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does god exist


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#61    bathory

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Posted 10 January 2004 - 07:59 AM

QUOTE
Bathory you have said that Evolution is fact, and you seem to imply that even if it could be proven wrong that it would not matter; and that faith has nothing to do withthe matter.


yes...your point?

QUOTE
You seem to say that we must disprove Evolution in order for there to be a God.


i never said that, nor implied that
the closest i would have gotten is saying that evolution is fact, creationism isn't.

QUOTE
All the while knowing that it is impossible to completely disprove Evolution or Creationism.


who said it was impossible to do either?
perhaps you could offer some proofs of Creationism? oh wait there isn't any.


QUOTE
No one was there who is alive today, there are no records that have been wrote by witnesses to the event of Creation, be it by evolutionary means or by Divine Creation. I can no more prove that Evolution is false, than you can prove that God does not exist.


good for you, its a shame that it isn't the issue.

QUOTE
Or maybe you can. I am sure that you alone are endowed with all the knowledge of the Universe, and thus are able to prove once and for all that God is Fake. So give us a sample of your almighty wisdom and lay this matter to rest
forever.


sigh, i'll say it once more, its impossible to prove a negative assertion..
perhaps you should try to offer evidence in regards to your beliefs instead of asking me to disprove them.
run along now

QUOTE
Science is as much religion as Christianity...


there is a HUGE difference between Christianity and Science, science is based on testable facts and observations, christianity is based on heresay and superstition. Its like saying that The Lord of the Rings is as much of a historical account as a non-fiction book about World War 2.



#62    Novo

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Posted 10 January 2004 - 08:14 AM

I Am Thirteen Heres My Proof Of My Faith  (removed)
  • Had Countless obes
  • Spoken in Tongues (An Amazing Experience)
  • Been Filled With The Holy Spirit
  • Had Foresight
  • And I believe my mother may have contacted the desceased in her dreams... I never remember mine
  • I have also Entered the astral
  • Some Speculate I Am A Prophet (LOL I Doubt God Would Need Some Kid)
  • Gotten pissed for no apparent reason (Nows a good Example)
There is your proof of creation
Experience Even One Of They First Two and you will without doubt believe in God...


Tut tut. That's not a very Christian thing to say, S&A.

Edited by Aslan, 10 January 2004 - 10:54 AM.

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- Martin luthur King Jr., activist

#63    bathory

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Posted 10 January 2004 - 08:18 AM

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There is your proof of creation


thats not proof of creation
thats anecdotal evidence of the supernatural (if that, mental instability could also explain it)

what makes you assume that its a god/s? hell what makes you assume its YOUR god?

Did you know that i had an OBE and i met a cat which said that you are wrong! wow definitive proof.


#64    sonofkrypton

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Posted 10 January 2004 - 03:14 PM

Being an Atheist i'd like to offer one thought on this creationvsevolution:-

What if the big bang happened and the planets an galaxies and all else was created and God decided to put his magic spoon in the cooking pot so to speak and started life off but that he also created a way for life to progress on its own ie evolution
i may be over simplifying this what does everyone think (be gentle) disgust.gif  

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#65    Nethius

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Posted 10 January 2004 - 03:43 PM

QUOTE (Student&Alive @ Jan 10 2004, 07:14 AM)
I Am Thirteen Heres My Proof Of My Faith

Yes thats proof of your faith, not of creation

QUOTE
Experience Even One Of They First Two and you will without doubt believe in God...


and i have experienced obe when i was younger.  i learned a technique used to try and control your dreams, and often before i went to sleep i would have that experience.  i believe it to be a state of mind, i put my mind in such a state that it would seem like i'm having an obe, but it is just like dreaming, it really isnt happening.

i have since stopped, becasue it was freaking me out, and i would often be aware in my dreams, try to wake up, and not be able to!  that is a scary situation

but again, this is all in my head!  there is no God controlling me, or whatever...




#66    Xenojjin

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Posted 10 January 2004 - 05:19 PM

QUOTE
sigh, i'll say it once more, its impossible to prove a negative assertion..
perhaps you should try to offer evidence in regards to your beliefs instead of asking me to disprove them.
run along now


QUOTE
evolution disproves creationism


It would be nice if you could stop contradicting yourself .

QUOTE
there is a HUGE difference between Christianity and Science, science is based on testable facts and observations, christianity is based on heresay and superstition. Its like saying that The Lord of the Rings is as much of a historical account as a non-fiction book about World War 2.


You dont know much about the bible then . Taking out all the things about god , their are records of historical events in the bible that have been proven to have occured , even Jesus's crucifiction is documented elsewhere outside the bible .



In the way, the supernatural is what's behind the curtain. Normally, you only need to see what's happening in stage. That's how reality works. If you don't know then it's for the best. Actually, learning about the supernatural only increases the number of things you don't know.

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#67    Fluffybunny

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Posted 10 January 2004 - 06:00 PM

QUOTE (Xenojjin @ Jan 9 2004, 10:30 PM)
Oh well this ones already entering the realm of religion vs science which cant go anywhere ... I tried to make a joke out of it but noooooo.....


QUOTE
woot , sounds like more of a blow to other atheists then the non atheists


Actually it isn't a blow to anybody really. I have seen that people have been using both evolution and the big bang theory in an attempt to disprove gods existance. I happen to have been a biology major in college, with a minor in astronomy. I have a little bit of knowledge about the two issues and get defensive when they are repeatedly used outside of the scope of their intended use. Neither of the originators of their theories was trying to disprove a god at all.

Before this gets taken out of context I need to add a caveat. If you are a biblical literalist and think that the earth was actually created in 6 calander days(with a day off for god), well then we aren't going to see eye to eye no matter how hard we try.

Both of these theories deal with much longer timelines that the biblical 6 millenia. Although science allows for the timelines to adjust a bit to allow for new scientific findings, we are still talking about evolution occuring over millions of years, and the big bang occuring some 13 billion years ago.

QUOTE
Whos side are you taking anyway ?

I am taking the side of logic and reasoning. As I have said in the past I want people to think.

If someone chooses to believe in christianity because they feel that is their own best personal choice, that is wonderful, and I am fully supportive of that. I have a problem when people choose a given religeon without any thought, or out of fear of going to hell. I have alot of concerns with how christianity gets it's followers, but that is a different thread. Fundamentalists bother me to no end...


QUOTE
Oh well this ones already entering the realm of religion vs science which cant go anywhere

I don't think that is the case at all. It can be interesting to see other peoples point of view. It can be good to learn about what motivates other people to their given point of view. Just as long as it doesn't turn into a screaming match.


Too many people on both sides of the spectrum have fallen into this mentality that a full one half of the country are the enemy for having different beliefs...in a country based on freedom of expression. It is this infighting that allows the focus to be taken away from "we the people" being able to watch, and have control over government corruption and ineptitude that is running rampant in our leadership.

People should be working towards fixing problems, not creating them.

#68    Xenojjin

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Posted 10 January 2004 - 06:16 PM

In that case , my motive for becoming christian was because I really liked some of the views protrayed in it .

"treat others how you like to b treated"

"Let he who has no sin cast the first stone"

ect

In the way, the supernatural is what's behind the curtain. Normally, you only need to see what's happening in stage. That's how reality works. If you don't know then it's for the best. Actually, learning about the supernatural only increases the number of things you don't know.

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#69    joc

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Posted 10 January 2004 - 07:40 PM

QUOTE
Being an Atheist i'd like to offer one thought on this creationvsevolution:-

What if the big bang happened and the planets an galaxies and all else was created and God decided to put his magic spoon in the cooking pot so to speak and started life off but that he also created a way for life to progress on its own ie evolution
i may be over simplifying this what does everyone think (be gentle)


It really is an either or concept.  Either God created everything or he didn't create anything. wink2.gif  

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#70    Void

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Posted 10 January 2004 - 07:52 PM

It really is an either or concept. Either God created everything or he didn't create anything.  

I don't think the previous post went against that position.

He was saying couldn't God have created the universe to operate through natural mechanisms?

So species are created by evolution. But evolution was created by God, therefore species are created by God and he uses the mechanism of evolution.


#71    joc

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Posted 10 January 2004 - 08:34 PM

QUOTE
I don't think the previous post went against that position.


After closer review...you are right.

I actually hold that view myself.  Thanks. thumbsup.gif  

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#72    sonofkrypton

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Posted 10 January 2004 - 08:35 PM

thankyou void you put it better than i did original.gif  

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#73    Novo

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Posted 10 January 2004 - 11:11 PM

QUOTE (Nethius @ Jan 10 2004, 02:43 PM)
QUOTE (Student&Alive @ Jan 10 2004, 07:14 AM)
I Am Thirteen Heres My Proof Of My Faith

Yes thats proof of your faith, not of creation

QUOTE
Experience Even One Of They First Two and you will without doubt believe in God...


and i have experienced obe when i was younger.  i learned a technique used to try and control your dreams, and often before i went to sleep i would have that experience.  i believe it to be a state of mind, i put my mind in such a state that it would seem like i'm having an obe, but it is just like dreaming, it really isnt happening.

i have since stopped, becasue it was freaking me out, and i would often be aware in my dreams, try to wake up, and not be able to!  that is a scary situation

but again, this is all in my head!  there is no God controlling me, or whatever...

My faith is in creation... And have you ever been aware when your leaving your body? Try sleeping over at a friends have them put something in the kitchen like a number on a piece of paper... leave your body and look at it... theres your proof... Thats a obe... what you talking about is a lucid dream....

The stupider people think you are, the more suprised they are when you kill them.
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History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people.
-Martin Luthur king Jr, activist


Never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was legal.
- Martin luthur King Jr., activist

#74    bathory

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Posted 11 January 2004 - 04:19 AM

QUOTE
It would be nice if you could stop contradicting yourself .


...sigh
it looks like i'm going to have to explain it out slowly for you
ok, when talking about a negative assertion, i'm refering to a universal negative such as lets see...uh god! unless one is omniscient, one must conceed that somewhere out there god may exist. In that case, asking someone to disprove god is like asking them to disprove lickertappers (thats something i made up, still with me? )
Evolution and Creationism are both clearly defined AND are supposed to apply to the earth, both are models which are concerned with the same thing and are mutually exclusive, neither present the problem of a universal negative, therefore negative assertions don't apply...capiche?

QUOTE
You dont know much about the bible then . Taking out all the things about god , their are records of historical events in the bible that have been proven to have occured , even Jesus's crucifiction is documented elsewhere outside the bible .


you've got to be kidding me? Just because Jesus was crucified does not mean he was the son of god. Great logic, so i'll assume that because Rainbow 6 by Tom Clancy makes use of real historical events that can be verified elsewhere, that the actual events in the story occured.




#75    Xenojjin

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Posted 11 January 2004 - 04:43 AM

your taking this too hard bathory , and you are contradicting yourself
QUOTE

evolution disproves creationism


ok , creationism is the idea of god , so its a universal negative .

QUOTE
i'm refering to a universal negative such as lets see...uh god!


you agree to this apperantly , now you say

QUOTE
therefore negative assertions don't apply...capiche?


so its impossible to disprove a negative , true .

Now lets substitute in "evolution disproves creationism" with "god" therefore negative like you are saying

QUOTE
evolution disproves a negative


A slip of the tongue perhaps ?  

In the way, the supernatural is what's behind the curtain. Normally, you only need to see what's happening in stage. That's how reality works. If you don't know then it's for the best. Actually, learning about the supernatural only increases the number of things you don't know.

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