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where did the "sumerians" come from?


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#1    Aus Der Box Skeptisch

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 01:41 AM

I have read a cornucopia of information regarding the sumerians. Yet, one glaring question remains for me. "Where did they come from? They literally had their own language that didn't seem to relate to any know speech from the area. It seemed like cuneiform was an already established form of writing for them. While most of their advances with farming and such simply came with time and the first "civilization" grew from what they had started I ask you, how were they so individualized and advanced at that time?

To quote a webpage I was glancing at which gave rise to this post:
http://history-world.org/sumeria.htm
The original homeland of the Sumerians is unknown. It is believed that they came from the east, but whether by sea or from the highlands is unknown. Their language is not related to those major language families that later appear in the Near East - Semites and Indo-Europeans. (The original home of the Semitic-speaking peoples is thought to have been the Arabian peninsula, while the Indo-Europeans seem to be migrated from the region north of the Black and Caspian seas. A third, much smaller language family is the Hamitic, which included the Egyptians and other peoples of northeastern Africa.)

I hope to see a good discussion soon. As this query in particular is quite intriguing to me.
Thank you in advance.

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#2    maca02

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 01:44 AM

View PostAus Der Box Skeptisch, on 25 August 2010 - 01:41 AM, said:

I have read a cornucopia of information regarding the sumerians. Yet, one glaring question remains for me. "Where did they come from? They literally had their own language that didn't seem to relate to any know speech from the area. It seemed like cuneiform was an already established form of writing for them. While most of their advances with farming and such simply came with time and the first "civilization" grew from what they had started I ask you, how were they so individualized and advanced at that time?

To quote a webpage I was glancing at which gave rise to this post:
http://history-world.org/sumeria.htm
The original homeland of the Sumerians is unknown. It is believed that they came from the east, but whether by sea or from the highlands is unknown. Their language is not related to those major language families that later appear in the Near East - Semites and Indo-Europeans. (The original home of the Semitic-speaking peoples is thought to have been the Arabian peninsula, while the Indo-Europeans seem to be migrated from the region north of the Black and Caspian seas. A third, much smaller language family is the Hamitic, which included the Egyptians and other peoples of northeastern Africa.)

I hope to see a good discussion soon. As this query in particular is quite intriguing to me.
Thank you in advance.

Erm..................Mesopotamia :innocent:

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#3    Aus Der Box Skeptisch

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 01:48 AM

That seems silly wasn't the land referred to as mesopatamia after the civilization gave rise? Also babylon and babylonia later.?

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#4    Abramelin

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 02:33 AM

Hungarians would love to tell you that the Sumerians came from their country, but that's what the Rumanians say too, lol.

Let's say they would agree on the Balkans, based on script found there that resembles the precursor of the Sumerian cuneiform script.

And I read somewhere that the Sumerians themselves say they came from the north, but I don't know what's true about that.


#5    Aus Der Box Skeptisch

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 02:36 AM

Excellent thank you for your post abramelin that gives me another route to start researching.

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#6    jaylemurph

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 02:40 AM

View PostAus Der Box Skeptisch, on 25 August 2010 - 01:41 AM, said:

I have read a cornucopia of information regarding the sumerians. Yet, one glaring question remains for me. "Where did they come from? They literally had their own language that didn't seem to relate to any know speech from the area. It seemed like cuneiform was an already established form of writing for them. While most of their advances with farming and such simply came with time and the first "civilization" grew from what they had started I ask you, how were they so individualized and advanced at that time?

That's over-stating it a little.

In fact, that's over-stating it a lot. We can see the course of it developing over three or four centuries from a more primitive, not-quite-all-the-way-there proto-writing to a legitimate script: http://en.wikipedia....script#History.

Of course, saying the opposite *does* allow for, uhh, more colorful claims to be made ;)

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#7    Aus Der Box Skeptisch

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 02:47 AM

Oh I definitely wasn't trying to turn this into anything "colorful". As far as symantics goes you are correct I should not have said established for that would assume it had already been used heavily and refined. What I was trying to highlight was it's uniqueness in the area.  This is something I will study more. Thank you for correcting me. I really appreciate learning from my errors.

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#8    The_Spartan

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 07:14 AM

hmmmm.....the sumerian cuneiforms were etched on to the sides of the "DIN-GIR"

The hairy apes who roamed around in the area where the DIN-GIR landed were genetically modified to form humans...the humans took up the cuneiforms and formed a language..how is it??? B)

Note : those who can take a hint - DIN-GIR & the stuff is the brainless drivel that one economist turned pseudo-historian/pseudo-whateverian™

Edited by The Spartan, 25 August 2010 - 07:40 AM.

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#9    TheSearcher

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 08:05 AM

View PostThe Spartan, on 25 August 2010 - 07:14 AM, said:

hmmmm.....the sumerian cuneiforms were etched on to the sides of the "DIN-GIR"

The hairy apes who roamed around in the area where the DIN-GIR landed were genetically modified to form humans...the humans took up the cuneiforms and formed a language..how is it??? B)

Note : those who can take a hint - DIN-GIR & the stuff is the brainless drivel that one economist turned pseudo-historian/pseudo-whateverian™

That would be a tad too colorful Spartan..... Just a smidgen   :P

The Sumerians left behind legends that tell of a land "of the gods" which at one time became frozen and cold, and eventually forced them south, if I'm not mistaken, so the Balkans are a good contender for their origins.

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#10    Aus Der Box Skeptisch

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 08:57 AM

Ok with a little research and a direction to look from previous posts here are some possibilities.

Could be from Dilmun. (Longshot)

Some controversal research by Kifishin (I am not familiar with anything this person has done) who linked petroglyphs in Kamyana Mohla Ukraine to be proto-cuneiform and Catalhoyuk turkey to also be proto-cuneiform.

Vinca is another possibility between ukraine and greece it's "proto-cuniform" was found to be older than previous forms dated around 7000 - 7200 bc (mind you the date is an approx.)

Well I hope I brought some decent info to the table. I am not familiar with language or writings of ancient culture.

So guys help me out and help me to understand this more. Thank you to all who have posted so far.

Edited by Aus Der Box Skeptisch, 25 August 2010 - 09:01 AM.

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#11    SlimJim22

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 10:11 AM

View PostAus Der Box Skeptisch, on 25 August 2010 - 08:57 AM, said:

Ok with a little research and a direction to look from previous posts here are some possibilities.

Could be from Dilmun. (Longshot)

Some controversal research by Kifishin (I am not familiar with anything this person has done) who linked petroglyphs in Kamyana Mohla Ukraine to be proto-cuneiform and Catalhoyuk turkey to also be proto-cuneiform.

Vinca is another possibility between ukraine and greece it's "proto-cuniform" was found to be older than previous forms dated around 7000 - 7200 bc (mind you the date is an approx.)

Well I hope I brought some decent info to the table. I am not familiar with language or writings of ancient culture.

So guys help me out and help me to understand this more. Thank you to all who have posted so far.

It is a dilemma and there are no conclusive answers imo. The Balkans is a good bet because of the Vinca script but who were the inhabitants of the Balkans at the time?

I'd also consider a finno-ugric possibility from the north. They were also the first inhabitants of Europe.

I am not totally clear of the relationship with the Dravidians and ancient peoples but I have heard that they were the originators of Guanches, Berbers and various other groups.

Then there is the description of Sumerians as 'black headed' which may be disputed by some. Ultimately, I think Sumer benefitted from an extreme fusion of races because it had such a central location with emerging cultures on all sides so they had the advantage of trading with all of them.

http://uralica.com/fgpeople.htm

http://www.ucl.ac.uk...it/backgrnd.htm

http://www.szabir.co...-and-hungarian/

http://firstlegend.i...theoldones.html

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#12    Harte

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 12:10 PM

View Postjaylemurph, on 25 August 2010 - 02:40 AM, said:

That's over-stating it a little.

In fact, that's over-stating it a lot. We can see the course of it developing over three or four centuries from a more primitive, not-quite-all-the-way-there proto-writing to a legitimate script: http://en.wikipedia....script#History.

Of course, saying the opposite *does* allow for, uhh, more colorful claims to be made ;)

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Jay,

Good to see you bud!

Now, stop holding back.  You know for a fact that the Sumerians were the sole survivors of the bigfoot's massacre of the Roanoke colonists!

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#13    PersonFromPorlock

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 11:35 PM

This Sumerian queen's headdress is kind of interesting, though:

Attached File  sumerian-headdress.jpg   40.43K   47 downloads

Those leaves look like beech or elm leaves; not what I'd think grew on the lower Euphrates, although I could be wrong. Maybe a clue to where they came from?


#14    jaylemurph

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 02:32 AM

You know, interestingly enough, Aus, proto-writing artifacts pop up in this forum pretty regularly. It's just very few people want to see them as such.

Of course, for the life of me, I can't remember the names of any of them. I'm pretty sure if you type in "proto-writing" into the site Search-y box, you'll get at least a few hits from me using that term.

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#15    Piney

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 03:45 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 25 August 2010 - 02:33 AM, said:

Hungarians would love to tell you that the Sumerians came from their country.



Ahhhh....There's part of that Communist "Uralic Theory" again. Please Abe, don't edge anybody on. I have some "commitments" to handle and my UM time is now limited....although I am going to dig that essay up from my "PDF cesspool". It's a comical read.



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