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What happened in the begining?


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#16    knightwalker41

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Posted 15 January 2004 - 01:03 PM

prehaps your right. maybe im just not sure what my question really is. or where i can get answers.  i think its just that im seeing things a bit differently. i read the previous topic that was closed, about what happened before the bible and the jists of the replys were that the bible was religion and that we should look to the current theories of science.  I was thinking abit about it and started wondering  how does science  know it was just - big bang - planets form- seas make life - life starts - dinosaurs evolve -  dinosaurs die - humans evolve- humans still currently here. science seems to assume that we came from ape like species and that we started with primative brains and just developed into where we are now my question is what if they werent primative brains? what if they had ideas and concepts that we dont currently understand? i think its possible. But i guess theres no way of finding out.



God sent the flood to wipe out whatever it was that was so terrible that we were doing, however he made a promise never to ever do that again.  Hence why no flood now (unless ice caps melt:P), also insurance companies would really have to use the "Act of God" clause tongue.gif


#17    Consummate Deist

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Posted 15 January 2004 - 03:23 PM

I am not bashing any religion, since most mainline Christians believe that Genesis is an analogy and not a factual history or science book.  I hate to see mythology of any type passed off as history or science, so I will address this myth.  Most people who believe that there was a world-wide flood are of the group known as YECs (Young Earth Creationists) and believe that the world “magically” sprang into existence 6000 years ago, that about 2500 BCE (Before Current Era also known as BC) there was a “great world-wide” flood, in which God destroyed everything except Noah, his family and breeding stock (I won’t go into this since there are two separate versions in Genesis as to how many of each animal was chosen).  Unfortunately, God neglected to tell the rest of the world that they were under 6 miles of water (see my posting on page 2 of ‘Geologists Demand Removal of Creationist Book’, Main Front Page News), so they carried on as usual, living, breeding, loving, eating, sleeping, making war, and most especially writing!  It would seem that the Egyptians, Sumerians, Akkadians, and Chinese would notice all the water, but they didn’t.  We have entire recovered libraries of material (histories, non-Hebrew scriptures, business records, business letters, personal letters, diplomatic dispatches, royal proclamations, etc) that were written from 3000 BCE to 1000BCE and later!  No where is the flood mentioned, even during the period that it supposedly happened!  As for the 6000 year date for the creation, the dating method known as Dendrochonology, using tree rings (wet years and dry years lined up on different trees and wooden artifacts) to date things has pushed back  9000  continuous years to 7000 BCE and ice layer dating to 10000 BCE!  Again, I am not bashing any religion, I just hate having mythology  pushed at me as a fact!  wink2.gif  

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#18    Celumnaz

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Posted 15 January 2004 - 05:21 PM

I believe there was a worldwide flood in Noah's time.

I also believe the universe and civilizations and planets came and went for millions or billions of years before the creation story picks up.

I'm beggining to think the flood didn't wipe out everyone, but until I work it through, read more, I'm going to stick to the belief that it did, other than those in the ark.

I also think there were not 2 of every species, but more.

I'm not positive on Adam and Eve being the first, only, humans...  The first of their kind maybe.  But I'm not sure completely how I think that went.  Just as easy for me to believe they had 30+ kids and through incest and long lives multiplied rapidly before the Cain incedent.

Neanderthals and such I think were part of the nephilim thing... possibly the neph are also in "our image" and through generations in animal hosts can produce genetic alterations the likes of pigmen or dogmen or minotaurs or what not... don't think they were stupid in the least...  quite the opposite... they were like mules... mix breeds... powerful and smart... maybe sterile... probably stubborn... I also think the nephilim are returning as aliens and are continuing this breeding project under this new guise... It's just as easy for people today to believe in technologically advanced alien creators as it was for people back then to believe in magical half-god, many god creators.  Same trick, modified for modern consumption.

I also believe that some scientists set out to prove their theory, not discover the truth.  Also, data can be mis-read, misinterpreted.  Current thought could be proven wrong and change everything... maybe it has and it's in a notebook at the smithsonian.  Evidence possibly not discovered yet, coming to conclusions without having all the peices yet... deadlines forcing some to write a report the author doesn't believe in but is stamped with the scientific seal of approval... how many inconclusives can they have before funding is dropped....

I do believe evolution is a true process, but I don't think it's how We got here.  As old as I think the universe and our planet are though, I think evolution is inevitable.  Just to me it doesn't rule out God at all... or creation.  I find it harder to believe in a perfect series of random reactions leading up to me typing this message out... now that takes faith.


#19    Consummate Deist

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Posted 15 January 2004 - 08:12 PM

QUOTE
I think evolution is inevitable. Just to me it doesn't rule out God at all


Spoken like a true Deist- Bravo.  As far as the flood goes, you must explain why the highly literate societies of that time continued without interruption and made no mention of a planetwide ocean 6 miles deep.....They were there, they surely would have noticed that much rain!  rolleyes.gif  

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#20    Seraphina

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Posted 15 January 2004 - 08:52 PM

QUOTE
I was thinking abit about it and started wondering how does science know it was just - big bang - planets form- seas make life - life starts - dinosaurs evolve - dinosaurs die - humans evolve- humans still currently here


You see my friend...this is the crucial, defining factor in why I follow science instead of religion...Scientist research their theories...and it takes a great deal of very solid proof indeed before something can actually be accepted by the mainstream scientific community. Theories are put through meticulous scrutiny before they can be accepted, tried, tested, and proven to within a near impossible marigin or error to be the most likely course of events.

For religion, there is no research...there is no logical thinking and there is no proof; all there is, is blind 'faith' that an event occured, with no evidence and no real thinking about whether or not it was true. Science is able to 'assume' what it does after painstaking research that religion simply does not undertake...which is also why it's far more likely to be correct.

All you have to do is look higher up in this thread, were the comment...

QUOTE
We have entire recovered libraries of material (histories, non-Hebrew scriptures, business records, business letters, personal letters, diplomatic dispatches, royal proclamations, etc) that were written from 3000 BCE to 1000BCE and later! No where is the flood mentioned, even during the period that it supposedly happened!


Was immedietly followed by the comment by the next poster...

QUOTE
I believe there was a worldwide flood in Noah's time.


To see how irrational the very ideas of religion are, and how flatly some of its more devout followers refuse to look facts in the face huh.gif



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#21    Consummate Deist

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Posted 15 January 2004 - 09:04 PM

to quote our Christ Cultist friends "Amen Seraphina Amen!" thumbsup.gif  

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#22    knightwalker41

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Posted 16 January 2004 - 11:41 AM

according to what ive read  moses was around 3000bc. the flood happened much much much earlier.  hence why theres no record of around that time. And i understand that science is tested and proved to extents, but science cant explain everything. take love for instance. some scientists believe its just a hormone. but if thats true then why do people sacrifice themselves for their loved one?.  Why do people committ to each other? it would make more scense if we all just kept multiplying and never thought about love. why are their ghosts and angels and demons and the occult? theres got to be a spiritual side to this universe that cant have been created by random chance. I believe we are here for a reason and a purpose and for me that could only come from God.

I understand what you are saying that the events recorded in genesis are not easily scientifical proven. but there is proof for the flood, scientists have documented how using geology they have discovered that in the area of the middle east there was at some time a large flood. and i understand  that scientists have  found a few skulls that appear to look like a cross between an ape and a human but ive also read that they have found skulls that look identical to modern day humans that when dated come out as the same time period as the ape like ones. yet these were considered irrelevant because they dont fit the evolution theory. Im sure that there is enough evidence out there for scientists to disprove evolution of man from apes, it they wanted to find it.  anyways as  i said before i didnt want to turn this into a Religion vs Science debate. I just wondered if anyone else had any thoughts as to the theory that we werent unsophicated cavemen.


#23    bathory

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Posted 16 January 2004 - 11:44 AM

if you don't want to turn it into a debate, perhaps you should actually research what you are talking.


#24    Seraphina

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Posted 16 January 2004 - 12:35 PM

QUOTE
they have discovered that in the area of the middle east there was at some time a large flood


One second...let me just tune up my sarcasm engine properly...*coughs*....

Okay, ready now grin2.gif

WOA! You're kidding! There was actually a flood in the middle east at some point in history! Wow! Well, I'm convinced cool.gif

*sighs*

I'm afraid I agree with Bathory...and no, the sarcasm engine isn't still running tongue.gif...I think you'll find the tendancy to 'ignore facts' that don't fit into their belief system is one that falls very much in the other camp rather than scientific circles...what is more often than not cited as 'dismissal of facts' is actually when the scientific world chooses to disregard radical or outlandish concepts...now this is the important part...because of lack of proof, or excessive proof to the contrary.

I'm still waiting, I'm afraid, for someone to come up with a fraction of the real evidence that might actually lend credibility to creationism as there is for evolution...I'm not planning on holding my breath for it either wink2.gif  

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#25    bathory

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Posted 16 January 2004 - 12:59 PM

i mean, crap, believe what you want to believe
but don't insult our intelligence and present evidence that doesn't exist.


#26    Consummate Deist

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Posted 16 January 2004 - 01:21 PM

QUOTE
what is more often than not cited as 'dismissal of facts' is actually when the scientific world chooses to disregard radical or outlandish concepts...now this is the important part...because of lack of proof, or excessive proof to the contrary.


Over on the Exchristian.net website, they have a saying - "Those making Fantastic or Extraordinary Claims must present Fantastic or Extraordinary Proof in order to be taken seriously".  That might be a good point for this forum, at least when debating mythology.  wink2.gif  

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#27    Seraphina

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Posted 16 January 2004 - 02:15 PM

Ah, but you see my Deist friend...a claim that present no better evidence than something "Fantastic or Extraordinary", as opposed to proof based on clear, observable...or at the very least plausible...facts, isn't a theory, it's merely speculation wink2.gif  

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#28    Celumnaz

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Posted 16 January 2004 - 02:55 PM

If someone want's scientific proof of the flood just go look for it.

Here's a quick spoonfeed.

http://www.hi.is/~joner/eaps/wh_noah.htm
http://www.dinosaursandcreation.com/slideshow3m.htm
http://www.mesora.org/tsinai-2.html
http://www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/aflood3.htm
http://www.pbs.org/saf/1207/features/noah4.htm
http://pages.zdnet.com/rwfortune/sitebuild...ereanyproof.htm

And I could go on and on and on and on.

From Canada to the Dead Sea to Ireland and on there are proofs for those scientists who care to recognize them.  Some scientists wouldn't believe in God if he punched them in the face, and are as much a hinderance to the truth than some of those idiotic fanatics on the religious side.

I don't blindly believe all science.  I don't believe in all the environmental problems scientists tout.  One scientist will say one thing and another will have completely different results.  Think the Bible contradicts itself?  Listen to science.  Wasn't the world going to end in the 70's due to global cooling?  I'm not saying don't listen to science at all, but use the brain God gave you.

Once you've got the idea that God is malarky, and you don't want to be wrong, you will no longer look at both sides of an issue but only the side you hold dear. Scientists.

I swear I saw a Discovery Channel program that gave many scientific accounts on the flood being a real event.

I'm talking "The Flood" not "A Flood"... we know what we're talking about here.  The not so local event.

Now, could someone spoon feed me a link to what Consummate Deist was talking about "‘Geologists Demand Removal of Creationist Book’, Main Front Page News" please?  I can't find it and I actually like to keep an open mind about both sides and would like to read it.


#29    Seraphina

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Posted 16 January 2004 - 03:05 PM

You know, I'm not proposing that there never was a flood that may have sparked off the story of Noah's ark...however, one of the very links you posted reads

"the possible source of the Old Testament story of Noah." Not evidence...but the SOURCE of what may have sparked the story...

Simply because there may once have been a flood that might even have inspired the story, it does not mean that the flood was caused by God, and I think all the facts point very firmly in the direction of it being a local event. If there are any scientists out there arguing that two of every type of animal, and a handful of people could great the diverse gene pool that exists today, then they're not scientists, they're morons wink2.gif

Tell me...have you ever heard of "The Epic of Gilgamesh"? It's a very interesting story, dating from the Sumarians...who were most likely the earliest civilisation on our planet (predating the old testament by some time)....now...one of the interesting things is that this story is, essentially, the story of Noah's arc...with the essential details changed, but overall the same story...

...Now...this story was written thousands of years before Noah's flood supposedly happened...so what does this mean children?

In short, it means that the most likely possibility is that Noah's arc, just like the crusifix and any number of other stories and holy symbols in the Christian Religion was stolen or assembled from beliefs and cultures that came before them.

At most, based on an actual event that was heavily dramatised when someone of the time perhaps found out about the Epic of Gilgamesh and thought it was real...and at the more likely end of the spectrum, a work of pure...pilfered...fantasy tongue.gif

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#30    Celumnaz

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Posted 16 January 2004 - 10:21 PM

lol, we're just never going to agree... well, I can't say never... keeping on keeping on...

Ok, so there possibly was a flood.  Trying to find some common ground.

I can concede that it possibly wasn't caused by God since we can't agree if there is/isn't one... but there was a flood.

Now the facts pointing it to be a local event... Hmmm...  we're going to have to go for real facts here and it could get tricky.  Luckily the few links I copied and pasted do talk about different locations around the world.  There were many more links of proof positive I found thanks to Google, but I can't agree that it was local.  Show me some of these all the facts pointing firmly that it was local, please?

There were more than 2 of every animal, the handfull of people were of different race.  There's not much agrument about that amongst those who have really read the bible... even the scientific minded morons.  Perfectly explains our diverse gene pool, especially coupled with evolution/mutation/adaptation to climate/terrain over time.
What's the problem?

Yes, I have heard of Gilgamesh... read it once too 15-20 years ago...

Ok, once again someone's going to have to provide some facts or we go nowhere and I start reverting back to that faith thing again and I don't wanna do that but it's habbit.

I don't think the Sumerians were The Earliest Civilaztion... there were other small ones, but that's kinda moot for what we're talking about...

And when you say predating you mean the Sumerians predated the writing of the Old Testament, irregardless that the OT starts at The Beginning before the Sumerians right?  Couple things there... What dates is Gilgamesh set in, and what dates is Noah's story supposedly set in?  I'm terrible at math and dates but I'd like to know the truth, and if this is the point of contention please provide the dates to rub in my face and I'll go from there.  But it's not like nobody's written a story that hasn't come true before.  Anyway, if the Writing of the Epic predates the supposed Time of Noah then I have some research to do, until I see the dates (I'm no researcher, orator, or debator) I'll stick with my belief because well... it makes sense to this "child".





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