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WHERE WAS THE GARDEN OF EDEN LOCATED?


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#16    Seraphina

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 09:37 AM

QUOTE
the same can be said for anyone with an opinion on anything


Not everyone who has an opinion on something acts like a ruder version of Ann Robinson, only without the catchy phrase tongue.gif

Debates aren't game shows, miss Nxt2Hvn, you don't have a pretty little buzzer for your itchy fingers to press when someone says something that isn't on the card in front of you, and people who don't agree with you have just as much right to argue their own belief tongue.gif

On a sidenote, what Diest said was factually correct; Eden is mentioned only in Genesis; it is nowhere else actually refered to as any historical location tongue.gif Therefore I think his observation of it is a pretty fair statement.



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#17    Fluffybunny

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 09:53 AM

My guess would be that, much like the parables, the story of the Garden of Eden in Genesis is just that; a simple story.

My guess is that it was used to make a point, just a fictional backdrop for the concept of a perfect place.

Too many people on both sides of the spectrum have fallen into this mentality that a full one half of the country are the enemy for having different beliefs...in a country based on freedom of expression. It is this infighting that allows the focus to be taken away from "we the people" being able to watch, and have control over government corruption and ineptitude that is running rampant in our leadership.

People should be working towards fixing problems, not creating them.

#18    mowo

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 10:00 AM

Everyone knows that Eden, or the Eden project to be correct, is in Cornwall....

Anyway, if it was flooded, could it be Atlantis?

Or could it be Egypt? When the land was lush and tropical?


#19    Stamford

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 11:32 AM

Ah, another Holy War..hooray!!!

"The future's uncertain and the end is always near."

Jim Morrison

"When you laugh about people, so very, very lonely their only desire is to die, well I'm afraid it doesn't make me smile. I wish I could laugh. But that joke isn't funny anymore, it's too close to home and it's too near the bone... "

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#20    Consummate Deist

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 03:01 PM

If we accept the Garden of Eden as factual, then we must also accept Vahalla of the Norse sagas as factual!  Americans are a diverse people, we come from many different cultures, all the known races, and many many different religions.  Debates such as this assume that the Judeo-Christian religion is the one "true" religion, when there actually exists no factual secular evidence that this is correct.  The Buddhists just might have it right, or the Shintos, or the Taoists, or the Deists and to make the statement that someone is a loser just because they don't subscribe to your particular brand of mythology shows the world what a loser YOU are.  I personally think that all places like Vahalla, the Garden of Eden, etc; exist in one place only - the holy script of that religion and the minds and hearts of the adherents, no place else!  thumbsup.gif    

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#21    Novo

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 03:56 PM

Deist all she asked was a question.
you are the one acting like a 4 year old, not even stopping to consider her beliefs.
your a imature person and should have learned by now that if you have nothing productive to add to a thread (other than holy wars tongue.gif) then you should not even bother posting now leave us so called uneducated christians alone  blink.gif  

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#22    Consummate Deist

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 05:56 PM

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you are the one acting like a 4 year old, not even stopping to consider her beliefs.


Since when does her beliefs take precedence over my beliefs?  Does being a Christ Cultist make one superior to Deists, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, or others?  I think not!  She did not take my beliefs in consideration when she started spewing what to me is pure mythology, so I don't see how I am being immature to point out that calling someone a loser because they do not subscribe to your particular set of beliefs.  That action IS the height of immaturity and rudeness.

QUOTE
your a imature person and should have learned by now that if you have nothing productive to add to a thread (other than holy wars ) then you should not even bother posting now leave us so called uneducated christians alone 


Well excuse me if my concept of a productive post does not meet the standards of your belief system.  We Deists are taught to question any contention and not to accept something on faith alone (if it requires faith because there is no unbiased scientific proof, then it is no more than a legend/myth/fairy tale), to require those making fantastic claims to provide equally fantastic proof.  I will remain steadfast, that Eden is at best an allegory and at worse ancient Hebrew mythology, until substantial proof is offered - After all many Christians believe that the Garden of Eden is only an allegory!   As for leaving you so-called uneducated christians alone, that particular knife cuts both ways, you get what you give.  devil.gif  

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#23    Celumnaz

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 06:01 PM

lol get used to it.  It's better to believe in fairies than God here.  rolleyes.gif

Christian Bashing never gets old I guess.  Won't be long before we're hunted down like dogs so may as well get used to this... it's nothing compared to what the end times will be like.

And my opinion is Eden location is in Iraq and the flood covered it up.


#24    Fluffybunny

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 06:06 PM

QUOTE (Student&Alive @ Jan 27 2004, 07:56 AM)
Deist all she asked was a question.
you are the one acting like a 4 year old, not even stopping to consider her beliefs.
your a imature person and should have learned by now that if you have nothing productive to add to a thread (other than holy wars tongue.gif) then you should not even bother posting now leave us so called uneducated christians alone  blink.gif

Student, I think you may want to read some of the other threads that Nxt2Hvn has started to see where all of this is coming from, there is more to it than just this thread...

Some people are getting a bit more sensitive the the religious posts that have been popping up lately. With reason too... wink2.gif  

Too many people on both sides of the spectrum have fallen into this mentality that a full one half of the country are the enemy for having different beliefs...in a country based on freedom of expression. It is this infighting that allows the focus to be taken away from "we the people" being able to watch, and have control over government corruption and ineptitude that is running rampant in our leadership.

People should be working towards fixing problems, not creating them.

#25    Nxt2Hvn

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 06:08 PM

Geesh... you people sure do take things personally... I didn't mean to call anybody a LOSER.... so sorry to offend your delicate egos.

I was just trying to make light of it... I was actually interested in what you guys were saying... I just kind of make a joke out of everything.... I forget most people are not as easy going as I am .... this forum is all in fun... nobody will DIE or be demoted if you don't agree with certain things here.  But I will be sure to walk on egg shells from now on here  thumbsup.gif

And PsychicPenguin... what does being blonde have to do with anything?... you seem to be a person that bases everything on facts.. show me where being blonde makes someone unintelligent...

And Seraphina... awwww you called me pretty....  

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#26    Consummate Deist

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 06:17 PM

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Christian Bashing never gets old I guess


I've noticed through my study of history and archaeology that Christians seem to have done more bashing than being bashed (read the eyewitness accounts by the Christian Knights at the fall of Jerusalem to their forces during the Crusades - You know where the blood of the civilians ran ankle deep in the streets, how they slaughtered civilians until they were too tired to even lift their swords) and continue to bash to this day (I have been in Bosnian Moslem villages where everyone (including a 4 year old girl) was knelt down and shot behind the ear, just for being Moslems.  When we caught the Serbs that did it, they compared their actions to that of the Crusades and swore their Savior would prepare a place at his table for them because of it.....
QUOTE
my opinion is Eden location is in Iraq and the flood covered it up.


Too bad there was no Flood!  This is another fantastic claim that no YEC has yet been able to prove (and yes the burden of proof rests with you). original.gif  

Blashemy is an epithet bestowed by superstition on common sense.

#27    PsychicPenguin

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 06:31 PM

Back to topic. It doesn't really matter what you believe about Christianity. An equivalent question will be why the author of Genesis wrote about the Garden of Eden, what he had in his mind, and wether or not it was based on an actual location.

The Genesis said that it is supposed to be here on earth
But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.


So we can discard the common misconception that Garden of Eden is in heaven. We also have real places on earth to locate the position of the Garden according to the author. First of all he mentioned that it is located in the east. We don't really know where the author was, but tracing back the story, the Israelites was never been far from the Middle East. They started in Babylon, then Egypt, and finaly Judah.

Then we have four rivers mentioned:
1. Phison, going to the land of Havillah
2. Gihon, Ethiopia
3. Hiddekel, Assyria
4. Euphrates

Euphrates river is still flowing today in Iraq, thus the Garden of Eden must be located in the vicinity of the river. The land of Assyria is also located in present day Iraq, and the river flowing there is the Tigris river, which is still flowing today. Some bible translations also mention the third river to be Tigris.

Gihon is a missing river, but it is supposed to be the Nile as it is the only major river flowing through Ethiopia. Of course it created a problem as the Nile does not share the same source with Tigris and Euphrates.

The Phison is even more difficult to locate, as the land of Havillah is unknown. There is a river Phasis flowing from Armenia (close enough to the source of Euphrates) to the black sea which might be a consistent choice for this river.

Looking at the map, we have three rivers flowing that is quite consistent with Genesis account, and the Nile. There is another body of water in East Africa, which is the Red Sea. If we assume that in the past, the weather was much more wet, The Euphrates might be connected to the Jordan River, and the Jordan River would be much larger that it is today. The dead sea would rise and it would not be a dead end. Water might flow from the dead sea to the Gulf of Aqaba, then to the Red Sea to the land of Ethiopia, and finaly it reaches the Indian Ocean, as a river of Gihon.

Later the Noah Flood took place. A global flood that cover the peak of Mnt Everest did not actually happened. What happened is the rise of sea level due to the melting of polar ice, the same event that destroyed Atlantis. Because of this flood, the Gihon river valley became what we know today as the Red Sea and the Phison river became much shorter. The climate change made the valley of Galilee to be what it is today.

According to this analysis, the Garden of Eden must be somewhere in the Caucasus.

http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/meriv.htm

In this map the location of Tigris and Euphrates are shown. The Jordan river was shown as the one flowing from Syria to the red sea. Phasis is a short river flowing from Armenia to the Black Sea.


#28    PsychicPenguin

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 06:38 PM

Nxt2Hvn: Oops.. sorry if you are a real blonde.. it was meant to be a joke, you know wink2.gif  


#29    Nxt2Hvn

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 06:42 PM

QUOTE (PsychicPenguin @ Jan 27 2004, 05:38 PM)
Nxt2Hvn: Oops.. sorry if you are a real blonde.. it was meant to be a joke, you know wink2.gif

I know ... I Can TAKE a JOKE!!!  wink2.gif

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LOL  laugh.gif

I am blonde... check out the Rogues Gallery... i posted my pic this morning

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#30    Althalus

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 07:17 PM

I read somewhere that the garden of eden used to be in Iraq.

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