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Is the Biblical Yahweh actually a dragon?


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#16    northwest

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 01:08 PM

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Fine.  But then explain why cultures all over the world ALL believed in giant talking, flying  reptiles that taught people technologies, liked virgin sacrifices, spewed fire, and hoarded treasure.  Just seeing a few dinosaur bones really doesn't cut it, and for centuries even the most educated men reported dragons as real creatures.  One "dragon" has been reported 10,000 times since 1932, only we no longer use the "D-word" in describing it.


Sometimes a dragon is used simply as a symbol for the reptilian race, or a snake or a winged snake.
but I do agree with you.
Although I think dragons were related to reptilian race. Possibly a vessel of their intelligence since the time of dinosaurs.
In the same way as giants were related to the "human" race of gods.

Edited by northwest, 19 September 2007 - 01:10 PM.

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#17    1.618

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 01:10 PM

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Sometimes a dragon is used simply as a symbol for the reptilian race, or a snake or a winged snake.
but I do agree with you.
Although I think dragons were related to reptilian race. Possibly a vessel of their intelligence since the time of dinosaurs.


maybe dinosaurs were intelligent, sentient beings who taught mankind their knowledge?


#18    northwest

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 01:24 PM

I think the size of their brain speaks well about their intelligence. You can't really channel intelligence permanently into a small brain.
though velociraptors were said to be probably as intelligent as chimps.

but that doesn't mean that dinosaur era didn't have its "chief" highly-intelligent creatures, like mammals have humans.


Edited by northwest, 19 September 2007 - 01:25 PM.

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#19    Archosaur

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 11:24 PM

I recall actually hearing of a hypothesis that Yaweh might have been a pagan volcano god, who was later incorporated into the new monotheist framework of Judaism. This was used to explain all of the fire references and hints at old practices of human sacrifices. It is curious to see references to human sacrifice in later times, most Biblical scholars believe that the incident with Isaac represents a change from a time of human sacrifice to something better (I had assumed that Abraham had actually failed God's test, but, since he was loyal he was forgiven).

Also: I checked, and DC is right that there were sects of Gnostic Christians who believed that Yaweh was a dragon.

So: maybe the ancient Israelites did incorporate older symbols into their monotheist system; the Egyptians did this by representing the Atun as the sun, and the Persians did it by representing the creator as a pagan chief-diety (and used the sun reference as well). Regardless, modern Jews, Christians, and Moslems worship the Creator, not the creations. Still, the ancient symbols and rites give some interesting clues as to how current monotheist practices acme to be.


#20    northwest

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 01:14 AM

draconic

You know, this thread had lit my imagination for the rest of the day after I read it, and I had to investigate
about offerings, because I was a little rusty on that, and I've found something very interesting:

Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: "Add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices, and eat the flesh. For in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to your fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. But this command I gave them: 'Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people. And walk in all the way that I command you, that it may be well with you.'  But they did not obey or incline their ear, but walked in their own counsels and the stubbornness of their evil hearts, and went backward and not forward.

I have actually read most translations of this part, and in most of them the meaning is the same

god says to take their burned offerings and eat them themselves, because he didn't speak to their ancestors and command them to have sacrifices

Now, a lot of scholars are interpreting this part as : "sacrifices are not enough unless you obey the lord", but
it is clearly stated that he didn't tell them that

except for one translation, which translated this as:
not only did I command them regarding sacrifices etc....

and that last part "went backwards" has a ring to it. It could imply that they went back to their pagan ways,
and there the sacrifices came from.

Here is another part, regarding human sacrifices:

"And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind."


Now it is interesting how every time God speaks to Jews he is mad how they are sinful because they worship idols and do all kinds of terrible things which we rarely heard about.
It is possible that the practices which modern understanding of scriptures understands as part of Jewish religion to YHWH,
is actually the idolatry that God is speaking about through prophets.

My point being, someone ate these sacrifices, and here YHWH tells he didn't command it, so
if there was a dragon involved, it was perhaps a part of their "wrong" worships.

You know, I think a lot has been going on back then, and they saw a lot of strange stuff, and quite frankly couldn't keep up with what came from their god YHWH, and what came from other gods, or dragons or whatever they saw.

It is also mentioned that they brought sacrifices to Baal, perhaps he ate them, and they thought it was Yahweh



Edited by northwest, 20 September 2007 - 01:16 AM.

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#21    draconic chronicler

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 01:51 AM

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draconic

You know, this thread had lit my imagination for the rest of the day after I read it, and I had to investigate
about offerings, because I was a little rusty on that, and I've found something very interesting:

Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: "Add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices, and eat the flesh. For in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to your fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. But this command I gave them: 'Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people. And walk in all the way that I command you, that it may be well with you.'  But they did not obey or incline their ear, but walked in their own counsels and the stubbornness of their evil hearts, and went backward and not forward.

I have actually read most translations of this part, and in most of them the meaning is the same

god says to take their burned offerings and eat them themselves, because he didn't speak to their ancestors and command them to have sacrifices

Now, a lot of scholars are interpreting this part as : "sacrifices are not enough unless you obey the lord", but
it is clearly stated that he didn't tell them that

except for one translation, which translated this as:
not only did I command them regarding sacrifices etc....

and that last part "went backwards" has a ring to it. It could imply that they went back to their pagan ways,
and there the sacrifices came from.

Here is another part, regarding human sacrifices:

"And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind."
Now it is interesting how every time God speaks to Jews he is mad how they are sinful because they worship idols and do all kinds of terrible things which we rarely heard about.
It is possible that the practices which modern understanding of scriptures understands as part of Jewish religion to YHWH,
is actually the idolatry that God is speaking about through prophets.

My point being, someone ate these sacrifices, and here YHWH tells he didn't command it, so
if there was a dragon involved, it was perhaps a part of their "wrong" worships.

You know, I think a lot has been going on back then, and they saw a lot of strange stuff, and quite frankly couldn't keep up with what came from their god YHWH, and what came from other gods, or dragons or whatever they saw.

It is also mentioned that they brought sacrifices to Baal, perhaps he ate them, and they thought it was Yahweh


Burnt offering is not the best description of these offering for they  were expertly roasted to produce a delicious aroma to attract Yahweh -- not the stench of a crematorium. And the Jews boasted Yahweh actually consumed the offering. They believed only the pagans had to burn the offering to ash because their gods were false.  Although in the early Old Testament the foreign gods were real as well, but Yahweh was believed to be the best and most powerful god.  Yahweh was one of 70 "sons" divided among the different human tribes.  I believe these were all "dragons" becasue we have such similar creatures all aorund the world dispensing wisdom to mankind and given sacrifices in return.

Though not commonly publicised, besides the traditional lambs and calves, Yahweh is given captive enemy virgins, and in Genesis He demands the first born son of every Hebrew family, as well as first born animals, and liqour. Dragons the world over always ask for liquour. One time Yahweh consort Ishtar, also originally called a "great and terrible dragon" in her Hymns, is described craving beer.

Some people claim The first born sons that are to be offered to Yahweh only mean to be priests or servants, but there is nothing else in the scripture to support this notion. On the contrary, they are mentioned in the same sentence as other "consumables" such as fruit and liquor.

Genesis 22:29 Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me.

Also the next verse confirms these things are to be offered as Yahweh's food.

22:30 Likewise shalt thou do with thine oxen, and with thy sheep: seven days it shall be with his dam; on the eighth day thou shalt give it to me.

There can be no doubt this meant sacrifices and not servitude for God says LIKEWISE animals would be given to him, and we know these were not intended to be servants, but sacrifices.

Yahweh consumes two priests who were Aaron's sons becasue they didn't cook the sacrifice properly, so he ate them instead. It may be that they forgot to put salt on the fatted calf. This is possible, becasue after this event, the bible is very specific that all of Yahweh meat offerings must be salted.

Of course these sacrifices were orignally meant to literally "feed" the God. Why else would there be instructions how to specifically season the meat? And there are many passages in the Bible and other ancient literatrue of the Gods being attracted to the offering by the delicious smells.

Yahweh cuts the Israelites some slack later on during the exodus and allows His people to ransom their children out of being sacrificed/eaten. The meatier/heavier the intended victim, the more money it costs to buy him back from Yahweh, again clearly indicating their value as real "food".  Also to our modern minds, to a God, what would be the point of sacrifices if the God did not actually eat the sacrifices?  And if God was merely a spirit there would be no point of sacrifices at all, yet virtually every culture that DID have dragon gods also gave them sacrifices of some sort.

Now later, when the dragons were no longer allowed to interfere in hman affairs, the sacrifices lef to them became symbolic, but there seems to be a literal origin to this practice, and these dragons seem to be very physical creatures.  Yahweh blocks the Jordan river with his huge physical body, in Psalms he shelters people with WINGS, He spews fire from his mouth, and smoke from his nostrils, and he "eats".  But this is not God, the original Biblical God is El, the creator, who generally is not given sacrifices of real food becasue he is a spirit creature that seems to have created or modified the dragon assistannts recorded all over the world.  

Few other dragon gods seem to be as generous as Yahweh in these matters, but it may be that with so many animals available from his subjects, he preferred more gold over eating their children. This love of treasure is another universal trait of dragons. After all the midainites were slaughtered, Yahweh asked for all of the gold taken off their bodies to make the Israelites attone for the slaugher, and he did get all of those virgins too.The scriptures are very clear that Yahweh demanded the first born sons of all the Hebrews, and one time he was given no less than 32 virgins. But fortunately, Yahweh likes treasure too , so for the right price you could by your son back. Its all in the Bible.


#22    northwest

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 02:06 AM

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Now later, when the dragons were no longer allowed to interfere in hman affairs, the sacrifices lef to them became symbolic, but there seems to be a literal origin to this practice, and these dragons seem to be very physical creatures.  Yahweh blocks the Jordan river with his huge physical body, in Psalms he shelters people with WINGS, He spews fire from his mouth, and smoke from his nostrils, and he "eats".  But this is not God, the original Biblical God is El, the creator, who generally is not given sacrifices of real food becasue he is a spirit creature that seems to have created or modified the dragon assistannts recorded all over the world.  
ure too , so for the right price you could by your son back. Its all in the Bible.


I don't have doubt that there was such a creature involved, but I would rather say that this dragon was put to be a physical presence and protection in the name of the
god they had a pact with. Because for example, if you look at Ezekiel, he clearly sees something higher than a dragon when he sees the Lord.
Now YHWH, might have been the name for just the dragon, not the god behind him.
But If you are implying that a dragon was in all of their contacts, like mount Sinai, and visions to prophets (which clearly show thrones, even flying saucers if you will and projections of all kinds of wierd images) , then I can't agree, because I think Jews were actually in contact with a human-god, or angel if you will, which indeed did send Jesus later. I am convinced from your evidence here that there was a dragon involved, but I don't think this creature was the actual deity that had a pact with Jews.


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#23    northwest

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 02:14 AM

I also have to point (to make sense of my point), that while I do think everything in Jewish scriptures is based on true events, I don't think there is perfect continuity and order of things as they were written down.
In other words, I think, whatever strange they might saw they would attribute to their god, because, even though you can read the Bible in one day, the times between these events were huge, and people get confused, as much as we are confused about Jesus.
This isn't one long religion, it is pieces of religion spread by centuries and even thousands of years.
We can not expect them to have a perfect theological continuity, anymore than we can expect modern church to have a proper and clear understanding of gospels.

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#24    draconic chronicler

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 11:16 AM

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I don't have doubt that there was such a creature involved, but I would rather say that this dragon was put to be a physical presence and protection in the name of the
god they had a pact with. Because for example, if you look at Ezekiel, he clearly sees something higher than a dragon when he sees the Lord.
Now YHWH, might have been the name for just the dragon, not the god behind him.
But If you are implying that a dragon was in all of their contacts, like mount Sinai, and visions to prophets (which clearly show thrones, even flying saucers if you will and projections of all kinds of wierd images) , then I can't agree, because I think Jews were actually in contact with a human-god, or angel if you will, which indeed did send Jesus later. I am convinced from your evidence here that there was a dragon involved, but I don't think this creature was the actual deity that had a pact with Jews.


It is fully documented that the Hebrews originally acknowledge there was indeed a "god behind the dragon" as you say.  The Bible states Yahweh was the greatest of the "Sons of God", and was the "Son" who picked the Hebrew people, just as they believed Ba'al Haddad was another son of the same Creator who picked the Cannanites.

But later on, the Jews would "forget" these things and say that all of the other "Sons of God" in the Bible are "false" and they would meld the dragons Yahweh into El the non-dragon, supernatural creator, and make them the same God.  This is why there are two different creation stoires in Genesis, Elohim's Creation that reflects evolution and Yahweh's more fanciful creation in which Adam is the first thing created on the Earth, and animals later, "to keep him company".


#25    Archosaur

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 09:39 PM

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It is fully documented that the Hebrews originally acknowledge there was indeed a "god behind the dragon" as you say.  The Bible states Yahweh was the greatest of the "Sons of God", and was the "Son" who picked the Hebrew people, just as they believed Ba'al Haddad was another son of the same Creator who picked the Cannanites.

But later on, the Jews would "forget" these things and say that all of the other "Sons of God" in the Bible are "false" and they would meld the dragons Yahweh into El the non-dragon, supernatural creator, and make them the same God.  This is why there are two different creation stoires in Genesis, Elohim's Creation that reflects evolution and Yahweh's more fanciful creation in which Adam is the first thing created on the Earth, and animals later, "to keep him company".


DC, have you considered how the wider relegious community would react if people began taking this idea more seriously? I somehow don't imagine that it will be taught in Sunday School.




#26    Moondoggy

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 10:36 PM

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There are many scholarly articles that convincingly argue that orignally El and Yahweh are different Entities.  This is why there are two completely different creation stories in Genesis, the original, evolution friendly version credited to El and the fairy tale version to Yahweh.  And archaeology PROVES  That the original Storm dragon Yaw of Cannanite mythology was the son of El, exactly as it is stated in Psalms, and implied in Deuteronomy.
And BOTH Storm Dragon Yaw, and Yahweh the Storm God acknowledge Ba'al Hadad as their sworn enemy.  WAKE UP Moondog, they are the same diety.  That why the Bible say Yahweh breathes fire, has wings, creates floods, blocks rivers with his body, eats virgins, and hordes gold.  As well as being jealous, vindictive, cruel, and generally ungodlike.  But don't blame him, he's a dragon who works for El, the creator, just like Quin Ling, Queztalcoatl, Kuklakan, etc.  100 million years ago it was the smartest creature to be a heavenly assistant.
We've gone over this time and time again Moondoggy.  NOBODY supports your view.  The Jewish Encyclopeadia isn't the only source that states the Seraphim are reptilian creatures, just about EVERY Encyclopedia states this except Christian sources with an "agenda".  And we have proof from ancient scriptures translated from Hebrew to Greek, translated by the ancient Jewish priests and Rabbis that translated the Seraphim to DRAKONS.  This is an undeniable fact.  And there are BOTH ancient Jewish and Christian scriptures that state in black and white that Drakons reside in Heaven.  By the middle ages even the Jews became ignorant of much of their ancient knowledge that had to be rediscovered through archaology.  And as I explained before, ancient Jewish religious laws prescribed exactly how HOLY DRAKONS must be depicted, and these HOLY DRAKONS decorate the MOST HOLY Jewish religious artifact after the Ark of the covenant, the seven branched Menorah.  

You are living in total denial guy.  The highest heavenly creatures in Judao Christian Theology are Drakons, including Yahweh.

And yes, Yahweh's Personal Idol which the Hebrews had to adore or be killed by dragons (fiery flying serpents) is called the NehashaTAN.  Nehash - Serpent, TAN= Tannyn - DRAGON.  Serpent Dragon, the same Title give to the Sumerian Storm Dragon Enlil who flooded the Earth, and who was renamed Yaw by the Cannanites, and who would become Yahweh.

Below is an article by a Christian who is also an expert in  Hebrew who supports the fact the Seraphim are flying reptiles, EXACTLY as the Jewish Scholars who wrote the Jewish Encyclopedia  say.  

Give it up Moondog.  The thing that supports your idea of the swan winged, Pagan humanoid "cartoon angel" Seraphim, are ignorant people of the middle ages that lost their knowledge in the dark ages, and of course, your Christian Sunday School Coloring books.  All of the archaeology, and ancient scriptures, and Christian and Jewish art ALL SUPPORT the Draconic Seraphim.  It is such common knowledge among real Jews in Israel that the AH 64 Helicopter is called the Seraph, after the Biblical Fiery flying serpent.    You lose.

Serpentine / Reptilian Divine Beings in the
Hebrew Bible: A Preliminary Investigation
Michael S. Heiser
Introduction
The focus of this brief overview into the matter of serpentine /
reptilian beings in the Hebrew Bible arises from a study of the biblical
Mypr#o (seraphim). Traditionally, the word seraphim has been understood to
derive from the Hebrew verb Pr#o (saraph; “to burn” – hence, seraphim
would mean “burning ones” or “fiery ones”). While this is certainly
possible, there is another very plausible (and I would say more likely)
possibility that either eliminates seraph as the root, or co-exists and overlaps
with it (I think the latter). This alternative root would mean there are clear,
unmistakable references to serpentine / reptilian beings in the Hebrew text
of the Old Testament.
Naturally, for readers of The Façade (or inquirers on my website), this
would dovetail with what I refer to as the “Watcher paradigm” – that the
Watchers, reptilian beings described in religious texts of great antiquity (cf.
the Dead Sea fragment 4QAmram), are the “root origin” of the worldwide
serpent mythologies that have serpentine gods / flying serpentine beings
as those divine beings which bestowed high technology to mankind and
which fathered the first line of god-(human) kings.
The Data to Consider
It is plain from the contents of the Hebrew Bible that a saraph is a
serpent. The word (as a singular or plural noun) occurs seven times.
During the desert wanderings of the Israelites under the leadership of
Moses, God judges the people (Numbers 21:6) by sending
~ypir'F.h; ~yvix'N>h; (hannechashim hasseraphim; “seraph serpents”) to bite them.
The translation “seraph serpents” is more accurate than “fiery serpents”
(KJV) as we shall see. When the people prayed (Numbers 21:7) that the
“serpents” (there, nachash) be taken away, Moses intercedes for the people.
God then instructs Moses to make a saraph (Pr#o) and to put it on a pole, so
that all who would look at it would be healed from the bites (Numbers

21:8). Moses responds (Numbers 21:9) by building a tv,xon> vx;n> (nechash
nechosheth). Note that in this narrative, the Hebrew words nachash and
saraph are used interchangeably. This points to the fact that a saraph is not a
“fiery thing” but simply a serpent. As further proof of this
interchangeability, in Deuteronomy 8:15 Yahweh is praised twice for
bringing Israel through the desert with its notorious nachash saraph.
With this interchange as backdrop, the prophet Isaiah’s use of saraph
/ seraphim sets up the issue of reptilian / serpentine divine beings. In Isa.
14: 29 and 30:6, Isaiah mentions the @peA[m. @r'f' (saraph me(opheph; literally,
“flying serpent”). More on this below. The famous throne room vision of
Isaiah in chapter 6 of his book notes that in the throne room of Yahweh
there were seraphim –serpentine beings. These beings also had wings and
could fly, and had human features as well (hands, face, feet):
Isa 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne,
high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. 2 Above it stood the seraphim:
each one had six wings; with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his
feet, and with two he did fly. 3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy,
holy, [is] the Lord of hosts: the whole earth [is] full of his glory. 4 And the posts of the
door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. 5
Then said I, Woe [is] me! for I am undone; because I [am] a man of unclean lips, and
I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the
Lord of hosts. Then flew one of the seraphim unto me, having a live coal in his
hand, [which] he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: 7 And he laid [it] upon
my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and your iniquity is taken away,
and thy sin purged. 8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send,
and who will go for us? Then said I, Here [am] I; send me.
In putting these features together, let’s return first to Isaiah 30:6. In that
text, the flying serpents come from the Negev, that desert area between
Palestine and Egypt. These were either real animals, or the term denoted
some type of spiritual (cosmic) enemy. The latter seems preferable, since
throughout the ancient world certain deities were described in such terms
(flying serpents), and there is no such flying animal.1 The term could also
be used of human enemies, as is implied by the other reference to flying
serpents above, Isaiah 14:29:
1 Some speculate that Isaiah is referencing a pterodactyl-like animal, which is both unlikely and
unnecessary given the surrounding religions.

Isa 14:29 Rejoice not, O Philistia, because the rod of him that smote you is broken:
for out of the serpent's (nachash) root shall come forth an asp, and his fruit shall
be a flying serpent (saraph me(opheph).
%Kem; jb,ve rB;v.nI yKi %LeKu tv,l,p. yxim.f.Ti-la; WTT Isa 14:29
`@peA[m. @r'f' Ayr.piW [p;c, aceyE vx'n" vr,Vomi-yKi
This passage is noteworthy on several levels. Three times the enemy of
Israel, the “chosen seed” (cf. Genesis 3:15ff.) is described in serpentine
terms. The “root” or “seed” (offspring, in Hebrew idiom) is described as
the root of the nachash. Readers of The Façade will instantly recognize this
being as the one in the garden of Eden who seduced Adam and Eve. In The
Façade, I argue that the “serpent” (Hebrew, nachash) in the Eden story of
Genesis 3 was not a snake – it was a divine being, a rebel of the divine
council, which met in Eden, the garden of God.2 God curses all parties
concerned at the Fall in Genesis 3. One of the curses involves the “seed” of
the nachash being bitterly opposed (a perpetual enemy) of the “seed” of the
woman (Eve). The seed of the woman is obviously humanity (and
ultimately, the Messiah; cf. Gal. 3:16). Who are the seed of the nachash?
They are both the original enemies of the divinely chosen seed of the godly
(Noah), produced by fallen divine beings in Genesis 6:1-4. These offspring
are called the nephilim (giants) and gibborim (mighty warriors). The
nephilim and / or gibborim produce succeeding generations of enemies of
God’s chosen seed (Israel). It is no mistake that Moses and Joshua and
their armies continually run into these descendants (like the Anakim; cf.
Deuteronomy 3 and Numbers 13). Later enemies, like the Philistines
spoken of in Isaiah 14:29 above, are logically referred to as the “seed of the
nachash” (recall Goliath the giant was a Philistine, and a descendant of one
the nephilim lines).
Curiously, though, they are also called “flying serpents”. What about that?
2 See Ezekiel 28:10ff. Note the PDF file available on my website bookstore that details
these terms as standard descriptions in ancient Canaan for the divine council’s meeting
place.

In general (preliminary) terms, it seems to me that “flying seraph” would be
a better translation of Isaiah 14:29 –
his fruit shall be a flying seraph (saraph me(opheph).
The meaning behind this, as I see it, is that Israel’s enemies would be
descendants of the reptilian / serpentine beings who seduced human
women in Genesis 6. These beings are called Watchers in the book of 1
Enoch, and are described as reptilian in the Dead Sea fragment, 4QAmram.
It is clear from several passages in 1 Enoch that the writer there considered
the seraphim to be serpentine beings (cf. 1 Enoch 20:7, 71:7; 61:10 – a
description of the cherubim and the serpentine beings who guard God’s
throne –cf. Isaiah 6).
Seraphim, then, are reptilian / serpentine beings – they are the Watchers
(the “watchful ones” who diligently guard God’s throne, which is carried
[cf. Ezekiel 1, 10] by the cherubim, who may also serve as guardians).3
There are “good” serpentine beings (seraphim) who guard God’s throne (so
Isaiah 6’s seraphim), and there are fallen, wicked serpentine beings
(seraphim) who rebelled against the Most High at various times, and who
became the pagan gods of the other nations. Interestingly, 4QAmram adds
a feature to the serpentine Watcher that stands opposed to the good
heavenly watchers: the evil Watchers of 4QAmram are also described as
“dark”. This stands in opposition to the luminous or “brassy” appearance
of good heavenly seraphim.
A Brief note on the Root of Seraphim
Above I noted that there was an alternative root possibility that
dovetails more readily with the serpentine context of seraphim. Rather than
the traditional root of saraph (“to burn”), the root of seraphim may come
from the Egyptian srf (“serpent”). Isaiah especially is known for its
Egyptian flavor in parts, and there are numerous texts and artworks in
3 This conclusion is very tentative, and reflects my suspicion that the reason that descriptions of seraphim,
cherubim, and Watchers (in Daniel) as “human like beings clothed in white linen” have overlapping
features (hands, feet, human face, wings) is that they are names for the same entities (cf. not all cherubim
have four faces, e.g.). This would make Satan an original Watcher – at one time a guardian of the divine
throne. I am still thinking about all this, though, and my views may change.

Egypt that describe and depict serpents. Many of them have the srf as
having wings or flying. Others combine this description with fire (and so
this may give rise to a dual wordplay in the Hebrew Bible – where
seraphim refers to a luminous serpentine divine being). This seems most
consistent.
For further reference (texts and iconography):
Karen Joines, Serpent Symbolism in the Old Testament: A Linguistic,
Archaeological, and Literary Study (Haddonfield House, New Jersey, 1974)
“Serpent” in Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible (Brill, 1999)

It is not my view DC. It is the view of classical Judaism. I am just citing what is there. Any student of Judaism would say the same regarding Yahweh. To say that no one agrees with what I have posted is nonsense. Please feel free to read the works of Gamaliel and Maimonodes upon which all Judaic theology hinges upon to this day.


#27    Moondoggy

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 10:45 PM

News Flash to serious biblical students: There are over 100 usages of this word "SARAPH" in the OT. Please I invite you all to look them up providing you can use a Hebrew concordance. All the usages will reveal the true meaning of this word. This is the true test for grammatical accuracy. You will see that it just means "fiery", or "burning" or to "burn". Please do not take my word for it and check it out if you want to see that I am not the smoke blowing "dragon" here, but what I have posted is accurate.


#28    libra II

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 10:48 PM

Quote

News Flash to serious biblical students: There are over 100 usages of this word "SARAPH" in the OT. Please I invite you all to look them up providing you can use a Hebrew concordance. All the usages will reveal the true meaning of this word. This is the true test for grammatical accuracy. You will see that it just means "fiery", or "burning" or to "burn". Please do not take my word for it and check it out if you want to see that I am not the smoke blowing "dragon" here, but what I have posted is accurate.



No, no. We believe ya. Man, you've saved the world for us, Moondoggy


#29    libra II

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 10:54 PM

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No, no. We believe ya. Man, you've saved the world for us, Moondoggy



Another News Flash:

It's Christmas on December the 25th


#30    draconic chronicler

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 11:20 PM

Quote

News Flash to serious biblical students: There are over 100 usages of this word "SARAPH" in the OT. Please I invite you all to look them up providing you can use a Hebrew concordance. All the usages will reveal the true meaning of this word. This is the true test for grammatical accuracy. You will see that it just means "fiery", or "burning" or to "burn". Please do not take my word for it and check it out if you want to see that I am not the smoke blowing "dragon" here, but what I have posted is accurate.


Dr. Heiser is a Christian, and a Hebrew scholar, and I dare say he knows far more about the language than you, and he states from the original source material that the Seraphim of the Bible are definately winged reptilian entities.  And the ancient Jews translated the word Seraphim to Drakons.  And the ancient Christians depicted them as winged serpents or dragons.  And the ancient Jews decorated the holiest temple furniture with "Holy" Drakons, and the scholars of the esteemed Jewish Encyclopedia state they were originally winged reptiles, and even today in Israel, this is such common knowledge that the AH64 attack helicopter is nicknamed the Seraph, complete with a seraph dragon painted on its nose.  Oh, and the ancient Egyptian had a winged serpent-dragon called a Seraph as well.  The evidence is overwhelming Moondoggy.  Your silly, swan winged, harp strumming, "cartoon" seraphim angels out of your Sunday School coloring books are in reality  the winged dragons believed in by virtually every human culture since the dawn of civilization.  And guess what, many of the greatest men of the past admit to the existence of dragons, but I don't recall any eyewitness sighting os swan-winged cartoon angels.

There is a very good reason the word seraph ALSO means burning, or fiery.  It is becasue this is what dragons "do".  They burn things with their fiery breath.  And Yahweh's fiery breath and smoldering nostrils are described in the Bible.





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