Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


- - - - -

man denied courthouse entry -wearing kirpan


  • Please log in to reply
82 replies to this topic

#16    swtp

swtp

    Alien Abducter

  • Member
  • 4,702 posts
  • Joined:13 May 2007
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:British Columbia


  • It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err.

Posted 15 January 2008 - 08:23 PM

Stardrive on Jan 15 2008, 12:01 PM, said:

It's the law for good reason. He needs to figure out for himself which is more important. Obeying the law, or his dagger. If his dagger is more important to him than the laws of the country he resides, then he has no business being there and needs to return home.

One cannot superimpose their indiginous customs and laws on a host country.

I agree! And i,m sure there are times when they remove the knife, as i,m pretty sure they wouldn,t wear it to bathe or go to bed etc... So removing it to go into a court of law should be concidered an acceptable time to remove it also! It,s not like anyone asked him to remove it out of disrespect, only asked in order to respect our laws! If we want to live togeather then we all need to give and take a bit, with respect to eachother of course!


#17    ravergirl

ravergirl

    Government Agent

  • Member
  • 3,850 posts
  • Joined:05 Dec 2007
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:texas

  • OPEN your EYES

Posted 15 January 2008 - 08:25 PM

I think that he should understand the laws regarding objects that could be considered weapons being in court rooms. Is his ceremonial knife more important than upholding the integrety of the situation. No one is saying he would use it in a violent way, but this is a case where someone died and probably some heft manslaughter charge is on the line and having a knife in the vacinity of a desperate person is not smart. That is why they also don't allow glass in the courtroom.

I am theNON-SEQUITUR-ER

#18    Tiggs

Tiggs

    Relax. It's only me.

  • 9,133 posts
  • Joined:30 Jan 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Orange County, California

  • Universe Service Pack 2 still needs patching.

Posted 15 January 2008 - 08:25 PM

SnakeProphet on Jan 15 2008, 07:49 PM, said:

Uhh, no it isn't. Giving up that knife may not be much to you, but it may be much to him, and it obviously is. Instead they could have easily escorted him in there, and yet they didn't. Sure it's law, but that's obviously a reason why that law is flawed.

Hmmmm. Is it as flawed as the law that doesn't allow him to carry his kirpan on Airplanes, too?


#19    glorybebe

glorybebe

    Non-Corporeal Being

  • Member
  • 8,720 posts
  • Joined:24 Feb 2007
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Canada

Posted 15 January 2008 - 08:27 PM

swtp on Jan 15 2008, 12:23 PM, said:

I agree! And i,m sure there are times when they remove the knife, as i,m pretty sure they wouldn,t wear it to bathe or go to bed etc... So removing it to go into a court of law should be concidered an acceptable time to remove it also! It,s not like anyone asked him to remove it out of disrespect, only asked in order to respect our laws! If we want to live togeather then we all need to give and take a bit, with respect to eachother of course!


Exactly, great post, SWTP!

Save the Earth! It's the only planet with chocolate!

#20    SnakeProphet

SnakeProphet

    My dearest serpent

  • Member
  • 2,457 posts
  • Joined:01 Apr 2005
  • Gender:Male

Posted 15 January 2008 - 08:59 PM

Quote

Just a question, SnakeProphet, are you Sikh? If you are, could you give us more in depth info as to the ideology to the kirpan?


No, I'm not. The kirpan is a symbol of your duty to protect and stand up for people in need.



Quote

It's the law for good reason. He needs to figure out for himself which is more important. Obeying the law, or his dagger. If his dagger is more important to him than the laws of the country he resides, then he has no business being there and needs to return home.


You think laws are infallible? If a law doesn't cut it, you make a new one, laws aren't sacrosanct.

Quote

One cannot superimpose their indiginous customs and laws on a host country.


And this is exactly what this isn't about, but I guess that doesn't concern your xenophobic attitude. You're trying to fit this into a profile here, but it doesn't work that way. I don't see any mention of him being an immigrant, yet you just assumed he is. Just spit it out already, I tire of people walking on egg-shells, to soothe their own conscience.


Quote

It doesn't matter what it means to him. We can't make laws for every little belief out there and extra manpower shouldn't be diverted to escort him so this guy can testify in a case. Nobody is telling him what he can wear or do in his private life but a federal building is a federal building. Nobody else would be allowed to wear a knife an nor should he. It's that simple. Being of some religion doesn't and shouldn't give you rights nobody else has. If he doesn't like it he can go to a country where it's not a problem.


Or he can stay there and work towards a law that allows him to fulfill his duty as a citizen of that country. Ever heard of something called equality? Just because he's in a minority, doesn't mean you can simply disregard what he has to say.
I doubt there'd be any extra manpower necessary.


Quote

Hmmmm. Is it as flawed as the law that doesn't allow him to carry his kirpan on Airplanes, too?


And where do you think is that law flawed? How am I supposed to answer that question, if you don't specify, what exactly you're talking about here.





Posted Image


Someone is gonna die if you listen to me.


I try to salvage thoughts long gone,
I am the mountain that dreams on.

I am the sea that longs for freedom.
lashing out towards my chains.

#21    capeo

capeo

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,746 posts
  • Joined:26 Jan 2006
  • Location:Rhode Island

  • Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.
    Aldous Huxley, "Proper Studies", 1927

Posted 15 January 2008 - 09:39 PM

SnakeProphet on Jan 15 2008, 03:59 PM, said:

Or he can stay there and work towards a law that allows him to fulfill his duty as a citizen of that country. Ever heard of something called equality? Just because he's in a minority, doesn't mean you can simply disregard what he has to say.
I doubt there'd be any extra manpower necessary.


Equality is not making exception for every individual it is making laws that apply equally to everybody, race, religion or anything else not withstanding.  The law would be discriminitory if one portion of the population was able to bring weapons into a courtroom while the rest wasn't.

"Come down off the cross, we could use the wood." - Tom Waits

#22    glorybebe

glorybebe

    Non-Corporeal Being

  • Member
  • 8,720 posts
  • Joined:24 Feb 2007
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Canada

Posted 15 January 2008 - 09:49 PM

capeo on Jan 15 2008, 01:39 PM, said:

Equality is not making exception for every individual it is making laws that apply equally to everybody, race, religion or anything else not withstanding.  The law would be discriminitory if one portion of the population was able to bring weapons into a courtroom while the rest wasn't.


Well, that is a huge consideration-where do you draw the line? just because it is your religious or cultural belief does not make it OK.  Other wise infanticide would be rampant because of the attitude that only male children count ( with some cultures)....Oh, the laws would be in total chaos, it would be horrible!  We need to have laws that work for the majority of people.  And the people who move here, from any country need to know the laws and respect them, otherwise, immigrate elsewhere.  When my grandparents came here, they had to learn English, and work very very hard to support their children.  They didn't think the country should change just for them.

Save the Earth! It's the only planet with chocolate!

#23    capeo

capeo

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,746 posts
  • Joined:26 Jan 2006
  • Location:Rhode Island

  • Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.
    Aldous Huxley, "Proper Studies", 1927

Posted 15 January 2008 - 09:58 PM

glorybebe on Jan 15 2008, 04:49 PM, said:

Well, that is a huge consideration-where do you draw the line? just because it is your religious or cultural belief does not make it OK.  Other wise infanticide would be rampant because of the attitude that only male children count ( with some cultures)....Oh, the laws would be in total chaos, it would be horrible!  We need to have laws that work for the majority of people.  And the people who move here, from any country need to know the laws and respect them, otherwise, immigrate elsewhere.  When my grandparents came here, they had to learn English, and work very very hard to support their children.  They didn't think the country should change just for them.


I agree.  That's what I was saying.  I was just using a counter point to try to display that it isn't being discriminitory not letting this guy into a courtroom with a knife.

"Come down off the cross, we could use the wood." - Tom Waits

#24    SnakeProphet

SnakeProphet

    My dearest serpent

  • Member
  • 2,457 posts
  • Joined:01 Apr 2005
  • Gender:Male

Posted 15 January 2008 - 09:58 PM

Quote

Equality is not making exception for every individual it is making laws that apply equally to everybody, race, religion or anything else not withstanding. The law would be discriminitory if one portion of the population was able to bring weapons into a courtroom while the rest wasn't.


And? What does that have to do with anything? I don't think anyone cares what equality doesn't mean. What's your point?

Posted Image


Someone is gonna die if you listen to me.


I try to salvage thoughts long gone,
I am the mountain that dreams on.

I am the sea that longs for freedom.
lashing out towards my chains.

#25    capeo

capeo

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,746 posts
  • Joined:26 Jan 2006
  • Location:Rhode Island

  • Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.
    Aldous Huxley, "Proper Studies", 1927

Posted 15 January 2008 - 10:02 PM

SnakeProphet on Jan 15 2008, 04:58 PM, said:

And? What does that have to do with anything? I don't think anyone cares what equality doesn't mean. What's your point?


You asked me if I ever heard of equality.  The better question then would be, what was your point, no?

"Come down off the cross, we could use the wood." - Tom Waits

#26    ravergirl

ravergirl

    Government Agent

  • Member
  • 3,850 posts
  • Joined:05 Dec 2007
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:texas

  • OPEN your EYES

Posted 15 January 2008 - 10:10 PM

Snake Prophet. What is your view in this discussion. Are you playing devils advocate?
There are laws in place. This mans religion is understood and taken into account and if wearing the knife is a symbol of duty to protect people in need, he should be more than willing to put his symbol down for an hour in order to actively stand up for the person that was killed in this car crash.

I am theNON-SEQUITUR-ER

#27    hetrodoxly

hetrodoxly

    Alien Abducter

  • Member
  • 4,955 posts
  • Joined:29 May 2006

Posted 15 January 2008 - 10:41 PM

Just another case of an Asian stamping his feet, they don't even have to wear the turban.

Thank god i'm an athiest.

Veni, vidi, Vertigo, i came i saw i couldn't get down.
Hetrodoxly.

#28    Stardrive

Stardrive

    Resident Bass Guitarist

  • Member
  • 3,220 posts
  • Joined:15 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Virginia

Posted 15 January 2008 - 11:31 PM

SnakeProphet on Jan 15 2008, 03:59 PM, said:

You think laws are infallible? If a law doesn't cut it, you make a new one, laws aren't sacrosanct.

Laws are put into place for good reason, but what you are suggesting is making special laws for special people. Aint gonna happen.

SnakeProphet on Jan 15 2008, 03:59 PM, said:

And this is exactly what this isn't about, but I guess that doesn't concern your xenophobic attitude. You're trying to fit this into a profile here, but it doesn't work that way. I don't see any mention of him being an immigrant, yet you just assumed he is.

Unless I missed hearing about all Canadians carrying kirpans, [which I guess is possible here in hillbilly land] it's exactly what it's about. No advanced math skills needed to extrapolate the circumstances surrounding this incident. The reporter may not come out and say it, but it is implied.

I may be to poor to ever visit another country, but saying I'm xenophobic is a bit of an exaggeration. It is possible your stereotyping me in an attempt to inspire me to reciprocate in kind.

SnakeProphet on Jan 15 2008, 03:59 PM, said:

Just spit it out already, I tire of people walking on egg-shells, to soothe their own conscience.

I'm not one to tip-toe around. In fact, in a way this is what your saying: The law should tip-toe and make special considerations for him because he is a minority. My next approach will be to turn the tables [put the shoe on the other foot].

Posted Image

#29    Atheist God

Atheist God

    Alien Abducter

  • Member
  • 5,438 posts
  • Joined:10 Jul 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Winnipeg, Canadistan

  • At war with the evil Drug Enforcement Agency for over a decade!

Posted 16 January 2008 - 12:33 AM

SnakeProphet on Jan 15 2008, 01:49 PM, said:

Uhh, no it isn't. Giving up that knife may not be much to you, but it may be much to him, and it obviously is. Instead they could have easily escorted him in there, and yet they didn't. Sure it's law, but that's obviously a reason why that law is flawed.


They won't change the law despite the complaints of minorities because the rest of the country would never stand for it.

Fact is the current law is there to ensure the safety of those within the court room, religious or not those daggers are weapons and weapons are banned from the inside of a courtroom. This was the law before we started taking droves of immigrants in and it will be despite complaints from the very few.

The only thing that would make this law flawed is to start letting people take weapons into a room full of criminals.... It's my religion to carry a shot gun on my back at all times and my machete strapped to my belt at all times... Such a law just doesn't work you can't have a law that excludes all from one group to a rule.

Posted Image

A site I write my own articles. sw-gm check em out.

#30    Tiggs

Tiggs

    Relax. It's only me.

  • 9,133 posts
  • Joined:30 Jan 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Orange County, California

  • Universe Service Pack 2 still needs patching.

Posted 16 January 2008 - 10:45 AM

SnakeProphet on Jan 15 2008, 08:59 PM, said:

And where do you think is that law flawed? How am I supposed to answer that question, if you don't specify, what exactly you're talking about here.

Okay - in simple terms - if you make an exception for carrying a weapon in one restricted place, why not all of them, if you believe it's his religious right to do so?

Such as on an airplane, for example.

I've yet to see groups of sikhs protesting at airports that their religious freedoms are being oppressed because they're not allowed to carry their Kirpan's on board.

Taking a weapon into a courtroom, even escorted, is a really bad idea. There are several recorded cases of weapons being used within them prior to weapon scanning becoming the norm. There's a reason that the Witness Protection Program exists, after all.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users