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More 'Big Bang' stuff


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#1    rideron

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Posted 13 December 2007 - 02:08 PM


If we assume that the concept of 'empty space' is a state of reality
And if we assume all reality, existance, and creation is contained within the Universe..
And if we assume the Universe is expanding..
What is it into which the Universe 'expands'?
Is there an already-existing state of existance beyond the edge of the expanding Universe?, or
is existance being 'created' at the frontier of the expanding Universe as it expands??




#2    Torgo

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Posted 17 December 2007 - 08:23 PM

rideron on Dec 13 2007, 09:08 AM, said:

If we assume that the concept of 'empty space' is a state of reality
And if we assume all reality, existance, and creation is contained within the Universe..
And if we assume the Universe is expanding..
What is it into which the Universe 'expands'?
Is there an already-existing state of existance beyond the edge of the expanding Universe?, or
is existance being 'created' at the frontier of the expanding Universe as it expands??

I would say that the concept is meaningless.  If the universe is infinite, then there is no edge to speak about.  If it isn't, it curves around and loops back on itself in all directions.

We really can't tell a thing about the full extent of the universe because we can only see so far because of the speed of light.  

When we talk about the expansion of the universe, we just mean that between any two given points the distance is constantly and slowly increasing.  For relatively small (galaxy cluster and under) objects gravity cancels this effect and things stay gravitationally bound but on large scales things move apart.  

It is hard to describe, but it seems to me that to talk about a physical "outside" to the universe is meaningless, when everything can just be described by a coordinate system slowly changing.


#3    courage_now

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 04:41 AM

The universe does have boundaries but they are expanding.

Think of a balloon expanding, at slightly slower rate as the initational force of the big bang.

Space itself is something, it is the absense of space to which you are referring to.  As this doesn't exist it shouldn't factor into your thinking.. see where i am going?

The universe does have edges because it does have a middle. That being, half way from 1 side to the other.







Matthew 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

Matthew 13:56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this [man] all these things?

Matthew 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.

#4    Torgo

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Posted 19 December 2007 - 09:37 AM

courage_now on Dec 17 2007, 11:41 PM, said:

The universe does have boundaries but they are expanding.

Think of a balloon expanding, at slightly slower rate as the initational force of the big bang.

Space itself is something, it is the absense of space to which you are referring to.  As this doesn't exist it shouldn't factor into your thinking.. see where i am going?

The universe does have edges because it does have a middle. That being, half way from 1 side to the other.


How do you know space has a middle?


#5    Sun Raven

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Posted 19 December 2007 - 04:23 PM

courage_now on Dec 18 2007, 05:41 AM, said:

The universe does have boundaries but they are expanding.

Think of a balloon expanding, at slightly slower rate as the initational force of the big bang.

Space itself is something, it is the absense of space to which you are referring to.  As this doesn't exist it shouldn't factor into your thinking.. see where i am going?

The universe does have edges because it does have a middle. That being, half way from 1 side to the other.



Quote

How do you know space has a middle?


The Universe is by definition, everything in existence, the universe doesn't have an edge or a middle. The universe IS that edge and that middle, it is everything you can see, feel, touch and taste.

Can there middle be the middle of the middle? Of course not, no such thing can exist. Can the edge be the edge of the edge? OF course not, the universe is everything, everything in existence. If the middle would be the middle of the middle then there wouldn't a middle because the middle is by defenition the center place of an area or object, there is no absolute middle of a middle because then there woudn't be a middle because if that object would be the middle itself then that object does not have a middle! Same with the edge, if the edge would be the edge of the edge then there woudn't be an edge because if that area is the edge itself then that area doesn't have an edge. It's a complicated concept.

That's why many scientist believe that the universe doesn't have a shape because a shape has an edge, actually to have a shape you must have an edge, no edge, no shape. But the universe doesn't have an edge.

Quote

If we assume that the concept of 'empty space' is a state of reality
And if we assume all reality, existance, and creation is contained within the Universe..
And if we assume the Universe is expanding..
What is it into which the Universe 'expands'?
Is there an already-existing state of existance beyond the edge of the expanding Universe?, or
is existance being 'created' at the frontier of the expanding Universe as it expands??


The universe doesn't 'contain' everything, the universe IS everything. The universe is suffering an expansion of itself, this expansion expands everything in existence, proportionally.

Of course there are other forces wich contradict this expansion and totally make it null in their presence, an example is Gravity, gravity is stronger than the force of expansion is most cases and so that is the source to matter acumulations (Galaxies, planets, nebulae, ect..) we have today.

Edited by Alex01, 19 December 2007 - 04:36 PM.

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