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Is Jesus the Messiah?


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#256    Llucid

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 03:58 AM

well, I don't feel like typing it again, but here is the reason why Jahoaichin isn't an issue.



Quote

Alright, so the problem is Jehoiachin. Well, it's not really a problem then, because God's anger for him was only for a season. How so? Well, lets take a walk into the OT...

The verses concerning Jehoaichin that need to be kept in mind are

"Is this man Jehoiachin a despised, broken pot, an object no one wants? Why will he and his children be hurled out, cast into a land they do not know? O land, land, land, hear the word of the Lord! This is what the Lord says: 'Record this man as if childless, a man who will not prosper in his lifetime, for none of his offspring will prosper, none will sit on the throne of David or rule anymore in Judah.'" - Jeremiah 22:28-30 (NIV)

"'As surely as I live,' declares the Lord, 'even if you, Jehoiachin son of Jehoiakim king of Judah, were a signet ring on my right hand, I would still pull you off.'" - Jeremiah 22:24 (NIV)
Alright, according to Matthew, the geneology was this:

"After the exile to Babylon: Jeconiah (Jehoiachin) was the father of Shealtiel, Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel," - Matthew 1:12 (NIV)
Wait a moment. That Zerubbabel guy, he looks familiar...

"The word of the Lord came to Haggai a second time on the twenty-fourth day of the month: 'Tell Zerubbabel governor of Judah that I will shake the heavens and the earth.'" -  Haggai 2:21 (NIV)

Hold the phone! Zerubbabel is governor of Judah?! But I thought none of Jehoicachin's offspring 'will sit on the throne of David or rule anymore in Judah'? What's going on here?

"'On that day,' declares the Lord Almighty, 'I will take you, my servant Zerubbabel son of Shealtiel,' declares the Lord, 'and I will make you like my signet ring, for I have chosen you,' declares the Lord Almighty." - Haggai 2:23 (NIV)

Oh, I see. God 'pulled off the signet ring', a sign of royalty, with Jehoiachin and then put it back on with Zerubbabel, thus restoring the line.

For more on this check out this site here.
(Edit: Oh boy, I went back and read this and I didn't realize that I sounded so condescending. I'm sorry, it was unintended. I had been searching for an explanation to this geneology problem and I was very happy to discover this. I wanted to relay this in a light-hearted manner by mimicking my thought process and I don't think it came out that way. Forgive me.)



This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.

#257    Lt_Ripley

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 04:14 AM

hey what about Apollonius of Tianna ?


#258    cloud0729

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 04:43 AM

To your reply Llucid:

Haggai 2:23
In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, will I take thee, O Zerubbabel, my servant, the son of Shealtiel, saith the LORD, and will make thee as a signet: for I have chosen thee, saith the LORD of hosts. (KJV)
G-d used the same term with Zerubbabel, a descendant of Jeconiah, that He used with Jeconiah, a "signet ring." Christians conclude from this that the curse was annulled. However, a closer examination will reveal that this is certainly not the case. The curse begins with an oath. "As I live, saith the LORD." How does the Lord live? He lives eternally. G-d did indeed show favor to Zerubbabel, and might even have instated Zerubbabel as king, if not for the curse the Almighty placed on Jeconiah. The Almighty took oaths. Are we to believe that the Almighty would revoke His oaths? The problem with this is twofold.

a. If the virgin birth is true (which is less likely than I can adequately describe, given that a mistranslated prophecy was taken out of context to "prove" it) that would mean that G-d took the throne away from Davidís house, which would mean G-d violated an oath.

b. The curse of Jeconiah taints Josephís line, so that if you theorize adoption (which is without scriptural backing or precedent) you trace Joseph back to Jeconiah, cursed by G-d under another of G-dís oaths

SOURCE: http://www.messiahtruth.com/jesusgen.html

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#259    LogicalPiccolo

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 06:41 AM

I've been following this thread since the beginning just because I am truly intrigued by it. I however, am not educated enough on the subject to add anything, I just like following along.

I did however have a question I think was addressed a couple of pages back. I thought I remembered being told as a child, that it was a sin to call God by his name? That he was known by three names but humanity was not to address him as any of them? Or something to that effect? I'm wondering if it's true why KoZ keeps referring to him as "HaShem."

I'm genuinely not trying to start an argument, but I am truly ignorant to a lot of this subject matter and I'm learning a lot...this was something I was curious about.

Thanks  thumbsup.gif

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#260    Paranoid Android

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 07:27 AM

Quote

TO add to that... *the following is taken from this site.  Please follow link for further reading and details*
The Sanhedrin will be re-established. (Isaiah 1:26)

Instead it wasn't.


Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)

Jesus is dead and leaders can't look to him for guidance.

The whole world will worship the One God of Israel. (Isaiah 2:17)

We know this one isn't true


He will be descended from David HaMelech (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8-10)

Corrupted genealogies.

The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with fear of G-dÔ (Isaiah 11:2)

Jesus insisted we didn't have to follow the Law. Yet as cloud elegantly stated "Duet 4:40 Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, for ever."


Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership. (Isaiah 11:4)

He was killed by evil and Tyranny.

*cut quote*

I've added a source link to your post, COI, here and in the other forum you posted this - your change of Faith has not changed the site Terms and Conditions, I'm afraid.  Please quote all source information.  

That aside, have you really looked into these passages and studied them, or just found a wikipedia article that backs up what you now believe?  I had a quick look through those passages and quotes and could quite easily give you answers that show how Jesus fulfilled these.  Taking the first only, to example - this passage is not necessarily referring to the Sanhedrin.  Apart from the fact that the term did not exist in the Old Testament and could just as easily refer to the Judges whom God appointed to lead Israel during the Israelite's campaign into the Promised Land (see the book of Judges for full details if you wish).  The way I read Isaiah 1, is as a prophecy that Israel has been reestablished into a spiritual kingdom, not a physical nation of people (in other words, during the Old Testament, the Israelites were God's chosen people - since the death and resurrection of Jesus, the gospel has gone out to the world, first to Jerusalem, then to Samaria and Judea, then to the ends of the Earth (cf Acts 1:8).  Jesus is the Judge, the perfect ruler and leader of the nation.  The Judges have indeed been restored, as Isaiah suggested in this passage.

In short, there is no mention of the Sanhedrin from Isaiah 1:26, only of Judges (Leaders/Rulers).  I can continue on to many of the other passages also, if you like.  How about "evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before  his leadership" (Isaiah 11:4).  This is a misquote - there is no mention of tyranny, and only passing mention to evil.  As a Christian, did you believe that Jesus was the Judge who judged fairly and equitably against those who sinned (committed evil).  Those who acted wickedly, did you not believe that their Judgement had been handed out by God??  Is that not what Isaiah 11:4 is heralding?  

You claimed also that Jesus is dead and cannot provide guidance.  Did you not also once believe that Jesus was resurrected?  If this is so, then he is not dead, and your passage which you claimed this in (Isaiah 2:4) still stands as a fulfilled prophecy.  In fact, only a being who lives forever can fulfill Isaiah 2:4, else nations could not get guidance from him.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

All in all, it seems like a Jewish friend of yours who knew more about the Old Testament than you did argued from the position of an Orthodox Jew to show you their point of view.  You did mention in this thread somewhere that you had never read the Old Testament before this.  Thoroughly convinced, you then googled wikipedia to find out passages that help back up your newfound belief.  

Maybe this look at simply three of those passages will give you a different version of events to the Orthodox Jew who you knew somewhere along the lines.  

Good luck to you in whatever you find in your search though thumbsup.gif

All the best,

~ Regards, PA

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#261    Llucid

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 07:54 AM

Quote

To your reply Llucid:

Haggai 2:23
In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, will I take thee, O Zerubbabel, my servant, the son of Shealtiel, saith the LORD, and will make thee as a signet: for I have chosen thee, saith the LORD of hosts. (KJV)
G-d used the same term with Zerubbabel, a descendant of Jeconiah, that He used with Jeconiah, a "signet ring." Christians conclude from this that the curse was annulled. However, a closer examination will reveal that this is certainly not the case. The curse begins with an oath. "As I live, saith the LORD." How does the Lord live? He lives eternally. G-d did indeed show favor to Zerubbabel, and might even have instated Zerubbabel as king, if not for the curse the Almighty placed on Jeconiah. The Almighty took oaths. Are we to believe that the Almighty would revoke His oaths? The problem with this is twofold.

a. If the virgin birth is true (which is less likely than I can adequately describe, given that a mistranslated prophecy was taken out of context to "prove" it) that would mean that G-d took the throne away from Davidís house, which would mean G-d violated an oath.

b. The curse of Jeconiah taints Josephís line, so that if you theorize adoption (which is without scriptural backing or precedent) you trace Joseph back to Jeconiah, cursed by G-d under another of G-dís oaths

SOURCE: http://www.messiahtruth.com/jesusgen.html


that makes absolutely no sense. Governor is a leadership position, a ruling position. The verse is

"Is this man Jehoiachin a despised, broken pot, an object no one wants? Why will he and his children be hurled out, cast into a land they do not know? O land, land, land, hear the word of the Lord! This is what the Lord says: 'Record this man as if childless, a man who will not prosper in his lifetime, for none of his offspring will prosper, none will sit on the throne of David or rule anymore in Judah.'" - Jeremiah 22:28-30 (NIV)

If there was no distinction between sitting on the throne and ruling, then why seperate the two, especially with an or? To use 'throne or ruling' means that there is a difference between the two. now, if God had said 'sitting on the throne and ruling' then I could see someone making this arguement, but that is not what He said.

Does God ever relent once He says that He will do something?


"'I have seen these people,' the Lord said to Moses, 'and they are a stiff-necked people. Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation.' But Moses sought the favor of the Lord his God. 'O Lord,' he said, 'why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? Why should the Egyptians say, 'It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earthí? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people. Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.' Then the Lord relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened." - Exodus 32:9-14 (NIV)

God is merciful and forgiving. He never turns those away who are honestly seeking after Him. He strengthens the weak and restores the broken.


"You showed favor to your land, O Lord;
you restored the fortunes of Jacob.
You forgave the iniquity of your people
and covered all their sins.
You set aside all your wrath
and turned from your fierce anger.
Restore us again, O God our Savior,
and put away your displeasure toward us.
Will you be angry with us forever?
Will you prolong your anger through all generations?
Will you not revive us again,
that your people may rejoice in you?
Show us your unfailing love, O Lord,
and grant us your salvation.
" - Psalms 85:1-7 (NIV)

Edited by Llucid, 13 August 2007 - 07:56 AM.

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.

#262    Bluefinger

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 11:30 AM

Quote

Sacrifice was never a crucial part of Judaism. Not for sin anyway. They didn't only sacrifice for sin. Sin Sacrifice was only for unintentional sins (Lev 4:1).


I would have to disagree.  The Day of Atonement had a sin sacrifice where God would forgive the people's sins for the whole year and place it on a scapegoat.  The people were encouraged to pray with a broken spirit, so that God would hear their supplication.   This event was totally an event of mercy.  If God, for one second, thought that they were unworthy of repentance, the High Priest wouldn't have come out.  How does this fit?   Sacrifice and Repentance both requirements?

I get the impression that Judaism was not always around.  The way they are today fits nothing like they were during King David's Day, or Samuel's Day.

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#263    seanph

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 12:45 PM

Question: Doesn't it make sense to say that the Gospel of Luke gives Mary's genealogy, since it would be nonsense to go through Joseph's line if he is not the biological father of Jesus?

Answer: It should be noted that the Gospel of Matthew sets the precedent for presenting a genealogy of Jesus that goes through Joseph. Incidentally, this genealogy goes through a line (Jehoiakim) that is disqualified for kingship. Therefore, it is not surprising that Luke's genealogical list also gives a genealogy (much different from that given by Matthew), which is supposedly that of Joseph.

The Gospel of Luke provides a variant tradition concerning Jesus' ancestry. In the literal Greek of its genealogical listing "Joseph of the Heli" (Luke 3:23) is just another way of saying "Joseph son of Heli."

Some Christian commentators have claimed that Luke gives Mary's genealogy. Accordingly, it is proposed that Heli is the father-in-law of Joseph, that is, Heli is the name of Mary's father. There is no genealogical record, in either the Jewish Bible or the New Testament, which refers to a man as the son of his father-in-law. There is no verse in the New Testament that says Mary is the daughter of Heli.

To presume that Mary was of Davidic descent presents the problem that Mary could not pass on what she did not possess: (1) Maternal connection does not enter into consideration for succession to the throne of David which is passed on only through a continuous male line: "There shall not be cut off from David a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel" (Jeremiah 33:17); (2) Biblically, the right of lineal privilege, that is, kingship and priesthood, are exclusively passed on through the male line. The incident regarding the inheritance of the daughters of Zelophehad (Numbers, chapters 27 and 36) does not apply here since it concerns the transference of physical property and not privileges of lineage.

Considering Luke's genealogical list, neither Joseph nor Mary could claim an inheritance to the throne of David through Heli. Heli and his progeny would be disqualified in regard to the Davidic kingship if he were a descendant of Nathan. Of all the son's of David, God chose Solomon to sit on the throne of Israel (1 Chronicles 29:1, 1 Kings 2:24).

Whether through Joseph or Mary, Jesus is disqualified from the messianic office.


SOURCE
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq013.html

AND:

B. DESCENDENT OF DAVID

According to Jewish sources, the Messiah will be born of human parents and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, (1) nor will he possess supernatural qualities.

The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David! (2)  SEE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH'S RESPONSE TO THIS QUESTION


SOURCE
http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/jewsandjesus.htm#5

Sean

Edited by seanph, 13 August 2007 - 01:00 PM.

"Any religion whose prerequisites for individual salvation donít conduce to the salvation of the whole world is a religion whose time has passed."--Robert Wright, The Evolution of God

#264    seanph

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 12:55 PM

For 2,000 years, Jews have rejected the Christian idea of Jesus as messiah. Why?

It is important to understand why Jews don't believe in Jesus. The purpose is not to disparage other religions, but rather to clarify the Jewish position. The more data that's available, the better-informed choices people can make about their spiritual path.

JEWS DO NOT ACCEPT JESUS AS THE MESSIAH BECAUSE:


Intro: (What exactly is the Messiah?)
1) Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.
2) Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah.
3) Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are mistranslations.
4) Jewish belief is based on national revelation.
    At the end of this article, we will examine these additional topics:
5) Christianity contradicts Jewish theology
6) Jews and Gentiles
7) Bringing the Messiah

MORE RESOURCES + JUDAISM & OTHER RELIGIONS (AT BOTTOM)

SOURCE
http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/jewsandjesus.htm

Sean

"Any religion whose prerequisites for individual salvation donít conduce to the salvation of the whole world is a religion whose time has passed."--Robert Wright, The Evolution of God

#265    seanph

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 01:31 PM

JESUS FAILED TO FULFILL ANY OF THE SIX AUTHENTIC JEWISH MESSIANIC CRITERIA

GENEALOGY CHART
( Click Here )

JESUS DID NOT QUALIFY: NOTES TO THE GENEALOGIES OF MATTHEW AND LUKE [11] Matthew and Luke made numerous mistakes in their so-called "genealogies" of Jesus that eliminate him from messianic consideration. The numbers to the left of the text below refer back to the numbers on the genealogy chart on the preceding page:


(1)   He must be from the House of David.
[12] Matthew 1 and Luke 3 traced Jesus' lineage through Joseph back to King David. However, the Gospels assert that the "holy spirit" was Jesus' father (not Joseph).[13] There is no indication in the Gospels that Joseph ever adopted Jesus although under Jewish law certain family and tribal affiliations must be through the birth father and cannot be claimed by adoption.[14] For example, if a Jewish priest, (a Cohen), has a male child, he has the status of a priest by birthright. However, if he adopts a child whose birth father was not a Cohen, the child does not have the status of a priest like his adopted father. Since Joseph was not Jesus' birth father, there is no evidence in the Gospels that Jesus was from the house of David, which cannot be conferred through adoption under Jewish law. This eliminates Jesus from messianic consideration.

(2)   He must be from the Seed of Solomon[15] According to prophecy, the Messiah ben David must descend through David's son Solomon. Not only was Solomon a king, he built the first Temple, which has profound messianic implications. Matthew claimed that Jesus descended through Solomon but Luke claimed that Jesus descended through Nathan, David's other son (who was not a king). This eliminates Jesus' genealogy through Luke.


REST HERE
http://www.26reasons.com/reason8.html

Jewish Response to Christians (read page 29): The acclaimed Jews for Judaism Handbook, written by Rabbi Bentzion Kravitz is now available for you to read online.
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/pdf/EnglishHandbook.pdf

Jesus was in NO WAY the Jewish Messiah.

Kindly,

Sean

Edited by seanph, 13 August 2007 - 01:41 PM.

"Any religion whose prerequisites for individual salvation donít conduce to the salvation of the whole world is a religion whose time has passed."--Robert Wright, The Evolution of God

#266    cloud0729

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 03:29 PM

Quote

that makes absolutely no sense. Governor is a leadership position, a ruling position. The verse is

"Is this man Jehoiachin a despised, broken pot, an object no one wants? Why will he and his children be hurled out, cast into a land they do not know? O land, land, land, hear the word of the Lord! This is what the Lord says: 'Record this man as if childless, a man who will not prosper in his lifetime, for none of his offspring will prosper, none will sit on the throne of David or rule anymore in Judah.'" - Jeremiah 22:28-30 (NIV)

If there was no distinction between sitting on the throne and ruling, then why seperate the two, especially with an or? To use 'throne or ruling' means that there is a difference between the two. now, if God had said 'sitting on the throne and ruling' then I could see someone making this arguement, but that is not what He said.

Does God ever relent once He says that He will do something?
"'I have seen these people,' the Lord said to Moses, 'and they are a stiff-necked people. Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation.' But Moses sought the favor of the Lord his God. 'O Lord,' he said, 'why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? Why should the Egyptians say, 'It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earthí? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people. Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.' Then the Lord relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened." - Exodus 32:9-14 (NIV)

God is merciful and forgiving. He never turns those away who are honestly seeking after Him. He strengthens the weak and restores the broken.


"You showed favor to your land, O Lord;
you restored the fortunes of Jacob.
You forgave the iniquity of your people
and covered all their sins.
You set aside all your wrath
and turned from your fierce anger.
Restore us again, O God our Savior,
and put away your displeasure toward us.
Will you be angry with us forever?
Will you prolong your anger through all generations?
Will you not revive us again,
that your people may rejoice in you?
Show us your unfailing love, O Lord,
and grant us your salvation.
" - Psalms 85:1-7 (NIV)

Okay, let's say for a second that the lineage could be passed down from Jeconiah.  Christians believe in the virgin birth correct?  Joseph was not a part of the birht of Jesus, leaving Mary.  Rights do not pass down through the woman according to Jewish law.  Could you explain this to me?

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"To hell with circumstances; I create opportunities."

#267    Lotus Flower

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 07:36 PM

Quote

Well said Sunni

I second that thumbsup.gif


Quote

Well said ????He hasn't said anything ,he's only posted a page full of biblical quotes
                                                   fullywired


Well she has every right to use Biblical quotes the same as many others have done on here thumbsup.gif


Quote

hey what about Apollonius of Tianna ?

Wasn't Apollonius of Tyanna also supposed to have been a reincarnation of Jesus, teleportation being one of his talents?


One crowded hour of glorious life, is worth an age without a name
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The only time you fail is when you haven't tried in the first place!


#268    Lucius Cornelius Sulla

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 07:57 PM

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Wasn't Apollonius of Tyanna also supposed to have been a reincarnation of Jesus, teleportation being one of his talents?

Considering that Apollonius lived at the same time Jesus supposedly did, it would be very hard for him to be a reincarnation of Jesus.  We can show, using contermporary sources, that Appolonius actually lived, had disciples that wrote gospels, and wrote books himself on divers subjects, but we can't show that Jesus ever lived.

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#269    Caana

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 09:24 PM

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The Genealogy of Jesus.
I was studying my Bible, and I came across some things in the Bible (the NT) pertaining to the Messiah-ship of Christ based on his genealogy. According to his genealogy, Jesus cannot be the Messiah. I am confused about this.
What do we say about this? The Bible says (based on genealogies) that Jesus is not the Messiah.
1. Luke's version-Jesus descended from Nathan but the Messiah MUST descend from Solomon (1 Chronicles 28:6-7), therefore according to Luke's genealogy Jesus cannot be the Messiah.

2. Matthew's version-Jesus descends from Jeconiah who is cursed to be childless (Jeremiah 22:28-30).

So based on Luke's Genealogy according to the Bible if Jesus descended from Nathan (Son of David) than he CANNOT be the Messiah. Based on Luke's genealogy if Jesus came from Jeconiah-- no wait, he can't come from Jechoniah because God cursed Jeconiah to be childless.
Now I am confused about the Messiah....

I think of this, and feel like a liar. Here on UM I have been spreading the words of Christ. However, according to the Bible I have lied....I am now confused. Yes, I follow God, but this post caused me to wonder about Christ. Because after that post I was forced to re-evaluate my relationship with God. I have come to realize that in my speaking with God Christ has not been mentioned. God and I have spoken many times before about Salvation, and he talks of himself. He says nothing to me of Jesus. Now I am beginning to feel that I have been a victim of tradition and indoctrination, that in order to remain friendly with those Christian who are my friends I have input Christ into my experiences, only to find that I have tricked myself. That this Christ has had nothing to do with my experiences. Yes, I have absolutely definitely experienced God. I KNOW that I have experienced God. But have I experienced Christ? Not directly. Now am I forced to re-evaluate and wonder.


There are differences in all that stuff, it's expected when things are stolen and/or fabricated. I laugh at the hebrews of old,  trying to cling to something that had nothing to do with them. That was twisted to reflect their own pred. and fears about their truth of origion, so they could talk themselves into slaughtering entire races of humans{body types/ abilities} which no longer walk amoung us. To hide the origion of themselves.

For that, they were/are/will be{ongoing} punished. Before they are erased. For the crime of their assumptions, and the acts those assumptions inspired, from the crazed amoung their people{phropets} They, and other cults like them, will not be going on. He who they have debased with those same assumptions, and lies to prop them up with{scripture} will not tolerate such arrogence.

All the suffering is from them, and those other cults like theirs. Not from the one they have distorted to fit their will{control} For that worthy considers them as you would a pile of maggots feeding on a corpse{parasites} Such groups will not be tolerated, however peacful, as their peace is only contingent upon what those groups want, not what humanity needs, or wants, however much they keep fudging the numbers on polls taken on the number of religious Americans. Or around the world.

All the hate and insanity, and pred. of thousands of yrs of religions and their control. will burst in their faces, and they will cry and moan, as they experiance the fall of all that they believe{that includes themselves as well} The truth will set them free, as that truth will destroy them, and all they have bred. Good or bad makes no difference, you don't drag someones reputation through the mud as those groups do, and expect to get away with it.
Especially with someones image and mind, and voice{speaking for him}

They have defamed both image and mind, and voice, of he who is real, as well as putting in false codes of his behavior, needs and wants. The end will annouce itself, when those who have erected false house's built on those fabrications, are destroyed worldwide, to give peace/goodwill to those who remain, after the tainted one's have been erased.

So that real love will rule those innocent remnants, who have suffered so much at the hands of the insane which control this world. And then, what they have all experianced through these cycles of religious cruelty, agony's and misery's, will go away. The cycles themselves to be erased, never to repeat.
Religious, spiritualist, and spiritual layers have already been erased, all that remains is the memory, what you percieve as life{experiance/base scenario/ last layer}

It will be purged, to trouble no one else. Enjoy what you have however you wish to, it never mattered{denial} you will not suffer, except at the hands of those who call themselves religious, because of belief and faith based on fabrication.

I find it charming, that in many religious story's that talk about the destruction of others outside their beliefs, that they never realized they where reading about their own destruction. Well, the proof is in the pudding, as grammy used to say. Their end began in earnest 7yrs ago{percieved time} All their little survival boltholes will avail them not. The armies they control{religious} will be crushed, their secret supply stations raided of all they contain. Before they end, they will know the extent of he who they defame, When they are left milling around with no food or safety left them, dying in droves. They will suffer what they themselves brought to countless others, and whats more, they will remember themselves doing it, percieved then as percieved now.

All the memories of what an individual has experianced, in detail, resides in your mind{they can't be changed} All those other percieved time and places where they committed their abominations, will torment them before their true and final end. They will cause much calamity in their extremis, further giving reason for their end. At the same time, those he knows and loves, will suffer not the calamities of the religious, and the abomination they call civilization during it's fall.

It is going to be interesting yes.gif  



#270    TheKnight

TheKnight

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 09:37 PM

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I've been following this thread since the beginning just because I am truly intrigued by it. I however, am not educated enough on the subject to add anything, I just like following along.

I did however have a question I think was addressed a couple of pages back. I thought I remembered being told as a child, that it was a sin to call God by his name? That he was known by three names but humanity was not to address him as any of them? Or something to that effect? I'm wondering if it's true why KoZ keeps referring to him as "HaShem."

I'm genuinely not trying to start an argument, but I am truly ignorant to a lot of this subject matter and I'm learning a lot...this was something I was curious about.

Thanks  thumbsup.gif

Oh, your right. God's true name has been lost because Jews weren't allowed to say it. Now we say Adonai but we are only to call God that while in prayer, not in public. In public he is commonly referred to as HaShem, which means The Name (standing for the name of God who's pronunciation has been lost.).





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