Not all Israelis are immune to cruelty.

[Guest]

Is Gideon Levy guilty of telling the truth of his nations inhumanity to the Palestinians ?

Gideon Levy is the most hated man in Israel – and perhaps the most heroic. This “good Tel Aviv boy” – a sober, serious child of the Jewish state – has been shot at repeatedly by the Israeli Defence Force, been threatened with being “beaten to a pulp” on the country’s streets, and faced demands from government ministers that he be tightly monitored as “a security risk.” This is because he has done something very simple, and something that almost no other Israeli has done. Nearly every week for three decades, he has travelled to the Occupied Territories and described what he sees, plainly and without propaganda. “My modest mission,” he says, “is to prevent a situation in which many Israelis will be able to say, ‘We didn’t know.’” And for that, many people want him silenced.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/is-gideon-levy-the-most-hated-man-in-israel-or-just-the-most-heroic-2087909.html

Br Cornelius

[+and-then]

Is Gideon Levy guilty of telling the truth of his nations inhumanity to the Palestinians ?

http://www.independe...ic-2087909.html

Br Cornelius

Touching story. Hope his book sells well. And the Palestinians? Are they all without blame? That other side of the story is always a pesky thing - mostly to be avoided. Edited February 4, 2013 by and then

[Guest]

Touching story. Hope his book sells well. And the Palestinians? Are they all without blame? That other side of the story is always a pesky thing - mostly to be avoided.

Blame the victim - the standard oppressors play book.

Br Cornelius

[A rather obscure Bassoon]

A unsung Hero,truth sometimes comes with a big price.A price he seems willing to pay.

Edited February 4, 2013 by shaddow134

[GoldenWolf]

Blame the victim - the standard oppressors play book.

Br Cornelius

Psychopathy, blame the victim.

[glorybebe]

A unsung Hero,truth sometimes comes with a big price.A price he seems willing to pay.

It's too bad that he has to be in such danger to tell the other side.

[+and-then]

A unsung Hero,truth sometimes comes with a big price.A price he seems willing to pay.

I'm sure the price will be softer to bear once the book is selling well. I don't doubt that he's being singled out and hasseled by the PTB for shining a light on the more unseemly aspects of the "occupation". My point was and is still valid. There are two sides to this story and only an obvious ideologue would deny such a thing. I can see why the Palestinians have a beef with Israel but I find almost no one at UM willing to even ponder the possibility that the opposite might be true as well. For them it's all black and white and Israel is completely to blame for everything. That is a nonsensical viewpoint.

[Guest]

I'm sure the price will be softer to bear once the book is selling well. I don't doubt that he's being singled out and hasseled by the PTB for shining a light on the more unseemly aspects of the "occupation". My point was and is still valid. There are two sides to this story and only an obvious ideologue would deny such a thing. I can see why the Palestinians have a beef with Israel but I find almost no one at UM willing to even ponder the possibility that the opposite might be true as well. For them it's all black and white and Israel is completely to blame for everything. That is a nonsensical viewpoint.

I will consider Israels legitimate beefs when they start to behave in a civilized manner. Until then they are oppressors.

Br Cornelius

[TSS]

I'm sure the price will be softer to bear once the book is selling well. I don't doubt that he's being singled out and hasseled by the PTB for shining a light on the more unseemly aspects of the "occupation". My point was and is still valid. There are two sides to this story and only an obvious ideologue would deny such a thing. I can see why the Palestinians have a beef with Israel but I find almost no one at UM willing to even ponder the possibility that the opposite might be true as well. For them it's all black and white and Israel is completely to blame for everything. That is a nonsensical viewpoint.

I don't doubt your right ref: the other view. However, it does seem (from just a casual observers point of view) that when you have indiscriminate attacks v's collective punishment, it's kinda hard to feel sorry for those doing the latter. That said, i'm kinda running out of sympathy for both sides lately..

[Yamato]

"Attacking" who you can -how you can- is the farthest thing from indiscriminate, it's eminently practical because it's the only way possible. If violence is the only thing that Israel understands, it needs a healthier dose of it. This perpetual media-fed nonsense of expecting Palestinians to negotiate from a position of literally being wiped off the map is drunkenly preposterous and disgustingly hypocritical. They can't even have the oft-alleged desire to do what Israel is doing right in front of our noses. If fighting to the death is the only way to defend freedom and country, we should set our expectations accordingly. More power to the people, lock and load.

I will consider Israels legitimate beefs when they start to behave in a civilized manner. Until then they are oppressors.

I presume you meant you will consider Israel's beefs legitimate when they start to behave.

.

[Guest]

I presume you meant you will consider Israel's beefs legitimate when they start to behave.

Not quite - the Israelis do have legitimate objections to been attacked indiscriminately by random rocket attacks.

Its just that at the moment those pale compared to the systematic genocide and displacement which the Israelis have perpetrated since the foundation of the state.

The article sums it up nicely - the state of Israel has systematically dehumanised the Palestinians as a national propaganda policy. This is always the first step in legitimizing genocide of another race.

Br Cornelius

Edited February 4, 2013 by Guest

[Yamato]

Not quite - the Israelis do have legitimate objections to been attacked indiscriminately by random rocket attacks.

Br Cornelius

Legitimate objections, to their own government's policies, yeah.

Using primitive weapons without fire control or any chance of killing anyone isn't indiscriminate. It's firing what you have to fire. If all it does is make a political statement, it serves a purpose. This false dichotomy that the Zionist rhetoric always raises, trying to delegitimize Palestinian resistance by comparing its technological capability to Israel's is just more rhetorical nonsense. Israel unlike Palestine always "aims" and they always kill many times more innocent civilians than enemy combatants. I think deliberately killing innocents is far worse than having no other choice and doing it. You want discriminate killings as if that's what would make Israeli objections illegitimate? Then help finance flooding the Palestinian land with sniper rifles and anti-tank weapons. Or at least advocate for them with your words. I'm sure every Palestinian would vastly prefer to bomb the Knesset than launch another bottle rocket into a desolate stretch of dirt. Palestinian desire to aim and hit meaningful targets is as great as anyone's ever was. Making that kind of political hay out of a lack of hardware prowess caused by being besieged by the criminal force control of Israel is exactly what the Zionists want you to believe. Don't hedge for Zion and think you're being fair minded. It's total bologna to the core.

[A rather obscure Bassoon]

I'm sure the price will be softer to bear once the book is selling well. I don't doubt that he's being singled out and hasseled by the PTB for shining a light on the more unseemly aspects of the "occupation". My point was and is still valid. There are two sides to this story and only an obvious ideologue would deny such a thing. I can see why the Palestinians have a beef with Israel but I find almost no one at UM willing to even ponder the possibility that the opposite might be true as well. For them it's all black and white and Israel is completely to blame for everything. That is a nonsensical viewpoint.

Last time I looked Isreal had all the Tanks and Bulldozers.With an Election looming Bibi decided to poke the Hornets nest and he got the desired response.

[+and-then]

I don't doubt your right ref: the other view. However, it does seem (from just a casual observers point of view) that when you have indiscriminate attacks v's collective punishment, it's kinda hard to feel sorry for those doing the latter. That said, i'm kinda running out of sympathy for both sides lately..

I tend to agree. Even as a supporter I grow weary at times with the stupidity of some of the actions of those on the ground. I feel that it has become like some dreary, deadly game to them and they have forgotten that those they are defending against are human too. I hold no brief for those that act arrogantly and harm the innocent. But I also can see both sides at fault not just one.

[ExpandMyMind]

Blame the victim - the standard oppressors play book.

Br Cornelius

It's a strange one, Br. Israelis used to have a lot more sympathy for the Palestinians and it was almost exclusively the government that supported the Occupation. This is understandable when we consider the left mindset of Jews due to their own oppression for God-knows how long. But since the 90s there has been an entire generation of Israelis who have grown up during the age of cafe and bus suicide bombings. They, too, are now able to easily hate the other side, blinded by hate that makes them unable to see the whole picture, which has played right into the governments' hands and is what has led to the rise of the right in Israeli politics and mindset.

It has been a serious error by Hamas to attack civilians. While they have now been seen by Palestinians to be the only ones actually fighting for the cause, and this has led to their power, it has also pretty much destroyed any hope for peace for a generation. The governments of Israel now have what is wrongly perceived amongst many in Israel to be the moral high ground and they can continue to stall the joke that is the peace process with far less internal resistance. This is my opinion, of course.

[Zaphod222]

Not quite - the Israelis do have legitimate objections to been attacked indiscriminately by random rocket attacks.

Its just that at the moment those pale compared to the systematic genocide and displacement which the Israelis have perpetrated since the foundation of the state.

Br Cornelius

Get real. 15% of the population of Israel is muslim Arab, they have full citizen rights and enjoy equal protection under the law. Can you say the same about the Jewish population in any of the Arab countries surrounding Israel? (Syria under Assad, OK.... but that chapter is coming to an end).

The West Bank is a unsolvable problem. Ideally, it should be handed back to Jordan, but unsurprisingly Jordan does not want the trouble.

But "genocide"??? Go get a dictionary, learnn some facts, and stop spouting this hysteric nonsense, largely based on islamist propaganda talking points.

[+and-then]

It's a strange one, Br. Israelis used to have a lot more sympathy for the Palestinians and it was almost exclusively the government that supported the Occupation. This is understandable when we consider the left mindset of Jews due to their own oppression for God-knows how long. But since the 90s there has been an entire generation of Israelis who have grown up during the age of cafe and bus suicide bombings. They, too, are now able to easily hate the other side, blinded by hate that makes them unable to see the whole picture, which has played right into the governments' hands and is what has led to the rise of the right in Israeli politics and mindset.

It has been a serious error by Hamas to attack civilians. While they have now been seen by Palestinians to be the only ones actually fighting for the cause, and this has led to their power, it has also pretty much destroyed any hope for peace for a generation. The governments of Israel now have what is wrongly perceived amongst many in Israel to be the moral high ground and they can continue to stall the joke that is the peace process with far less internal resistance. This is my opinion, of course.

I think Hamas is beginning to finally realize this error. They are reaching out to Fatah and the PA to present a united front for these negotiations that the EU will push in March. Something could actually come of this if they remain generally peaceful in their approach. I guess they finally realized that armed conflict is useless so now they are trying another tack.

[Guest]

Get real. 15% of the population of Israel is muslim Arab, they have full citizen rights and enjoy equal protection under the law. Can you say the same about the Jewish population in any of the Arab countries surrounding Israel? (Syria under Assad, OK.... but that chapter is coming to an end).

The West Bank is a unsolvable problem. Ideally, it should be handed back to Jordan, but unsurprisingly Jordan does not want the trouble.

But "genocide"??? Go get a dictionary, learnn some facts, and stop spouting this hysteric nonsense, largely based on islamist propaganda talking points.

Systematically targeting a racially specific civilian population with deadly force over decades is genocide. Simple.

Propaganda against a specific racial group prepares the population to be immune to the consequences of systematic genocide.

The west bank is insoluble since the Israeli occupying force is systematically displacing its native population and replacing it with settler communities to achieve the dream of a greater Israel.

Br Cornelius

Edited February 9, 2013 by Guest

[Guest]

I think Hamas is beginning to finally realize this error. They are reaching out to Fatah and the PA to present a united front for these negotiations that the EU will push in March. Something could actually come of this if they remain generally peaceful in their approach. I guess they finally realized that armed conflict is useless so now they are trying another tack.

Dropping the armed conflict only becomes a viable option when backed by a powerful external force. Been the weaker party with no significant backers leaves little but armed resistance. Lets hope that the EU is sincere and acts as a significant counterbalance to the malign influence of the biased USA who has always favoured Israel in all previous negotiations.

Br Cornelius

Edited February 9, 2013 by Guest

[+and-then]

Dropping the armed conflict only becomes a viable option when backed by a powerful external force. Been the weaker party with no significant backers leaves little but armed resistance. Lets hope that the EU is sincere and acts as a significant counterbalance to the malign influence of the biased USA who has always favoured Israel in all previous negotiations.

Br Cornelius

Then I sincerely hope that the EU "powerful external force" does act as such a counter balance. I have every confidence that Hamas, the PA and Fatah will return quite quickly (unseemly so) to their path of "resistance" even after gaining concessions and more land. And at that point the Israelis will have a choice to make about their concept of what they want Israel to be. Do they want to attempt to live in a majority Muslim nation or will they stand and fight for a Jewish homeland. They will be left with no other choice at some point because the world will be relentless in achieving the goal that the Palestinians seek.