldn't eat either. When she was nearing the end of her life we took turns to sit by her bedside for almost a week, and when she died we were all there with her and we prayed. She might not have been in sound mind but we strongly believed the real her was still there somewhere trapped inside her body. The family had a DNR on her records. As horrible as dementia is there was never any thought of 'putting her out of her misery'. A person I knew some years ago whose father had deteriorated so far due to Alzheimers that all he could do and did all the time was grunt like an animal , most disturbing, but he would not ever consider euthanasia for his beloved father He was almost 70 years of age and his very sick dad was in his 90's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Greenman Posted June 14, 2014 #9 Share Posted June 14, 2014 I don't know. Having an illness like MS is an eye opener on euthanasia. I know people who are what they call locked in, where the mind is there but the body no longer functions and are unable to move or communicate. One I knew was also blind on top of everything else. I used to go in and visit her until her sister moved closer to her. Honestly I hope she has passed on for her sake. I don't think I would want to live like that. Put a feeding tube in and keep you alive to lie there at the mercy of your caregivers in a nursing home, for what reason. I live in fear of it. Just because you can keep someone a live doesn't mean you should. When a friends mother was at end stage alzheimer's she came to me and ask me if I thought they should put in a feeding tube. I told her I wouldn't want it if it was me. What a lot of people don't know about end stage alzheimer's is sometimes it causes neurogenic pain, which can be extreme and can be impossible to treat. (I know what that is like, because I have it from MS.) Each person is different. I like to think we live at two levels, one physical and one spirit. Sometimes the spirit starts to leave before the physical. I have seen ghosts, but I don't know what I am seeing. Last night I saw my late cat lying in my chair, I heard her purr, I reached down to touch her and she was gone. I don't know what is going on with the universe, it is a mystery to me. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted June 14, 2014 #10 Share Posted June 14, 2014 If I ever get to the point in my life where I can't take care of myself on a functional level, I want to be put down. I do not want to burden my family in any way. No machines to keep me alive, no one having to take care of me like I'm an infant. I've seen two people go through alzheimers, I still feel sadness when I think of them. One of them was a neighbor (back when I was in high school), I'd cut his grass for his wife. Because of what he was going through. Before the end all he did was stare at a wall all day and not talk to anyone but me. He thought I was his brother Charlie. I found out that Charlie died during WW2. The second one was an elderly woman who was in the hospital room across from my grandmother (who died in that hospital). The lady would have violent fits. Then one day she ran out of her room and hide behind me, kept say "Daddy protect me from the strangers." I wanted to cry. Every day for a month the nurses would ask me to talk to her. She had no family. I felt so bad for her. She died a week before my grandma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted June 14, 2014 #11 Share Posted June 14, 2014 I have heard of deathbeds where people in near catatonic states have become lucid - as lucid as they had ever been, just before passing into the next world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaraT Posted June 14, 2014 #12 Share Posted June 14, 2014 I could never, ever agree with the deliberate killing of patients (aka "euthanasia".) But what makes my blood boil are books and videos which show people how to end their own lives. The Final Exit is one such book/video which comes to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+susieice Posted June 14, 2014 #13 Share Posted June 14, 2014 Show them you care. Talk to them and hold their hand. They know. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted June 15, 2014 #14 Share Posted June 15, 2014 I could never, ever agree with the deliberate killing of patients (aka "euthanasia".) But what makes my blood boil are books and videos which show people how to end their own lives. The Final Exit is one such book/video which comes to mind. So you don't believe patients have to right to end their suffering? Perhaps that is the reason these books exist, because they can't legally end their life. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan McDougall Posted June 15, 2014 Author #15 Share Posted June 15, 2014 I could never, ever agree with the deliberate killing of patients (aka "euthanasia".) But what makes my blood boil are books and videos which show people how to end their own lives. The Final Exit is one such book/video which comes to mind. I agree but I think a person should have the right to end their lives if they are living in unspeakable suffering and unrelenting intractable pain or those in locked in syndrome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now