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does god exist


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#46    bathory

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Posted 10 January 2004 - 02:46 AM

QUOTE
Bathory , it is known we need faith in god being always their , but in evolution what is needed for "Perhaps" in any theory ? Faith , thats what crosswarrior ws saying , that you do require a bit of faith in evolution in well . Their are fossil records , bits and peices of evidence here and their , so there is an amount of proof in evolution , but what you just said "perhaps it was always there?" proofs crosswarriors point .


well aside from the creation of the universe not really being part of the 'theory of evolution'. the difference is, scientists are coming from a position of evidence and testing to support their theories, while creationists are simply coming from a position with absolutely no evidence to support their ideas. Current observational evidence seems to indicate that the universe started without cause, as opposed to, the universe was created by a god/gods because we say so...
now it seems you missed the point of my 'perhaps' line, it was more to indicate we aren't too sure, and that theories regarding such things are based on actual evidence and tested until the point that they either proven false or become established theories, only to be replaced by newer theories that improve on the original idea.


#47    Xenojjin

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Posted 10 January 2004 - 03:10 AM

your are not to sure and never will be sure , its impossible to scientifically disprove the existance of a god . You need plenty faith for evolution as you must assume that the universe itself existed in the first place . Its much like a box of legos , assumming they are already their you can pour them on the floor . you can then come back in 100000000 years to see whats happened , a robot has formed from the legos . Did someone build it ? Or did earthquakes cause the legos to bounce around over time to form this robot ? You can never really know for sure what happened  and both inferances require faith . Take your pick just dont assume you are some kind of genius with the most logical mind in the world once you have . since when it comes to the formation of the universe as we know it , you cant know what the truth is 100% .

I think you are overestimating evolution assuming it is proven beyond a doubt that it is how the universe formed . You need to come to realize it only explains a possible way the universe was formed , it is not a fact . Evolution is a theory and always will be . theories can be proven wrong .  

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#48    Fluffybunny

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Posted 10 January 2004 - 04:17 AM

If you were to actually read the theory of evolution by Charles Darwin you would find that it says nothing about the formation of the universe, why people think that evolution and the creation of the universe have anything to do with each other is beyond me.

Darwin never attempted to explain how the universe came about, he was dealing with the progression of biological life, selective breeding, and other matters dealing with how we view the advancement of living creatures over millions of years.

I wish folks would read about darwin before they tried to shoot down his theories.

The big bang theory was first proposed by Belgian priest Georges Lemaître in 1927, he had nothing to do with evolution, just the theory of how the universe could have started. He also didn't say that god didn't have anything to do with the theory, it was simply his evaluation of the information he had gathered of our universe.

I have taken the time to study the bible, torah, quran, and the teaching of buddha, I wish some of the christian folks around here would bother to do the slightest bit of studying of the scientific theories they are trying to shoot down.

Too many people on both sides of the spectrum have fallen into this mentality that a full one half of the country are the enemy for having different beliefs...in a country based on freedom of expression. It is this infighting that allows the focus to be taken away from "we the people" being able to watch, and have control over government corruption and ineptitude that is running rampant in our leadership.

People should be working towards fixing problems, not creating them.

#49    Xenojjin

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Posted 10 January 2004 - 04:53 AM

I already know his theories dont try to explain the universe . I was trying to explain to him both beliefs need faith . And in order for the big bang theory to work it has to go in hand with evolution even if its not part of the theory they definatly support each other .  

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#50    Fluffybunny

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Posted 10 January 2004 - 05:17 AM

QUOTE (Xenojjin @ Jan 9 2004, 07:53 PM)
in order for the big bang theory to work it has to go in hand with evolution even if its not part of the theory they definatly support each other .

How do you come to the conclusion that the two theories go hand in hand?

One explaines how the universe may have started, the other explains the progression of living creatures over millions of years. They are two seperate matters.



Too many people on both sides of the spectrum have fallen into this mentality that a full one half of the country are the enemy for having different beliefs...in a country based on freedom of expression. It is this infighting that allows the focus to be taken away from "we the people" being able to watch, and have control over government corruption and ineptitude that is running rampant in our leadership.

People should be working towards fixing problems, not creating them.

#51    bathory

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Posted 10 January 2004 - 06:28 AM

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its impossible to scientifically disprove the existance of a god .


well contradictory properties is an ideal method of disproving somethings existence. But yes, it would be scientifically impossible to prove a negative...just like me asking you to prove that there are no quaghoppers. Burden of proof rest firmly on the shoulders of those making the positive claim, and guess what...ZERO PROOF:)

QUOTE
You need plenty faith for evolution as you must assume that the universe itself existed in the first place .


two completely different theories

QUOTE
Evolution is a theory and always will be . theories can be proven wrong .


its so obvious you have no idea:)
do you even understand the concept of a scientific theory?
so what if theories can be proven wrong? does that suddenly mean it is wrong?

QUOTE
I was trying to explain to him both beliefs need faith .


no, one relies on evidence
the other relies on unsubstantiated claims
i don't think i have to tell you which one is which


#52    doink

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Posted 10 January 2004 - 06:44 AM

Since the topic has once again changed from "Does God exist?" to "Creation vs. Evolution, on and on to the Big Bang" I have to say that no, evolution is in it's own field. The Big Bang is the best option or idea available right now to the science communtiy. Of course their are newer discoveries every day into how our universe works, but this stuff is based on astronomy studies. Evolution is the process of a species to better itself given the change in environment, or to better adapt to it's environment. As I'm not overly interested in the Big Bang, I don't know all the particulars. But since I am interested in human evolution, I do know that there are a lot of skeletons of apes that walked on two legs, then later used crude stone tools, then later were replaced by skeletons of a half human half ape man, that used fire, hunted with sharpened sticks, better stone tools. Later ( or should I say further up to the surface where the archeologists were digging) are found tthe bones of Neanderthals and Cromagnons, which were almost indistinguishable from humans today (Cro-mags). They had advanced tools, used fire etc. The tools were found with all these skeletons, proof of fire, all the things that we know of them are based on physical evidence. We find more in between stages every day. It doesn't take a huge leap of faith to see the connection. For a better view, and not one so personal, look at elephants. They've changed dramatically over time.

I'd have to find the link but I saw it in a National Geographic I think how we are able to see into smaller and smaller levels through the most advanced microscopes. The more scientists are able to see the intricate patterns that bind us together the more the idea grows within them that there really is some kind of living force behind it all. The pope even said that evolution is very possible. I know you guys like to fight amongst your denominations but it becomes apparent that every one's perceptions are evolving to the point that they see very little difference between what we all are barely starting to comprehend.


#53    Xenojjin

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Posted 10 January 2004 - 06:51 AM

*Bathory has entered the realm*

Bathory , read fluffbunnies posts on this subject and try to figure out why this makes you hypocritical .

I see the theories as going hand in hand as they both are made to explain how things came to be without god in the picture . Think of the big bang as birth of the universe and evolution growing up . Thats how I see the similarity .




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#54    bathory

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Posted 10 January 2004 - 07:03 AM

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I see the theories as going hand in hand as they both are made to explain how things came to be without god in the picture . Think of the big bang as birth of the universe and evolution growing up . Thats how I see the similarity .


if you want over simplify things, then sure they are similar...
but in reality there is a huge difference between the beginning of time and existence and the development of life. You can argue as much as you want, evolution has been proven, and even if it can be proven wrong (hypothetically) there is no evidence to support creationism, claiming otherwise would be known as a non-sequitor.

i don't see any hypocrisy on my part, but hey, point it out if you must:)


#55    Fluffybunny

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Posted 10 January 2004 - 07:10 AM

QUOTE (Xenojjin @ Jan 9 2004, 09:51 PM)
I see the theories as going hand in hand as they both are made to explain how things came to be without god in the picture . Think of the big bang as birth of the universe and evolution growing up . Thats how I see the similarity .

I understand what you are saying, I can see how you would come to that conclusion.

The intersting thing about both of those theories is that the didn't try to prove or disprove the existance of god at all.

If you take the time to read about the theories, you will find that they weren't trying to explain away god, just trying to explain the processes that they viewed around them, be it biological or cosmological.

I know that some athiest point to the two theories as "proof" that god doesn't exist, but that isn't the case at all. Folks that are leaning on the two theories to disprove god, haven't taken the time to actually read them.



Too many people on both sides of the spectrum have fallen into this mentality that a full one half of the country are the enemy for having different beliefs...in a country based on freedom of expression. It is this infighting that allows the focus to be taken away from "we the people" being able to watch, and have control over government corruption and ineptitude that is running rampant in our leadership.

People should be working towards fixing problems, not creating them.

#56    bathory

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Posted 10 January 2004 - 07:24 AM

evolution disproves creationism

QUOTE
you give far to much credit to your theist brethren.
trying to disprove evolution is like trying to disprove the moon landings:)


my original point:
evolution is fact




#57    Xenojjin

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Posted 10 January 2004 - 07:30 AM

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I know that some athiest point to the two theories as "proof" that god doesn't exist, but that isn't the case at all. Folks that are leaning on the two theories to disprove god, haven't taken the time to actually read them


woot , sounds like more of a blow to other atheists then the non atheists . Whos side are you taking anyway ? Oh well this ones already entering the realm of religion vs science which cant go anywhere ... I tried to make a joke out of it but noooooo.....

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#58    bathory

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Posted 10 January 2004 - 07:33 AM

figures


#59    crosswarrior

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Posted 10 January 2004 - 07:49 AM

   Bathory you have said that Evolution is fact, and you seem to imply that even if it could be proven wrong that it would not matter; and that faith has nothing to do withthe matter. You seem to say that we must disprove Evolution in order for there to be a God. All the while knowing that it is impossible to completely disprove Evolution or Creationism. No one was there who is alive today, there are no records that have been wrote by witnesses to the event of Creation, be it by evolutionary means or by Divine Creation. I can no more prove that Evolution is false, than you can prove that God does not exist.
   Or maybe you can. I am sure that you alone are endowed with all the knowledge of the Universe, and thus are able to prove once and for all that God is Fake. So give us a sample of your almighty wisdom and lay this matter to rest forever. thumbsup.gif  

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#60    Novo

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Posted 10 January 2004 - 07:52 AM

QUOTE (Tess @ Jan 10 2004, 01:01 AM)
I have some questions and thought this would be the right thread to ask............
We were made in God's image?So does that mean God looks like an everyday,normal human?Where did people go when they died BEFORE religions were started?Why do all the religions seem to worship someone different?Like some worship the Virgin Mary,others Jesus,etc.I thought God and Jesus were not the same person,so why do some religions only worship Jesus?How do you know which religion is right and which is wrong?Did God create man AFTER all the other types of man were already here,or was it neanderthal and the other pre-historic men that he created? dontgetit.gif

We were made in his image... that means we look SIMILIAR to him he probably has some diffrences... and I believe when we die we turn into pure energy so we can really choose what we look like anyway... maybe gods humanoid? thats all I mean... And you will know wich one is right from experience... God bless you ya know! At least you asking some questions and not just making a quick deduction without even looking beyond science and just sitting and thinking about the world around you.... Science is as much religion as Christianity...

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