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Reason US went to War: to stop Evil Biology & Chem


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#1    DreamRebel

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Posted 28 January 2004 - 08:16 PM

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#2    Fluffybunny

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Posted 28 January 2004 - 08:24 PM

Yes, it is all rather scary in my opinion. It all reminds me of 1984...The US government is out of control and willing to lie to the world so that it can carry out whatever tasks it feels like doing at the time. The constitution means next to nothing to these people...

It is sad to see how far this country has devolved in such a short time.

Too many people on both sides of the spectrum have fallen into this mentality that a full one half of the country are the enemy for having different beliefs...in a country based on freedom of expression. It is this infighting that allows the focus to be taken away from "we the people" being able to watch, and have control over government corruption and ineptitude that is running rampant in our leadership.

People should be working towards fixing problems, not creating them.

#3    Aslan

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Posted 28 January 2004 - 08:34 PM

Although I am no fan of Mr Ashcroft, to be fair he doesn't actually say that biology and chemistry are 'evil'.

He says that the brand of biology and chemistry that Saddam was purportedly capable of using was 'evil'.


#4    Rakshasas

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Posted 28 January 2004 - 11:51 PM

   The thing is that Saddam would not have been able to use or get these weapons with the sanctions in place and inspections.So how much of a threat would he have been?? Is it ok to invade a country on the possibility that these weapons could be made in the distant future??Why is it ok in one place and not another and who decides?? The U.S. or the UN??  

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#5    joc

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Posted 29 January 2004 - 12:30 AM

QUOTE
Why is it ok in one place and not another and who decides?? The U.S. or the UN??


The UN apparently can't decide on anything substantial.  How many times can
you tell a rebellious child to 'please stop doing that', before a spanking becomes
necessary?

Besides, the UN wasn't attacked on 9/11 The U.S. was.  So as a matter of
self-defense........the U.S. gets to decide. original.gif

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#6    Fluffybunny

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Posted 29 January 2004 - 01:13 AM

QUOTE
Besides, the UN wasn't attacked on 9/11 The U.S. was. So as a matter of
self-defense........the U.S. gets to decide.


I actually agree with you in theory. Problem is that there was no link between Iraq and al queda. Seems that may have been...a misunderstanding...that didn't come out until after Iraq was in ruins(more ruins anyway)

Oopsie!, but a conviently time oopsie...our bad!

That, combined with the Weapons of Mass Destruction that Saddam doesn't seem to have make the US look really bad in the eyes of the rest of the world...

We are making the rest of the world a bit jumpy for good cause. That is great if you want to make everyone think that you are the tough kid on the block; bad if you would like to have good healthy relations with other countries. Something that we desperately need with our questionable economy.

As glad as I am that Saddam is in US custody, and out of power, it still doesn't make it right in my opinion. "Pre-Emptive Strikes" can cut both ways, and makes for a planet full of jumpy nations. We have a huge military and are powerful, and our willingness to jump into war is going to have long term effects on how our country is viewed.







Too many people on both sides of the spectrum have fallen into this mentality that a full one half of the country are the enemy for having different beliefs...in a country based on freedom of expression. It is this infighting that allows the focus to be taken away from "we the people" being able to watch, and have control over government corruption and ineptitude that is running rampant in our leadership.

People should be working towards fixing problems, not creating them.

#7    joc

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Posted 29 January 2004 - 02:29 AM

QUOTE
"Pre-Emptive Strikes" can cut both ways, and makes for a planet full of jumpy nations. We have a huge military and are powerful, and our willingness to jump into war is going to have long term effects on how our country is viewed.


I think though that it all has to be viewed through the eyes of
The Bush Doctrine:  If you are a terrorist, we will come after you.
If you harbor terrorists, we will come after you.

What the world thinks in the short run is, I think, unimportant.
History in the long run will judge everything and it really  depends ultimately
on wether we actually rid the world of evil terrorists....if that is even
possible.  



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#8    bathory

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Posted 29 January 2004 - 03:04 AM

QUOTE
The thing is that Saddam would not have been able to use or get these weapons with the sanctions in place and inspections.


ahem, that is a load of crap, the sanctions were only hurting the civilians because Saddam refused to help them out, and Saddam kept pissing the inspectors around.


#9    Rakshasas

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Posted 29 January 2004 - 12:41 PM

   So bathory where are these weapons then?? You know the ones that were supposed to be ready to fire at the rest of the world in fourty five minutes??

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#10    wunarmdscissor

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Posted 29 January 2004 - 01:37 PM

I want to just say firstly, I am just not sure whether we did the right thing invadng iraq.

There are just so many arguments for both sides i just cant decide which one to side with.

On a humanitarian level i believe gettin rid of that evil man was a great thing. On a political, legal and for the furute of world politics i do not believe it was a wise decision. Especially bypassing the UN, i believe bush and blair mad a grave mistake in doin that

QUOTE
Besides, the UN wasn't attacked on 9/11 The U.S. was. So as a matter of
self-defense........the U.S. gets to decide.


Joc, consistently you seem to be making statements which you dont seem to fully understand.

Iraq did not in fact attack American that terrible day, Alqueda did.

There is NO proof whatsoever that iraq had anything even in the slightest to do with it. Also bin laden hated saddam and wanted rid off him too, saddam was not running a strict moslem state, this meant bin laden did not idealogically support him and had indicated the overthrowing of his baathist regime.

so your childlike "we'll do whatever we want" attitude is exactly the reason the rest of the world takes in a deep breathe every time Bush talks about terrorism and his"axis of evil".

The problem is you dont seem to understand that although you do live in the most powerful country in the world that there are 6 billion people on this planet and only 260 million of them are american. How can you say you dont care what the rest of us think.That is a very insular and silly attitude to have.


What terrorists were they harbouring Joc?

I am a decently educated person who wont ever lower myself to "look through the eyes" of bush. He has shown himself do have inadequate knowledge of this planet to be in charge of such power.

I only hope the American people do the right thing and get rid of him at the next election thumbsup.gif



BAthory is dead right about the sanctions.

It was saddam that was starving his people not our sanctions. He and his regime lived a life of unmatched luxury while millions where dyin he squandered his subsidies (which were supposed to be used to give food and healthcare to the people) on luxurious palaces and subversive weapons research which whether he actually had the weapons or not he was researching.

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#11    joc

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Posted 29 January 2004 - 02:32 PM

QUOTE

Especially bypassing the UN, i believe bush and blair mad a grave mistake in doin that


We didn't bypass the UN, we gave them every opportunity to take action.  They simply refused.

QUOTE
Iraq did not in fact attack American that terrible day, Alqueda did.


I didn't say Iraq attacked us.  I said it was the US who was attacked, not the UN.

QUOTE
There  is NO proof whatsoever that iraq had anything even in the slightest to do with it.


There actually is proof that Iraqi high officials met with Al Queda leaders prior
to 9/11.

QUOTE
Also bin laden hated saddam and wanted rid off him too, saddam was not running a strict moslem state, this meant bin laden did not idealogically support him and had indicated the overthrowing of his baathist regime.


You say you are an intelligent guy, but do you seriously believe this?!  The notion
that Ben Laden was a devout Muslim is proposterous!  He used the religion of Islam
to accomplish his objectives.  His reasons for what he did changed with the wind.

QUOTE
How can you say you dont care what the rest of us think.That is a very insular and silly attitude to have.


It isn't that I don't care what you think (it is obvious that I do).  As President
Bush said in his State of the Union address, we will never ask the world's
permission to defend ourselves.  What the world thinks is inconsequential in
how we deal with defending ourselves.  History will judge us in the end.

QUOTE
What terrorists were they harbouring Joc?


Well, for one.  The Palestinian guerrilla leader who masterminded the 1985 hijacking of the Italian cruise ship Achille Lauro, was captured  in Baghdad by U.S. Special Operations troops.  It was either he or some other high ranking terrorist
who was captured in an Iraqi hospital having surgery.

QUOTE

I am a decently educated person who wont ever lower myself to "look through the eyes" of bush. He has shown himself do have inadequate knowledge of this planet to be in charge of such power.


*...shakes head as he walks away...*

QUOTE
It was saddam that was starving his people not our sanctions. He and his regime lived a life of unmatched luxury while millions where dyin he squandered his subsidies (which were supposed to be used to give food and healthcare to the people) on luxurious palaces and subversive weapons research which whether he actually had the weapons or not he was researching.


Exactly right!  And the food for oil program scam hosted by the UN was directly
responsible for that.







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#12    wunarmdscissor

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Posted 29 January 2004 - 02:55 PM

If you didnt say Iraq attacked you then whats the point in attacking iraq?

It is a widespread fact that bin laden for whatever reason wanted rid of saddam hussein whether it be religious or for oil to hold the west ransom what i said was true.

I think you'll find we did bypass the UN??????????

They didnt refuse to take action either, They just didnt take the action in the time frame that our leaders wanted. Who are we to say they were wrong?

How was America and the UK defending ourselves by attacking Iraq?

These are important questions.


I never at any point attempted to say that bin laden was a devout moslem, what are you talking about? I mean if your gonna argue with one of my points at least try to understand what i was saying 1st.

Why are you allowed an opinion on another country's leader yet when i comment on america's leader you act as if ive committed some sort of crime. Bush has been proven time and time again to have insuffciant knowledge of world politics never mind geography. Come on you must be able to admit that. He couldnt name the president of chechnya when he was trying to say that the russian offensive there was wrong!!


Ok so one terrorist that they found in a hospital constitutes invading a sovereign country ok thumbsup.gif

BTW we werent so keen to invade them in the 80's when this guy committed his crime, I wonder why?........ oh thats it because we were supplying iraq with weapons and training. The same weapons he used on the kurds.

Dont you understand that when america goes all over the world attcking countries whenever it feels like it that this affects the rest of us and that america has a responsibility to face up to the fact that theyre actions can cause harm to innocent people.

What does "history will judge us in the end mean"? How does this help validate what we did just now? Hitler and Himler may have said that at one point it doesnt mean what they did was right.( im not comparing blair and bush to those two BTW)


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#13    joc

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Posted 29 January 2004 - 03:14 PM

QUOTE
If you didnt say Iraq attacked you then whats the point in attacking iraq?


Okay I'm just going to take off the gloves here and say what needs to
be said...

...Iraq should have been taken out a long time ago!  Fact of the matter is
President Clinton was more interested in (removed) than in defending our
country.

It is a well known fact that Sadaam tried to assasinate Bush SR.  That is enough
right there to take him out.  Sadaam was once a "friend" but that all changed with time.   When he invaded Kuwait we should have taken him out.
It wasn't prudent to do so at the time.

Since the Gulf War he has shot at our airplanes on a daily basis.  Clinton didn't
have the balls to do anything about it.  Thank God Bush does.  

Don't buy into the media crapola campaign that Bush is a dolt.  He isn't.  He
does in fact possess an incredible memory.  Guys he flew with in the National
Guard were amazed at his memory with respect to flight plans and such.  The guy is a genius.

QUOTE
Ok so one terrorist that they found in a hospital constitutes invading a sovereign country ok 


Damn right!

QUOTE
Dont you understand that when america goes all over the world attcking countries whenever it feels like it that this affects the rest of us and that america has a responsibility to face up to the fact that theyre actions can cause harm to innocent people.


Don't you understand that this is all in the interest of self-defense?  And what countries are you talking about?!  Who else have we attacked?  The Faulklen Islands?  ahem

Lets face it.  The US is not an imperialist nation.  If we wanted we could take
over the entire world.  If we wanted the middle east oil,  we would just take it.
Starting with Kuwait.  We are DEFENDING OURSELVES! And together with your
country and the many, many others joining us....we will overcome terrorism...
and the world will be safer for it........and history will judge that we did the
right thing, not the wrong thing.
Thankyou  for listening......
.............................................off to work!

Edited by Aslan, 29 January 2004 - 03:18 PM.

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#14    wunarmdscissor

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Posted 29 January 2004 - 03:50 PM

LOL am sory but describing george bush (a man who was out-witted by a pretsel) as a genious is just priceless.

LOL comparing the war in iraq with our war against  Argentina over the FALKLAND ISLANDS is hilarious too. Come on argentina attacked our sovereign land and we fought back wit a country attempting to invade our land.


LOL am sure america could just waltz into China and russia and for that matter the rest of the world and we would all just put our hands up and beg for mercy.

Im gonna need to do some research but as with britain am sure america will be harbouring people taht other countries describe as terrorists. If true are you gonna invade yourselves.

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#15    Fluffybunny

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Posted 29 January 2004 - 05:33 PM

QUOTE (joc @ Jan 29 2004, 06:32 AM)
...Iraq should have been taken out a long time ago! Fact of the matter is President Clinton was more interested in (removed) than in defending our country.

Oh joc...I was holding out hope for you... tongue.gif

QUOTE
We didn't bypass the UN, we gave them every opportunity to take action.  They simply refused.


We didn't give them every opportunity. Bush waited as long as he wanted to, then he bypassed the UN resolutions.

QUOTE
There actually is proof that Iraqi high officials met with Al Queda leaders prior to 9/11.


Do you have a link to this proof? I'd love to see it.

QUOTE
As President Bush said in his State of the Union address, we will never ask the world's permission to defend ourselves.  What the world thinks is inconsequential in how we deal with defending ourselves. 


How were we defending ourselves joc? really, I'd love to know?

How was iraq an imminent threat to our safety? With their WMD? The ones we were so sure about? Sure enough to go to war and kill thousands of people, yet we can't find a trace of the weapons we were so sure about?

Maybe it was all of the terrorist links and terrorists that they were harboring? Oops, that was a mistake/lie too.

joc, I don't think you understand that we forced a war on another country for reasons that ended up being untrue (at the best), or downright lies (at the worst).
All of our "allies"(I use the term loosely as a majority never sent any troops) agreed to support us based on the "evidence" that Bush spewed to the world. On our countries word. Do you understand that? Being from Texas I think you do.

Our word ended up being lies and untruths.

It is obvious by the tone of your posts that the rest of the world doesn't seem to mean much to you, but this is quickly becomming a world economy.

We will crumble like the last days of Rome if we do not learn how to play well with others.

Our economy cannot survive years of world investors walking away from us like they have in the past couple of years. As a country we look like a bunch of trigger happy zealots, and the world does not trust us like they once did. Our economy shows those signs today, and if Bush gets re-elected, it will only get worse. Have you seen what the dollar is worth on the market lately? How about the defecit? Half a trillion dollars sound familiar?

Bush made a horrible mistake, and every US citizen will pay for it in one way or another.

History will judge us in the end.

The sad part is that it already has started to judge us. It isn't a pretty judgement.

Too many people on both sides of the spectrum have fallen into this mentality that a full one half of the country are the enemy for having different beliefs...in a country based on freedom of expression. It is this infighting that allows the focus to be taken away from "we the people" being able to watch, and have control over government corruption and ineptitude that is running rampant in our leadership.

People should be working towards fixing problems, not creating them.




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