[UM-Bot]

1963: President Kennedy is assassinated as his motorcade passes through Dealey Plaza in downtown Dallas. Texas Gov. John Connally, riding in the same car as Kennedy, is seriously wounded. The Warren Commission, set up by order of President Johnson to investigate the assassination, concluded that Kennedy was killed by a lone gunman, Lee Harvey Oswald, firing from the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository.

View: Full Article | Source: Wired

[Gatofeo]

This posting adds nothing I couldn't see on a late-night documentary made in 1973.
What's your point?

I've been to Dealy Plaza in Dallas. I've also been to the museum in the former book depository. It's on the same floor as from where Oswald took his shots.
I have no doubts that Oswald was one of the shooters, but as an experienced rifleman and pistolero I don't believe he was the only shooter. You cannot acdtually stand at the window where Oswald took his shots, that area is glassed off and left as it originally appeared.
However, you can stand in a window about 15 feet from the shooter's window. I stood in that window and watched the slow-moving traffic below (it was rush hour).
In my head I thought, "Bang! ... Bang! ... Bang! ... Bang!" as I watched a particular car. I just couldn't see how anyone with a bolt-action rifle, especially an average person like Oswald, could make such shots accurately.
The distance was, as I recall, about 80 yards. What is frequently not mentioned or realized is the angle at which you must hold the rifle. Remember, the avenue is at the foot of the building, you're about 60 feet above it, so you have to shoot down at quite an angle. It's not just a flat shot across 80 yards to a paper target.
It has been demonstrated many times that an expert rifleman, with the Italian-made Carcano rifle, can get off a number of shots on a human silhouette at the prerequisite distance. But often, on these documentaries, they're shooting prone or from a benchrest. Let them stand up, point the rifle down a canyon and then try it. I'd wager the results would be quite different.
So where was the second (or third or fourth or fifth, etc.) gunman?
I believe he was on the "grassy knoll," which is little more than a narrow strip of grass on a slight incline.
I suspect at least one more shooter was there.

And another thing ...
There are many reports noting that the Carcano 6.5mm rifle, as used by the Italians, is woefully inaccurate.
This is not necessarily the case. Read on ...
I reload for about 20 different rifle and pistol calibers, as well as two shotgun gauges. I have nearly 40 years of experience in reloading ammunition.
A few years ago, I was reading a gun magazine about reloading the 6.5X52mm cartridge for the Italian Mannlicher Carcano rifle.
In that article, the author noted that the common diameter for 6.5mm bullets is .264 inch.
However, he measured the bore of his particular Italian rifle and found it measured .267 inch.
Now, firing a .264 inch diameter bullet down a .267 inch bore would be inaccurate. Ideally, the bullet should exactly fit the bore, or be very slightly oversized.
He measured bulets pulled from surplus WWII Italian cartridges and found they varied from .264 to .268 inch diameter. It is not unusual for quality control to suffer during wartime so this disparity is not startling.
I believe that people who have fired the Italian 6.5X52, and found it inaccurate, probably had a rifle with a large bore of .267 or .268, and fired bullets of .264 in it. Had they measured the bore, they might have realized why that particular rifle was so inaccurate.
What does all this mean?
It means that a good Italian 6.5X52 rifle, with the proper bore, and firing bullets that match the bore, can be very accurate --- contrary to the claims of Conspiracy Theorists that claim the Carcano is a horribly inaccurate rifle.
Was Oswald lucky enough to get a good Carcano, and good ammo? We'll never know unless the bore of the rifle is measured, and the diameter of the bullets he used are measured. It is my understanding that some unfired ammo was left behind, but I may be wrong on this account.

So, your post revealed nothing new.
But I hope I have added something new to the discussion.

[Oen Anderson]

JFK signed executive order 11110 ordering the Treasury to print 4.2 billion dollars in silver certificates backed by silver at the Treasury. This would have effectivly closed the New York branch of the Federal Reserve. That would have been a start in stopping the conspiracy called "The Money Matrix". Two months later JFK was murdered and the order was never carried out. The money matrix continues to this day to its ultimate conclusion very soon.

[ThePitOfReason]

Thats how I see it. Only two presidents in history ever tried to throw out the twisted banking system we have in this country. Both of them were killed. Not hard to figure out if you think about it. Money can buy anything when it comes to those who can print as much as they want. And they never have to pay taxes and even our own goverment owes them money. How can our own country owe money to a bank? The American dollar is not American at all it is just paper. Based on nothing but the paper and ink it took to print it.

[Denzanrom]

ThePitOfReason on Nov 29 2007, 04:44 PM, said:

Thats how I see it. Only two presidents in history ever tried to throw out the twisted banking system we have in this country. Both of them were killed. Not hard to figure out if you think about it. Money can buy anything when it comes to those who can print as much as they want. And they never have to pay taxes and even our own goverment owes them money. How can our own country owe money to a bank? The American dollar is not American at all it is just paper. Based on nothing but the paper and ink it took to print it.

Ah. So that article about the Money Matrix makes sense after reading this.

They just keep printing the money without any official or real value attached to it. It kind of sounds like forgery, except its not because its from the Treasury itself. Am I right?

[Oen Anderson]

Denzanrom on Nov 30 2007, 12:49 AM, said:

Ah. So that article about the Money Matrix makes sense after reading this.

They just keep printing the money without any official or real value attached to it. It kind of sounds like forgery, except its not because its from the Treasury itself. Am I right?

Sorry friend, our currency is a private currency owned by the Federal Reserve, which they lease to the Treasury for a fee. Incidently their fee is paid in gold. Does that tell you anything?

[Repoman]

Gatofeo on Nov 25 2007, 03:34 PM, said:

However, you can stand in a window about 15 feet from the shooter's window. I stood in that window and watched the slow-moving traffic below (it was rush hour).
In my head I thought, "Bang! ... Bang! ... Bang! ... Bang!" as I watched a particular car. I just couldn't see how anyone with a bolt-action rifle, especially an average person like Oswald, could make such shots accurately.
The distance was, as I recall, about 80 yards. What is frequently not mentioned or realized is the angle at which you must hold the rifle. Remember, the avenue is at the foot of the building, you're about 60 feet above it, so you have to shoot down at quite an angle. It's not just a flat shot across 80 yards to a paper target.
It has been demonstrated many times that an expert rifleman, with the Italian-made Carcano rifle, can get off a number of shots on a human silhouette at the prerequisite distance. But often, on these documentaries, they're shooting prone or from a benchrest. Let them stand up, point the rifle down a canyon and then try it. I'd wager the results would be quite different.

There is a video game called JFK:Reloaded and it is an exact re-creation of the event. The speed of the traffic, the velocity of the bullets, working the bolt, etc. etc.
The game is free. Download and play it and you will see it is possible.

Well, actually, we already know it is possible because it already happened in 1963.

Info about the game at Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia....i/JFK:_Reloaded

This post has been edited by Repoman: 03 December 2007 - 05:52 PM

[unit]

JFK:Reloaded? ..that's just wrong

[fallingalien]

Repoman on Dec 3 2007, 01:52 PM, said:

There is a video game called JFK:Reloaded and it is an exact re-creation of the event. The speed of the traffic, the velocity of the bullets, working the bolt, etc. etc.
The game is free. Download and play it and you will see it is possible.

Well, actually, we already know it is possible because it already happened in 1963.

Info about the game at Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia....i/JFK:_Reloaded

So, you use cheap video games for evidence??

Man, where are those Mario brothers? They must be the WMDs in Iraq! Whatever they jump on crumbles!

Let's see you pull this off, btw, if he was such a great sniper, he would of shot from a different location. His location was so busy it wasn't even funny.

Also, look up a little group, and a secret program called "MK ultra"... Put the pieces together.

[DeadMagicKnowsStuff]

I would like to note that people may think that Conaly was istting infront of SFk ans slight to the left , making the magic bullet not magic at all, but look at that photo , its blatenly obvious that conally was not to the left , also after the assaination the limo was taken apart cleaned and then put together with diffrent parts , why ? clearly this is somthing that detectives would take months searching for Blood splats , and other things. Also JFK's head goes back and to the left after the 3rd shot , headshot this means that some one had to be at the "grassy knole" also more people ran to the grassy knole than the TBD , ( texus book depostiry) i am currently learning this in history at the moment so my mind is not currpted with crazy and daft theorys.

[Incorrigible1]

Gatofeo on Nov 25 2007, 03:34 PM, said:

What is frequently not mentioned or realized is the angle at which you must hold the rifle. Remember, the avenue is at the foot of the building, you're about 60 feet above it, so you have to shoot down at quite an angle. It's not just a flat shot across 80 yards to a paper target.

Excellent posting! When shooting at a downward angle, a rifleman has to account for the angle, as the bullet impact will tend to hit higher than the aiming point.

And the new poster "DeadMagicKnowsStuff" mentions, Kennedy's head recoiled in the opposite direction from shots Oswald would have taken. I commend his learning facts in his history class, and might suggest a little effort into spelling lessons, too!

[Gatofeo]

You cannot judge how a person will react from a brain-shot.
Read the book, "One Shot, One Kill" and other books concerning the experiences of military snipers. They often make the point that they could tell when they hit a man in the head because he immediately went spastic, head and limbs violently flying about for a few seconds.
Hit in the chest or abdomen, most men just collapsed without the spastic effect.
A shot to the brain deprives the body of electro impulses that control muscles and vital organs.
You simply cannot state with certainty that a head will move in one direction or another, based upon the entry and exit of the bullet. This is particularly true of small diameter bullets, that punch through skin and bone like a sharpened pencil through a paper cup.
They may leave large wounds, but their entry is usually quite small by comparison.
The 6.5 Carcano bullet is .26-caliber, a little more than 1/4 inch in diameter. The bullets are small in diameter, but long. Such a bullet tends to tumble when hitting something resistant like bone. This would cause massive damage to the brain; it's anyone's guess how a head thus-shot would react.

[Incorrigible1]

Half of JFK's skull landed upon the trunk of the limo. I've a hard time believing that could occur from a shot from the rear. Isaac Newton agrees.

Perhaps it's not impossible, just another highly unlikely occurrence in a string of unlikely events.

The fact Jack Ruby offed Oswald so soon after the assassination is another tell.

[someoldguy]

The entirety of the Kennedy assassination files from the Warren report were supposed to be made public 75 years after the event, but it's apparently been moved to as recent as 2017. Here is the link:

http://en.wikipedia....y_assassination

And here is a portion of the relevant information from that link

Quote

The unpublished supporting documents for the Warren Commission Report are due to be released by 2017. The Commission's unpublished records were initially sealed for 75 years (to 2039) under a general National Archives policy that applied to all federal investigations by the executive branch of government,[67] a period "intended to serve as protection for innocent persons who could otherwise be damaged because of their relationship with participants in the case.”[68]

I was 11 years old when President Kennedy, one of the greatest presidents of the 20th century, was assassinated (such a horrible, tragic time!) and I remember hearing of this a year or two later. And, soon afterward, the conspiracy theories began, with books being sold by the millions.

By now, I've heard so many conspiracy theories that I'm sick of hearing about them. I'll just wait for the official report, God willing I should live so long.

This post has been edited by someoldguy: 18 June 2008 - 08:20 AM

[someoldguy]

I wanted to point out something that I'd noticed just after I posted this quote:

Quote

a period "intended to serve as protection for innocent persons who could otherwise be damaged because of their relationship with participants in the case.”

Participants. As in more than one.

OK, so even the Warren Report might agree that there was more than one gunman (Oswald.)

Just one more theory in a sea of theories: The other gunman/gunmen were caught and killed outright by police/FBI, who were undoubtedly very emotional at the time. The Commission was sympathetic (as I would be) and placed the initial 75 year moratorium on releasing the full report.

But that's just a theory. Hopefully we'll find out in 9 more years!