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Telekinesis


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#121    inkblot

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Posted 17 October 2007 - 02:41 AM

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I've seen enough first hand and 2nd hand studies and tests to see that this is also real. Again specifically how it is done, is not understood. The one test that I thought was very impressive was Ingo Swamii and his "Jupiter Remote Viewing", where he saw rings close around Jupiter. A tabloid 'took' the information and published it BEFORE Voyager got to Jupiter and found rings around Jupiter and these rings were close. Ingo was just too accurate on the details to be Chance Guessing. To even suggest rings around Jupiter at that time was ... well it wasn't good press for Ingo until the Voyager Pics came back. Now is he 100% all the time Right On? NO --- like baseball players, he's had his strike outs as well.

Swamii also said he saw a mountain range on Jupiter. disgust.gif There's striking out, and then there's screwing up so badly that it puts remote viewing into question.


#122    Jjbreen

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Posted 17 October 2007 - 03:55 AM

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Swamii also said he saw a mountain range on Jupiter. disgust.gif There's striking out, and then there's screwing up so badly that it puts remote viewing into question.


Yes and actually I think it's because he started to get too cocky ... but mountain ranges may not be Out To Lunch ... there is a theory that the Red Spot might be cause by that possiblity ... we do not know what is under the cloud layer of Jupiter .... so I won't write it off -- yet -- "Time will the teller of that tale...."

But no Psi power is 100% - even the best of them. Just like any other talent --- there are good days and off days ...



#123    SOUL-DRIFTER

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Posted 17 October 2007 - 09:48 AM

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So bottom line is: How do you expect a serious dialog, where there is no serious, credible or valid evidence to dialog?


I tried to post some links to good informative programs, but I could not get the links to work.
They are called Mind Over Matter Experiments parts 1 & 2.
At any rate, NINA KULAGINA is a start.
And there has been many experiments involving random generators with results greater than chance.
The two programs went into it very well.

There is valid evidence.
Its not proof.
But it is evidence never the less.


#124    eight bits

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Posted 17 October 2007 - 10:15 AM

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You are just another of the many skeptics that are desperate to see proof.


Well, at least we can rule out telepathy. Lol.

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You are not getting it.


That is an able paraphrase of my inquiry.

I search my post in vain for where I asked you to prove anything. "Proof" is what the sharks go on about. Yes, of course I understand that that is impossible. Contrary to Jerry's testimony, I am not an idiot and I am not thirteen years old.

I thought I was clear in my post: I do not understand what you are claiming, and asked you to help me understand what that was.

Frankly, I could have done without the lecture based on your necessarily uninformed assumptions about what I have or have not seen. At the very least, that is unresponsive to my inquiry.

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Could it have been a ghost, that moved it to amuse me? Or an invisible alien?
Not impossible, but I would consider that more unlikely. Wouldn't you?


More unlikely than what? Your report is too sketchy to eliminate a high school "fun with science" demonstration.

Unexplained convective movement of mass is the beginning of an inquiry, not the conclusion of it. All your framing story about the exercises is, as it stands, post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Example: ask your plumber whether he or she has ever encountered an appreciable mass of water in a place where he or she could not explain its presence? The answer will be yes. Ask further what did it turn out to be, and the plumber may well report that he or she never did figure it out, but the water eventually went away, and the plumber billed for the time on task and moved on.

Example of sketchiness: You wrote that you saw your eyeglasses move. Do you or do you not need those eyeglasses to see normally?

Don't get all blustery if the answer is "No, those were a spare pair." The difficulty is that your report is insufficiently complete to determine the answer to so simple a question as that.

Further, do not get all prickly about "You are saying that I was seeing things that didn't happen." I am not asserting anything, I am asking an obvious question. One of many.

We won't reach the issue of proof until you have clearly stated and described something that is outside the range of ordinary, everyday experience. With respect, you have yet to do that.

Edited by eight bits, 17 October 2007 - 10:24 AM.

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#125    SOUL-DRIFTER

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Posted 17 October 2007 - 11:38 PM

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Well, at least we can rule out telepathy. Lol.
That is an able paraphrase of my inquiry.

I search my post in vain for where I asked you to prove anything. "Proof" is what the sharks go on about. Yes, of course I understand that that is impossible. Contrary to Jerry's testimony, I am not an idiot and I am not thirteen years old.

I thought I was clear in my post: I do not understand what you are claiming, and asked you to help me understand what that was.

Frankly, I could have done without the lecture based on your necessarily uninformed assumptions about what I have or have not seen. At the very least, that is unresponsive to my inquiry.
More unlikely than what? Your report is too sketchy to eliminate a high school "fun with science" demonstration.

Unexplained convective movement of mass is the beginning of an inquiry, not the conclusion of it. All your framing story about the exercises is, as it stands, post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Example: ask your plumber whether he or she has ever encountered an appreciable mass of water in a place where he or she could not explain its presence? The answer will be yes. Ask further what did it turn out to be, and the plumber may well report that he or she never did figure it out, but the water eventually went away, and the plumber billed for the time on task and moved on.

Example of sketchiness: You wrote that you saw your eyeglasses move. Do you or do you not need those eyeglasses to see normally?

Don't get all blustery if the answer is "No, those were a spare pair." The difficulty is that your report is insufficiently complete to determine the answer to so simple a question as that.

Further, do not get all prickly about "You are saying that I was seeing things that didn't happen." I am not asserting anything, I am asking an obvious question. One of many.

We won't reach the issue of proof until you have clearly stated and described something that is outside the range of ordinary, everyday experience. With respect, you have yet to do that.



With respect, no. I wore contacts back then. They fit good and I had no trouble with them.

For your request, here is the details.

The table was an old wood table. I had about a 3/4" - 1" thick top.I believe it was pine.
Before I began, what I assumed would be another failed attempt. I did the routine.
I checked the table for levelness and sturdyness. I tried to rock it and then used a masons level to be sure it was indeed level. I followed this with a smooth marble to be sure of things.
I checked to be sure there was no noticable air movement.
After preparing myself( taking my shirt off, cleaning my hands and arms) I sat down and did my focused visualizing of them to slowly and steadily move toward me.
I couldn''t honestly tell you the time period, but it didn't seem long at all. The glasses moved in the exact direction I was visualizing.
They couldn't have moved much. Inch half inch maybe.
When this occured, I was taken by amazement and total shock.
I recall pushing myself away from the table and pacing the floor for a couple of minutes.
I kept asking myself. Did I imagine it? Couldn't be. I couldn't have done that, or did I.
If I did then I should be able to sit back down and repeat it, I thought.
I rechecked everything as before, and reprepared myself again.
Sure enough. Under my strong visualizing command, the glasses again moved in the same direction I was visualizing(toward me). This time I concentrated longer and they continued to move.
Again I got up, excited but bewildered. Is this for real?
I felt I couldn't deny what I had seen.
I tried it agian later that evening and again as before the same result.

This and having witnessed psychokinesis done, a few years before, convinced me.
You can not consider large trucks and the vibrations they convey, as I lived off a small country road.
In central Wisconsin, we have no tremors, that could have effected them.
There were no storms anywhere nearby.

I would be happy to entertain a reasonable alternate cause for the movement, if you have one.


#126    SOUL-DRIFTER

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Posted 17 October 2007 - 11:43 PM

I would also like to add, that the glasses were mostly nonmagnetic.
Only thing that was magnetic was the tiny screws in the hinges.
I also tried to keep my breathing away from the object.
And as for my hands. I used them to gesture, but I always made sure they were well away from the object I worked on.


#127    Kevin A.

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 12:59 AM

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I would also like to add, that the glasses were mostly nonmagnetic.
Only thing that was magnetic was the tiny screws in the hinges.
I also tried to keep my breathing away from the object.
And as for my hands. I used them to gesture, but I always made sure they were well away from the object I worked on.


SD,

I know it was a rather long time ago but what time of day was it that you were attempting to make the glasses move? Its possible that you do not remember at this point in time. Perhaps you do and perhaps not correctly? At this point its debatable.

Also when you jumped off from your seat did you pick the glasses up or leave them while you thought about what just happened? If you left them were they still in the moved position or the original position when you looked again?

With just a simple story presented on an online forum we can not exclude anything as mundane as an over worked tired mind playing tricks on you. And no it does not matter with much vigor you defend the story...

Kevin


#128    SOUL-DRIFTER

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 02:49 AM

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SD,

I know it was a rather long time ago but what time of day was it that you were attempting to make the glasses move? Its possible that you do not remember at this point in time. Perhaps you do and perhaps not correctly? At this point its debatable.

Also when you jumped off from your seat did you pick the glasses up or leave them while you thought about what just happened? If you left them were they still in the moved position or the original position when you looked again?

With just a simple story presented on an online forum we can not exclude anything as mundane as an over worked tired mind playing tricks on you. And no it does not matter with much vigor you defend the story...

Kevin


It was in the evening, somewhere between 7 & 9PM(best guess) .
The month was September. Exact date.. unsure.

I do not recall if I repositioned them. But really 1/2 - 1 inch is not enough to have to reposition anyway when you start a the table center.
The table was a writing table. Maybe 3 foot by 2 foot ...best guess.

When I felt tired or the least overworked, I never wasted time, making any attempts.
If it draws comfort to simply call me a liar...no hard feelings.
I fully understand.

From your stand point, I'd probably be just as skeptical.


#129    eight bits

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 09:22 AM

Hi, SOUL-DRIFTER.

Thank you very much for your amended report. I really do appreciate your answering.

As I am sure you can understand, there is much to ponder in what you have said, so please let me leave it there for the time being.

If you ever felt like elaborating on your other report, when you witnessed someone else doing this, then that would also be helpful. Please consider it.

Thanks again.

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#130    SOUL-DRIFTER

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 12:28 PM

eight bits on Oct 18 2007, 03:22 AM, said:

Hi, SOUL-DRIFTER.

Thank you very much for your amended report. I really do appreciate your answering.

As I am sure you can understand, there is much to ponder in what you have said, so please let me leave it there for the time being.

If you ever felt like elaborating on your other report, when you witnessed someone else doing this, then that would also be helpful. Please consider it.

Thanks again.


I would be happy to share my other profound experience with psychokinesis.

The year was 1979.
The place was Lake Tahoe, CA..
I was attending a psychic's spoon bending class.
I will not give his specific name, in respect to his privacy.
Suffice it to say it was NOT Uri Geller.
This was in July and I had taken a two week vacation to check it out for myself.
This person claimed he could bend spoon using strickly mental will power.
As Geller and others had in the 70s.
The class had about 12 people that attended.
There was a very famous movie actor that was there as well, but, I really do not know if I should disclose who they were.
Anyway, this class was a 3 or 4 day class involving everything about psychic abilities, diet and a host of other things that was suppose to lead up to us being able to bend spoons as he could.
In short, nobody was truely successful...no surprise.
During the last day one or two of the people got very angry and demanded he demonstrate his ability to do it.
I was skeptical as hell at this point and thought to myself how great it would be if he were to use one of the many spoons I had personally bought that day, that lay in front of me.
To my amazement he reached down and picked up a large tablespoon.
This is those large spoons you might use in a casserole dish for servings.
I swear, there was nothing wrong with that spoon, and it never left my sight.
It was a silver plated spoon.
While standing, with us seated in a circle around him he held it upright in front of him.
A few strokes with his thumb, and within seconds the bowl of that spoon started to fold over on its own while he just held it steadily.
I had meet with many supposed spoon benders and none of them ever did their work as openly as that.
But having witness that, fully knowing that there was no special spoon involved, got me seriously thinking.
There was no sley of hand.
The spoon never left our sight.
The other attendees kept accusing him of trickery and accused me angrily of supplying him with a bogus spoon.
These other attendees that reacted this way were about 3 or 4.
I could not convince them, that I had not helped to do a trick.
I even showed them the spoon he had bent.
They simply said I was a liar and swapped spoons.
I swear this was not true.
What they and all of us witnessed, had no tricks attatched.

And that was my other experience.

Edited by SOUL-DRIFTER, 18 October 2007 - 12:31 PM.


#131    eight bits

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 02:18 PM

Hi, SOUL-DRIFTER.

Thanks for answering once more.

Spoon bending - that takes me back. Let me tell you, if I may, about my first 'paranormal investigation,' although I didn't think of it that way.

I was watching a local TV station's human-interest news show. The guest was a teenaged girl who was painfully sincere. She said that she could bend spoons with her mind, and aspired to apply her gifts to helping others as a healer.

So, she demonstrated. Video is in some ways better than being there, because the television professionals had worked out camera angles and optical matters so that her hands were full screen. Oh - I forgot to mention that she said she bent spoons with mind if her hands were touching them.

And her hands were both touching the spoons, and in motion. I paid particular attention to how she held the spoon and moved her fingers. In close-up, I immediately saw how she accomplished the bending.

The same way you move anything - you impart energy to it. For the movement to be a bending, you apply a bending moment.

I had little doubt about the efficacy of what she was doing with her hands to bend the spoon. What bothered me most was whether I had been misled by her earnest manner.

In other words, the big issue for me was not so much whether you could bend a spoon that way (duh, yes), but whether you could bend a spoon that way and not know you were doing it. (I appreciate that that might be less of an issue for the seminar leader in your narrative, or for Uri Geller.)

To answer this question, I found a wire coathanger of healthy guage (very stiff wire) and cut a spoon-length straight piece. To be candid, I used hanger wire because spoons were expensive, and I was poor. Then and now, however, I have always had more coathangers than coats .

I arranged my thumb and forefinger as she had done, and moved them as she had moved them. I applied only enough force to maintain the two digits in contact with the workpiece during the full movement. It was a repetitive, back-and-forth sort of thing. That much force would not bend the wire in the time allowed by TV production schedules.

Nevertheless, within seconds, I lost coherent sensation in the musculature which applies the force, while my points of contact with the wire went numb. I had no perception of what forces I was applying.

So, I made like people do when they work with a plumb-bob on a string (most people can't much feel the forces they are applying then, either - for different reasons). I thought about the wire bending.

I never felt any change in the forces I was applying (because I wasn't feeling anything relevant in the first place by then). There were no visual cues, either (as long as the rigid metal was intact and straight, it looks the same under a bending moment as free-standing).

Suddenly, the wire yielded. It curled up like a piece of  well-cooked pasta. Even knowing what was happening, it looked weird to me, and remember that I could not feel any appreciable force being applied. Never before nor since have I seen a wire flash over from stiffness to puttiness like that. As it curled over, it felt like I was guiding it more than bending it.

(About 15 minutes later, when feeling had returned to my hands, I probed the wire again. It was as stiff as it had ever been, but now, of course, it was a letter U rather than its former letter I shape. I think I still have that wire some place.)

So anyway, I wrote to the station, and they wrote a nice letter back. The show never did another story on metal bending, so far as I know.

Oh yeah. I don't have any proof that any of this ever happened, and I don't intend to furnish any, either. Believe it or not, as you see fit.

Edited by eight bits, 18 October 2007 - 02:24 PM.

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#132    SOUL-DRIFTER

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 11:59 AM

eight bits on Oct 18 2007, 08:18 AM, said:

Hi, SOUL-DRIFTER.

Thanks for answering once more.

Spoon bending - that takes me back. Let me tell you, if I may, about my first 'paranormal investigation,' although I didn't think of it that way.

I was watching a local TV station's human-interest news show. The guest was a teenaged girl who was painfully sincere. She said that she could bend spoons with her mind, and aspired to apply her gifts to helping others as a healer.

So, she demonstrated. Video is in some ways better than being there, because the television professionals had worked out camera angles and optical matters so that her hands were full screen. Oh - I forgot to mention that she said she bent spoons with mind if her hands were touching them.

And her hands were both touching the spoons, and in motion. I paid particular attention to how she held the spoon and moved her fingers. In close-up, I immediately saw how she accomplished the bending.

The same way you move anything - you impart energy to it. For the movement to be a bending, you apply a bending moment.

I had little doubt about the efficacy of what she was doing with her hands to bend the spoon. What bothered me most was whether I had been misled by her earnest manner.

In other words, the big issue for me was not so much whether you could bend a spoon that way (duh, yes), but whether you could bend a spoon that way and not know you were doing it. (I appreciate that that might be less of an issue for the seminar leader in your narrative, or for Uri Geller.)

To answer this question, I found a wire coathanger of healthy guage (very stiff wire) and cut a spoon-length straight piece. To be candid, I used hanger wire because spoons were expensive, and I was poor. Then and now, however, I have always had more coathangers than coats .

I arranged my thumb and forefinger as she had done, and moved them as she had moved them. I applied only enough force to maintain the two digits in contact with the workpiece during the full movement. It was a repetitive, back-and-forth sort of thing. That much force would not bend the wire in the time allowed by TV production schedules.

Nevertheless, within seconds, I lost coherent sensation in the musculature which applies the force, while my points of contact with the wire went numb. I had no perception of what forces I was applying.

So, I made like people do when they work with a plumb-bob on a string (most people can't much feel the forces they are applying then, either - for different reasons). I thought about the wire bending.

I never felt any change in the forces I was applying (because I wasn't feeling anything relevant in the first place by then). There were no visual cues, either (as long as the rigid metal was intact and straight, it looks the same under a bending moment as free-standing).

Suddenly, the wire yielded. It curled up like a piece of  well-cooked pasta. Even knowing what was happening, it looked weird to me, and remember that I could not feel any appreciable force being applied. Never before nor since have I seen a wire flash over from stiffness to puttiness like that. As it curled over, it felt like I was guiding it more than bending it.

(About 15 minutes later, when feeling had returned to my hands, I probed the wire again. It was as stiff as it had ever been, but now, of course, it was a letter U rather than its former letter I shape. I think I still have that wire some place.)

So anyway, I wrote to the station, and they wrote a nice letter back. The show never did another story on metal bending, so far as I know.

Oh yeah. I don't have any proof that any of this ever happened, and I don't intend to furnish any, either. Believe it or not, as you see fit.



OK.

I'm going to go a step further and tell you things about me that can be verified.

I said I had over 40 years of experiences and knowledge in the field.
Can  I prove that?
Well, not ALL 40 years worth, but I can prove over 25 of it.
My name is MIKE TRUE.
In 1981. 82 and I believe 83, I was listed in the OSHKOSH, Wisconsin phone book.
I was in the yellow pages as a Parapsychologist and Psychic Investigator.
Research could verify that.
I did that sort of thing from the early seventies to the late eighties.
The Appleton Post Crescent, did an article on me, about my work in 1981.
I do not have the exact date, but your research could verify it.
I had an article done on me on same by the Oshkosh Northwestern. It was either that same year of a year or two after.
I have copies of both articles but they are packed away.
Again you could do your research and verify that.
WLUK TV 11, did a interview with me, about the subject of the Paranormal in October of 1985.  
You could easily check that out.


Now.
How much background on this subject do you have???

And can you verify any of it??
Or can you offer something that can be verified???

Thank you EIGHT BITS.


#133    eight bits

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 02:04 PM

Hi, Mike.

Thanks for your biographical sketch. I enjoyed reading it, and I don't doubt any of it.

I haven't made any claims about my own background, except that I know how spoons might be bent, but I can't prove that here. On the other hand, it's not rocket science.

As you read in my story, I was mainly concerned that I had been misled by the apparent sincerity of the TV guest. Perhaps I ought to have been clearer that I concluded from my experiment that the young woman had been completely sincere.

I got this one right, I think. But believe me, I make no claims about my lifetime average on that subject.

There was little suspense, however, that I could bend the wire by reproducing what I saw her do, even though what she did provided nobody, neither viewers of the video close-up nor people with her in the studio, any evidence of the force she applied.

Well, except that she deformed the spoon handle. That was a big hint. Some viewers might have overlooked it because of her story about how she thought she accomplished the feat, and her obvious sincerity when telling that story.

I am not even claiming that because she didn't bend her spoon with her mnd, that it follows that your seminar leader didn't bend your spoon with his. I confess, however, that when I read your story, it seemed to fall short of its advance billing:

Quote

Oh and by the way, I have witness at least one other performing it under strick conditions... in person.


But that's just me.

As to your closing questions, as I said in my post, the story was offered on a believe-it-or-not basis, just as you choose. So, in order: I claim nothing else, no, and no.

It's been great talking with you. Best to you in all things.

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#134    sevendaydemon

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Posted 20 October 2007 - 11:09 PM

this is a very difficult topic to settle really, because if anyone does provide solid and undeniable proff, they might earn a grand but theyll probably be carted off to area 51 to be used in the governments psi program.  Imagine if the U.S. had an army of soldiers fully trained in modern survival tactics, and a host of psychic abilities to go  with them.

as long as the government is run by a******s we'll never be able to give proof without being abducted or shot because of the fear of creating a panic of some sort.

its pathetic really, so unless something happens which is big enough to let the whoole world know at once of the reality of these things we're gonna be stuck at the same point for a while to come.

Good cannot exist without Evil, for what would a Good man be if Evil was not there to test him?

#135    Jjbreen

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Posted 21 October 2007 - 12:23 AM

sevendaydemon on Oct 20 2007, 04:09 PM, said:

this is a very difficult topic to settle really, because if anyone does provide solid and undeniable proff, they might earn a grand but theyll probably be carted off to area 51 to be used in the governments psi program.  Imagine if the U.S. had an army of soldiers fully trained in modern survival tactics, and a host of psychic abilities to go  with them.

as long as the government is run by a******s we'll never be able to give proof without being abducted or shot because of the fear of creating a panic of some sort.

its pathetic really, so unless something happens which is big enough to let the whoole world know at once of the reality of these things we're gonna be stuck at the same point for a while to come.


This continues to be the lamest excuse I've ever heard. Really come on --- please get a life.  I have a friend that has some Psi ablities and proved it online back the late 1990 and 2000 - 2003. He even made bold posts for any and all government agencies to come to house for coffee and even stated his home address. He has been tested for some of his stuff by local doctor's and some people at the U of Wash. and by the way - validated w/no question marks. He has yet to see any gov. agencies at his door.

So sorry -- this excuse is nothing more than a lame and pathetic cop-out.  It's been tested and found to be a bogus concern... it's just a lame cop-out.





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