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Kaaba and the Black Stone.


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#1    GreenmansGod

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Posted 07 September 2007 - 12:05 AM

The truth about Mecca and the Kaaba and the black stone is they have been a sight of religious worship sense Pagan days.

Quote

Mecca: 1st - 6th century AD


The town of Mecca, in a rocky valley with no agricultural resources, develops into a place of considerable prosperity. There are two good reasons. It is a trading post on the caravan route from the Indian Ocean to the Mediterranean. And it is Arabia's most important place of pilgrimage.

During the centuries before Islam, large numbers of pilgrims arrive in Mecca to perform a ritual act of walking seven times round a small square building known as the Kaaba (Arabic for 'cube'). The building is full of idols, which are the objects of worship. It also includes a sacred black stone, possibly in origin a meteorite.
http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainT...?historyid=aa51

So if as Abdullah says "we Muslims are totally against Paganism , our Prophet Mohammed preached pure monotheism"
Why do Muslims pray to an old Pagan shine?  


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#2    bee

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Posted 07 September 2007 - 12:27 AM

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The truth about Mecca and the Kaaba and the black stone is they have been a sight of religious worship sense Pagan days.
So if as Abdullah says "we Muslims are totally against Paganism , our Prophet Mohammed preached pure monotheism"
Why do Muslims pray to an old Pagan shine?


Nice post Darkwind.

I think that patriarchal religions are in denial about their pagan roots....either that or they don't
realise....... thumbsup.gif



#3    eight bits

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Posted 07 September 2007 - 12:35 AM

Hi, Darkwind.

A secular reading of the history of Islam is that Mohammed, a merchant, saw that monotheist cultures, those with Jewish and Christian cores, were prosperous and politically united. In contrast, Arabs were relatively backward materially, and divided by tribalism.

Quote

The building is full of idols, which are the objects of worship.


Those idols, apparently, were tribal totems. There is no god but God demotes the idols, and so the emblems of tribalism, while simultaneously providing a foundation upon which to unify the tribes.

Quote

And Muhammad sweeps the idols out of the Kaaba, leaving only the sacred Black Stone.


This is a great achievement of Islam, according to Mohammed's conception of what he was trying to achieve. It is worthy of commemoration if you are of that faith.

And the locals want to continue in the pilgrimage business. Mohammed the merchant would understand that perfectly well.

A deal is made.

And there may be something deeper as well. Christians converted former pagan sites to their worship often enough. The features that made such sites popular with pagans often speak to the soul in ways that transcend the particulars of this or that doctrine.

The Kaaba is a beautiful structure, awe inspiring. Pagan, monotheist, ... no matter, still a human being, still the same capacity to be touched by that which goes beyond the mundane.

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#4    1.618

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Posted 07 September 2007 - 12:40 AM

Quote

The truth about Mecca and the Kaaba and the black stone is they have been a sight of religious worship sense Pagan days.
So if as Abdullah says "we Muslims are totally against Paganism , our Prophet Mohammed preached pure monotheism"
Why do Muslims pray to an old Pagan shine?


muslims say that mohamed is buried there. was talking about it today with a muslim collegue of mine.


#5    armegon

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Posted 07 September 2007 - 01:34 AM

Quote

The truth about Mecca and the Kaaba and the black stone is they have been a sight of religious worship sense Pagan days.
So if as Abdullah says "we Muslims are totally against Paganism , our Prophet Mohammed preached pure monotheism"
Why do Muslims pray to an old Pagan shine?

It is mostly-tradition and comes from hadiths, it is claimed that prophet Abraham put that stone on the corner when he was building Kabaa and because of this prophet Muhammed venerated this black stone. So today mostly muslims venerated this stone no different than christian cross. Also some muslims use this stone only as a start/end point of circling.
My sentiments about this subject is; these are non-Kuranic rituals like circling about the Kaba, venerating the black stone etc. I also think the house Abraham build refers to the Sytem, the Deen he built. Because Kaba means foundation/base as far as i remember.
So if the verse where Kaba mentioned being more meaningful when above used.

5:97 God has made the foundation, the Sacred House(The Deen), a means of support for mankind, as also the holy month, the sacrificial offerings, and consecrated cattle, so that you may understand that known to God is all that is in the heavens and the earth, and God has knowledge of everything.

These are all done in Hajj ritual, I think Hajj is one of the most twisted conceptions of Islam via hadiths and mostly traditions. Hajj refers to a debate between muslims all over the world. Hajj literally means debate also. Anyways, surely Islam preaches purely monotheism so one have to look at the only source Kuran to understand this not traditions or hadiths, 80 % of  Kuran talking about this.

Surah 112 – İhlas – The Pure Monotheism
Author’s note: This a very brief Surah that very forcefully and clearly
expounds strict Monotheism, nothing confusing about it as Trinity, Dualism or any shade of Polytheism.

With the Glorious Name of Allah, the Instant and Sustaining Source of all
Mercy and Kindness.

112:1 Say, "He is Allah, the One!
(He is Unique in His Essence and Attributes and He alone is the Sovereign
Law-Giver in the Universe).
112:2 Allah is Absolute, Eternal, Unique, Self-Sufficient, Perfect, Independent,
the Uncaused Cause of all that exists, Besought of all .
112:3 He begets not, nor is He begotten.
112:4 And there is none that could be comparable unto Him."



Quote

muslims say that mohamed is buried there. was talking about it today with a muslim collegue of mine.

Im muslim ive never heard of that, i think hearsay...



#6    1.618

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Posted 07 September 2007 - 08:17 AM

Quote

It is mostly-tradition and comes from hadiths, it is claimed that prophet Abraham put that stone on the corner when he was building Kabaa and because of this prophet Muhammed venerated this black stone. So today mostly muslims venerated this stone no different than christian cross. Also some muslims use this stone only as a start/end point of circling.
My sentiments about this subject is; these are non-Kuranic rituals like circling about the Kaba, venerating the black stone etc. I also think the house Abraham build refers to the Sytem, the Deen he built. Because Kaba means foundation/base as far as i remember.
So if the verse where Kaba mentioned being more meaningful when above used.

5:97 God has made the foundation, the Sacred House(The Deen), a means of support for mankind, as also the holy month, the sacrificial offerings, and consecrated cattle, so that you may understand that known to God is all that is in the heavens and the earth, and God has knowledge of everything.

These are all done in Hajj ritual, I think Hajj is one of the most twisted conceptions of Islam via hadiths and mostly traditions. Hajj refers to a debate between muslims all over the world. Hajj literally means debate also. Anyways, surely Islam preaches purely monotheism so one have to look at the only source Kuran to understand this not traditions or hadiths, 80 % of  Kuran talking about this.

Surah 112 – İhlas – The Pure Monotheism
Author’s note: This a very brief Surah that very forcefully and clearly
expounds strict Monotheism, nothing confusing about it as Trinity, Dualism or any shade of Polytheism.

With the Glorious Name of Allah, the Instant and Sustaining Source of all
Mercy and Kindness.

112:1 Say, "He is Allah, the One!
(He is Unique in His Essence and Attributes and He alone is the Sovereign
Law-Giver in the Universe).
112:2 Allah is Absolute, Eternal, Unique, Self-Sufficient, Perfect, Independent,
the Uncaused Cause of all that exists, Besought of all .
112:3 He begets not, nor is He begotten.
112:4 And there is none that could be comparable unto Him."

Im muslim ive never heard of that, i think hearsay...


he's a somali muslim. don't know if that makes a difference. he was clarifying afew things about islam for me-or not.


#7    Abdullah

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Posted 07 September 2007 - 10:44 AM

Quote

The truth about Mecca and the Kaaba and the black stone is they have been a sight of religious worship sense Pagan days.
So if as Abdullah says "we Muslims are totally against Paganism , our Prophet Mohammed preached pure monotheism"
Why do Muslims pray to an old Pagan shine?



interesting topic but i need to correct you here ,

1. We dont worship al Kabaa ,
2. We only worship God almighty
3. We Pray towards the Kabaa , this is a sign of Muslim Unity ( if you would study the muslim prayer you would know that we only pray towards that direction because it is a command from God and our intention is that we worship God alone ,  we dont worship anything besides God
4.let me teach you some history about al Kabaa:
also known as The Sacred House
The qibla, the direction Muslims face during prayer, is the direction from their location on Earth towards the Kaaba.
According to the Qur'an, the Kaaba was built by Ibrahim (Abraham) and his son Ismail (Ishmael
Islamic traditions assert that the Kaaba "reflects" a house in heaven called al-Baytu l-Maˤmur

The early Pre Islamic Pagans hijacked al Kabaa and putted their idols in it ,

When Prophet Muhammad conquered Mecca, he destroyed the 360 idols around Kaaba which the Meccan pagans possessed.

the Qibla is the direction to the Kaaba. Muslims are ordered to face this direction during prayer (see Qur'an 2:143-144). While it may appear to some non-Muslims that Muslims worship the Kaaba, the Kaaba is simply the focal point for prayer.

http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/archives/20...-of-the-kaabah/    <<<< More information and proof that we dont worship al Kabaa

it would have been an intelligent discussion if you would bring proof from islamic sources , but like most anti islamic thinkers you simply quote false websites or false rumours ,  Islam is totally against paganism i advice you to study TAWHEED to understand our Worship .

also an interesting note :  before we pray our intention must be : Bismillah ir rahman ir raheem wich means In The Name Of God Most Gracious Most Mercifull , everything we do is Fisabililah , For the Sake Of God ,  May Allah guide us all


#8    1.618

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Posted 07 September 2007 - 10:59 AM

Quote

interesting topic but i need to correct you here ,

1. We dont worship al Kabaa ,
2. We only worship God almighty
3. We Pray towards the Kabaa , this is a sign of Muslim Unity ( if you would study the muslim prayer you would know that we only pray towards that direction because it is a command from God and our intention is that we worship God alone ,  we dont worship anything besides God
4.let me teach you some history about al Kabaa:
also known as The Sacred House
The qibla, the direction Muslims face during prayer, is the direction from their location on Earth towards the Kaaba.
According to the Qur'an, the Kaaba was built by Ibrahim (Abraham) and his son Ismail (Ishmael
Islamic traditions assert that the Kaaba "reflects" a house in heaven called al-Baytu l-Maˤmur

The early Pre Islamic Pagans hijacked al Kabaa and putted their idols in it ,

When Prophet Muhammad conquered Mecca, he destroyed the 360 idols around Kaaba which the Meccan pagans possessed.

the Qibla is the direction to the Kaaba. Muslims are ordered to face this direction during prayer (see Qur'an 2:143-144). While it may appear to some non-Muslims that Muslims worship the Kaaba, the Kaaba is simply the focal point for prayer.

http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/archives/20...-of-the-kaabah/    <<<< More information and proof that we dont worship al Kabaa

it would have been an intelligent discussion if you would bring proof from islamic sources , but like most anti islamic thinkers you simply quote false websites or false rumours ,  Islam is totally against paganism i advice you to study TAWHEED to understand our Worship .

also an interesting note :  before we pray our intention must be : Bismillah ir rahman ir raheem wich means In The Name Of God Most Gracious Most Mercifull , everything we do is Fisabililah , For the Sake Of God ,  May Allah guide us all


so where is mohamed buried?


#9    Abdullah

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Posted 07 September 2007 - 12:28 PM

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so where is mohamed buried?



Prophet Mohammed saws is burried in al Madina in saudi arabia


#10    GreenmansGod

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Posted 07 September 2007 - 07:07 PM

Quote

it would have been an intelligent discussion if you would bring proof from islamic sources , but like most anti islamic thinkers you simply quote false websites or false rumours ,  Islam is totally against paganism i advice you to study TAWHEED to understand our Worship .


I don't generally use Jewish, Christian or Islamic sites for history studies unless I am looking at something that relates to the history of your books.  The Torah, the Bible and the Quran are not books of science or history they are books on religion. I you feel comfortable with Islamic sites for the study of history then feel free.  I prefer more secular sites myself.  So any web site that disagrees with your percept of history and uses archeology or actual physical  evidence is off limits and anti-islamic. Your right we can't have an intelligent discussion.  
I know you don't worship the stone or the building. As my idol on my alter are not my actually my God and Goddess. The are representations of them so I have an image of them to honor.



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#11    Abdullah

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Posted 07 September 2007 - 07:15 PM

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I don't generally use Jewish, Christian or Islamic sites for history studies unless I am looking at something that relates to the history of your books.  The Torah, the Bible and the Quran are not books of science or history they are books on religion. I you feel comfortable with Islamic sites for the study of history then feel free.  I prefer more secular sites myself.  So any web site that disagrees with your percept of history and uses archeology or actual physical  evidence is off limits and anti-islamic. Your right we can't have an intelligent discussion.  
I know you don't worship the stone or the building. As my idol on my alter are not my actually my God and Goddess. The are representations of them so I have an image of them to honor.


everybody is free to pick his sources to study certain matters , but you study christianity from christian sources , Hinduism from Hindu sources , same you dont buy fish in a liquor store , the claims you made about al Kabaa were just typical hate propogandist claims thats why i suggested you were ,  anyway i know my religion very well , and i know what i worship just like you know what you worship ,  Religious freedom is very important , all religions can live together in peace i am sure of that.


#12    libra II

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Posted 07 September 2007 - 07:51 PM

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everybody is free to pick his sources to study certain matters , but you study christianity from christian sources , Hinduism from Hindu sources , same you dont buy fish in a liquor store , the claims you made about al Kabaa were just typical hate propogandist claims thats why i suggested you were ,  anyway i know my religion very well , and i know what i worship just like you know what you worship ,  Religious freedom is very important , all religions can live together in peace i am sure of that.



Perhaps with the exception of Shia and Sunni muslims?


#13    Abdullah

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Posted 07 September 2007 - 08:12 PM

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Perhaps with the exception of Shia and Sunni muslims?



except for Iraq there are barely no violent problems between Muslims and the Shia religion .
look for example at Saudi Arabia a large amount of Shiites there and there are no violent clashes ,
at the time of Saddam Hussein his rule there were no clashes between the Muslims and the Shia religion ,
in the Emirates are not fights between Muslims and Shiites , Iraq is both a political conflict wich ended in a religious/political conflict ,
we dont concider Shia muslims they hide under the name of Islam but they have unislamic concepts ,
the problem started with the shia in Iraq when they started to support the American invasion , but mainly in the other countries there are no real violent clashes between the Muslims and the Shiites , not even here in the west where i live , there are many shia here but no violent clashes ,


#14    EmpressStarXVII

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Posted 07 September 2007 - 08:34 PM

Quote

I don't generally use Jewish, Christian or Islamic sites for history studies unless I am looking at something that relates to the history of your books.  The Torah, the Bible and the Quran are not books of science or history they are books on religion. I you feel comfortable with Islamic sites for the study of history then feel free.  I prefer more secular sites myself.  So any web site that disagrees with your percept of history and uses archeology or actual physical  evidence is off limits and anti-islamic. Your right we can't have an intelligent discussion.  
I know you don't worship the stone or the building. As my idol on my alter are not my actually my God and Goddess. The are representations of them so I have an image of them to honor.


I think what he is saying just watch which source you get your information from, there are plenty of unbiased sources on Islam on the internet, that are not from Islamic scholars or muslims. But like any religion, for every one legitimate source, there are a thousand false or parody sources. Like the landover baptist forum, for example. The members claim to be a follower of the landover baptist church, which is extremely bigoted, but on the site a disclaimer explains it is a parody site. So If I were to look for a christian source of information, they wouldn't be it.

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#15    libra II

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Posted 07 September 2007 - 08:35 PM

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except for Iraq there are barely no violent problems between Muslims and the Shia religion .
look for example at Saudi Arabia a large amount of Shiites there and there are no violent clashes ,
at the time of Saddam Hussein his rule there were no clashes between the Muslims and the Shia religion ,
in the Emirates are not fights between Muslims and Shiites , Iraq is both a political conflict wich ended in a religious/political conflict ,
we dont concider Shia muslims they hide under the name of Islam but they have unislamic concepts ,
the problem started with the shia in Iraq when they started to support the American invasion , but mainly in the other countries there are no real violent clashes between the Muslims and the Shiites , not even here in the west where i live , there are many shia here but no violent clashes ,



If it hadn't been for a Shia friend of mine I would never have read the Quran. I've read it three times. I guess I love the Quran just as much as him now, and as much as most other Muslims, although I'm not a Muslim myself. Sorry, but the Shias are just as much Muslims as the Sunnis, just like the Ahmadiyyans and many others





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