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man denied courthouse entry -wearing kirpan


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#61    hetrodoxly

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 10:26 PM

Tiggs on Jan 16 2008, 10:09 PM, said:

Like any knife. I take it that you've heard of a shank. Did you read any of the links illustrating the use of knives in courtrooms that I provided in my last post?

As an aside - I have absolutely no idea how you could possibly think that this is a racist issue. Knives in a Courtroom are just a really bad idea. Race, Religion, Height, Weight, Gender, Age, Hair colour, Eye Colour, whether someone prefers drinking Coke or Pepsi etc. doesn't enter into the equation.

I agree entirely.
Why not let every race of people have there own law? i.e. Muslims could have Sharia law, hang on what if an atheist shags a Muslim? do they stone them to death or throw a party, the PC fascist are the first to call for the separation of religion and country, i forgot this guys a Sikh.

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#62    Papaver

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 11:16 PM

SnakeProphet on Jan 16 2008, 08:03 PM, said:

It doesn't matter because that's a whole different subject. What you are discussing is why one is a religious symbol, and not the other.


But for practical purposes, weapons in a courtroom, there is no difference.

Change my analogy to a non-religious guy with a knife wanting to go into the court with it if it makes this any easier for you.

Why should the Sikh be allowed and not me for instance?

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#63    Kevin A.

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 11:50 PM

SnakeProphet on Jan 16 2008, 03:03 PM, said:

It doesn't matter because that's a whole different subject. What you are discussing is why one is a religious symbol, and not the other. You see, right now, I don't care why the kirpan is a religious symbol. For this discussion, it is only relevant that it is one. If you want my personal opinion? I think a gun is not and never will be a religious symbol, because gun-toting idiots will never have the cerebral capacity to form a valid religion, hence eliminating the chance of it ever being a religious symbol. Religion, and religious symbol, are legal terms, they aren't just an arbitrary definition, like you seem to believe. So if you want to know why those two aren't comparable, look at the legal definition of it, and try to understand how a gun doesn't fit this definition.
That is but one of the reasons, why you're "comparison" doesn't belong in here, I think you don't want to know all the others.


You are wrong. Completely wrong that is. Now that that is out of the way let me explain.

This mans dagger, however ceremonial or symbolic is still a functional weapon. Dull the edge, blunt the point, "wire" the thing in the sheath I dont care it is still a weapon. A weapon that could be used against a guard to take his gun away or injure a witness enough to twist their testimony. Weapons are barred from courtrooms and other places where they just do not need to be. It is a functional weapon in the hands of an unknown citizen entering a courtroom. Simple math here. Him not being allowed to carry it into the courtroom is the right call.

Now for your little rant about guns and us gun toting idiots. From what I have read here you have no right to call someone exercising their right to bear arms an idiot with limited cerebral capacity. Just because YOU dont LIKE guns or cant see ANY use for them does not mean law abiding citizens across the world DO.  Please, take a moment and explain why you see gun owners as these limited mental capacity idiots. Please? I would love to hear this.

You fail the see the similarity between this mans dagger and another mans gun. Look at it like this this mans believes the dagger is a symbol of his religion and is somehow related to a god. Agree? Now I as a citizen exercise my "GOD GIVEN" right to keep and bear arms. I was taught the 4 rules of firearms safety before being taught any religion or commandments. Putting on my daily carry gear of firearm, extra magazine, knife, multitool and flashlight haa become a ritual for me. When I do it I silently say a prayer to the universe that I do not have to use any of them that day and all will remain holstered forever.

This man is exercising his religious rights. Exercising my rights have become my religion. I am wrong and he is not yet death can come from both of our symbols? My gear gets left in the car and he gets to keep his? Strange.....

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#64    Gustavo

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 11:56 PM

I live in the western US in an area with many Sikhs. They are for the most part farmers around here. They wear turbines on their heads. They are most often seen around town in levis and plaid shirts. I have never in all my years interacting with them, seen a dagger being worn. There is no way they are wearing it under their levis. But I bet they all have pocket knives just like all the other farmers around here. They are respectful and usually friendly just like most people around here. They have a big temple or church or whatever and they are obviously a tight group. The guy wanting to go into court with his dagger was simply trying to push the system just like the Muslim woman that wanted her drivers license picture to be taken with her burka covering her face... so you who stick up for that silly behaviour in the name of religious freedom are naive, IMO.


#65    InHuman

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 12:05 AM

Snake, you are not Sikh, you aren't speaking for everyone.

Most have no problem with them, as an Indo-canadian I had many sikh friends growing up, some wore the kirpan at school, most didn't (although they had the turban and everything else, the kirpan does not need to be on their person at all times).

hetrodoxly on Jan 15 2008, 02:41 PM, said:

Just another case of an Asian stamping his feet, they don't even have to wear the turban.


Say what?

Edited by InHuman, 17 January 2008 - 12:07 AM.

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#66    glorybebe

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 12:22 AM

InHuman on Jan 16 2008, 04:05 PM, said:

Snake, you are not Sikh, you aren't speaking for everyone.

Most have no problem with them, as an Indo-canadian I had many sikh friends growing up, some wore the kirpan at school, most didn't (although they had the turban and everything else, the kirpan does not need to be on their person at all times).



Say what?


See, when I was in college, there was a large Sikh community there.  And I never once saw a kirpan on a student.  I had a friend who told me a lot about her heritage, and was quite proud to be Canadian, and didn't expect preferential treatment.  And not one ESL student wore a kirpan there, either.

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#67    The Unseen

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 12:32 AM

glorybebe on Jan 15 2008, 05:33 PM, said:

A Sikh man says his religious Charter rights were violated when he was not allowed to take his ceremonial dagger into the Calgary courthouse.

Tejinder Sidhu, 25, was summoned to court by subpoena to testify as a witness to a fatal car accident Monday.

Sidhu was stopped at the airport-style security screening, which greets all visitors to the Calgary Courts Centre that opened last fall. An Alberta sheriff told him he would have to leave his kirpan at security or he couldn't enter the building.

'I don't feel that I should be asked to remove it — especially being a witness to a case.'
— Tejinder SidhuBaptized orthodox Sikh men carry the small ceremonial dagger under their clothes as a symbol of their religious beliefs.

Sidhu offered to be escorted in to testify if he could keep his kirpan, but that was rejected.

"I don't feel that I should be asked to remove it — especially being a witness to a case — I'm being basically denied my civil duty or my civil right … to testify in court," Sidhu told CBC News.

A Sikh man says his religious Charter rights were violated when he was not allowed to take his ceremonial dagger into the Calgary courthouse.

Tejinder Sidhu, 25, was summoned to court by subpoena to testify as a witness to a fatal car accident Monday.

Sidhu was stopped at the airport-style security screening, which greets all visitors to the Calgary Courts Centre that opened last fall. An Alberta sheriff told him he would have to leave his kirpan at security or he couldn't enter the building.

'I don't feel that I should be asked to remove it — especially being a witness to a case.'
— Tejinder SidhuBaptized orthodox Sikh men carry the small ceremonial dagger under their clothes as a symbol of their religious beliefs.

Sidhu offered to be escorted in to testify if he could keep his kirpan, but that was rejected.

"I don't feel that I should be asked to remove it — especially being a witness to a case — I'm being basically denied my civil duty or my civil right … to testify in court," Sidhu told CBC News.

Continue Article

"So after basically debating for about five, 10 minutes, basically, I just left the courthouse and was unable to fulfill my civic right or my civic duty."

Sidhu said he asked the officer to pass on to the judge that he wanted to testify but couldn't get in because of the security requirement.

Andy Weiler, spokesman for the Alberta solicitor general's office, which oversees courthouse security, said kirpans are on the list of items banned from Alberta courthouses.

But Weiler said the department will review the incident and examine how other jurisdictions in Canada handle the issue.

more

A knife is a knife is a knife.  I don't think they should be allowed to wear these things.  If it goes against the laws set before you move to our country, then you should respect our laws.  Besides, what if someone else grabbed it and used it for against either the wearer or another person?

Yes, I too carry a 45 for religious reasons,to protect my self from those who wear kirpans,also it holds my pants up.


#68    The Unseen

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 12:41 AM

glorybebe on Jan 15 2008, 06:52 PM, said:

I lived around a large Sikh community.  They wore their beautiful clothes and were really, really nice people. I really liked everyone I met.  And not one of them wore their daggers out of respect for the community.  I don't like the idea of ANYONE wearing a dagger, have you seen the size of those things?  Granted, they are beautiful and really interesting to look at, but I don't want to see anyone with a weapon on them but the police.

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Seems to me they carry those things because its how they were brought up,corse I carry a .45 but I dont try to go into Court buildings with it,Just common sence,I didnt know we had Sikh communities,Guess everything is still seperated ya know,Blacks having their part of a neighborhood,whites having neighborhood,Hispanics with their and Sikh's having theirs too.


#69    Atheist God

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 02:06 AM

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“I like learning French,” he told a press conference following the Court’s judgment. “But this affair prevented me from doing so. Now that we have won this case, the young [Sikhs] like me will have no further problems. They will be able to learn French.”


This was taken from an article a few pages back...

Anywho he could always learn French and the only thing he would have had to do was not take a weapon to school.

I can understand people who wear crosses or wearing turbans etc but a dagger (big ass knife)? Sorry but if thats the case then parents of non Sikh children should let their kids take concealed weapons in school to protect themselves from a minority who is allowed to carry weapons religious or not.

Fact is allowing weapons regardless of religion will lead to problems, I bet that judge will say oops when some Sikh kid ends up plunging his dagger into another students heart Theo Van Gough style.

If you want to live here you follow the rules one of these rules is no weapons in courtrooms.

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#70    InHuman

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 03:49 AM

^^^^

The blade is sheathed and locked and can't be open by a child.

They are more ceremonial then anything.

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#71    Atheist God

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 06:34 AM

InHuman on Jan 16 2008, 09:49 PM, said:

^^^^

The blade is sheathed and locked and can't be open by a child.

They are more ceremonial then anything.


Yeah and for some it's ceremonial to stab it in the heart of an infidel....

Fact is it wont just be small kids carrying these to school what about high school students? Adults? and so on...

It's not discriminatory to have laws prohibiting concealed weapons in public places especially schools and courtrooms and while I'm sure 90% of those who carry a kirpan would never use it there is that percentage and that chance that someone with anger management issues or an extreme view of things would, could, have and eventually will again.

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#72    MissMelsWell

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 08:07 AM

People of certain religions have in the past been afforded different rights in courts based on their faith.

Mine was. Is today. I legally do not have to swear an oath to tell the truth in a court room. Although, that being said, recently, that same right extends to all people if you know how to word a legitimate affirmation. It's relatively recent that this practice extends beyond a slim few christian sects.

As far as the Sikah and his Kirpan goes, well, I have to side with the officer on this one. It's not because they're worried he will use it as a weapon (sikah are by in large very peaceful) it's that someone else could get it and use it. Courts are full of dangerous people, cunning cons, and violence... the risk outweighs the spiritual benefit.

Can you imagine the mayhem if all Sikha's were allowed their Kirpans in the courthouse? All a crazed and ticked off defendant in a case would have to do is lie in wait until the Sikah went to the restroom, jump him, steal his ceremonial knife then the lunatic could go after his ex-wife in the lobby who just took him to the cleaners for alimony and child support. It's a simple explanation, but this scenario is why we can't have nice indian sikah's wandering around with daggers in court houses.

I mean, you wouldn't allow a Shinto monk into a court house with his ceremonial katana! You wouln't allow a wiccan into the court house with her ceremonial atheme. You simply can't do that, it's dangrous to both the wearer and the other people in the court house. It's not an anti-religion thing, it's a public safety issue.

Edited by MissMelsWell, 17 January 2008 - 08:15 AM.

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#73    Atheist God

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 08:39 AM

MissMelsWell on Jan 17 2008, 02:07 AM, said:

People of certain religions have in the past been afforded different rights in courts based on their faith.

Mine was. Is today. I legally do not have to swear an oath to tell the truth in a court room. Although, that being said, recently, that same right extends to all people if you know how to word a legitimate affirmation. It's relatively recent that this practice extends beyond a slim few christian sects.

As far as the Sikah and his Kirpan goes, well, I have to side with the officer on this one. It's not because they're worried he will use it as a weapon (sikah are by in large very peaceful) it's that someone else could get it and use it. Courts are full of dangerous people, cunning cons, and violence... the risk outweighs the spiritual benefit.

Can you imagine the mayhem if all Sikha's were allowed their Kirpans in the courthouse? All a crazed and ticked off defendant in a case would have to do is lie in wait until the Sikah went to the restroom, jump him, steal his ceremonial knife then the lunatic could go after his ex-wife in the lobby who just took him to the cleaners for alimony and child support. It's a simple explanation, but this scenario is why we can't have nice indian sikah's wandering around with daggers in court houses.

I mean, you wouldn't allow a Shinto monk into a court house with his ceremonial katana! You wouln't allow a wiccan into the court house with her ceremonial atheme. You simply can't do that, it's dangrous to both the wearer and the other people in the court house. It's not an anti-religion thing, it's a public safety issue.


Exactly if I am in a court room i don't need someone coming at me with a knife religious or not.

Your free to express yourself... hell I even supported them when they wanted to wear turbans in the RCMP but when expression becomes a potential hazard then there is need for some sensibility.

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#74    MissMelsWell

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 09:04 AM

AtheistGod on Jan 17 2008, 12:39 AM, said:

Exactly if I am in a court room i don't need someone coming at me with a knife religious or not.

Your free to express yourself... hell I even supported them when they wanted to wear turbans in the RCMP but when expression becomes a potential hazard then there is need for some sensibility.


I'd support the wearing their turbans in the RCMP too (many many sikh are former military men, they make really good peace officers) mostly because they never cut their hair so it's VERY long and they're unlikely to cut it for religious reasons, their turbans keep it under control. It would be a shame to turn them down because they wouldn't cut their hair considering they generally do make very good police officers.

But weapons in court rooms where some of society's most deviant members are ever present, along with other generally good people who are running emotionally amok, is just a bad idea for anyone (except trained and registered law enforcement) to take any kind of weapon or potential weapon into a courthouse.

I work with a ton of Sikh's... I have no idea if they carry their Kirpan's with them at work, they probably do, but it's unlikely that a C# programmer is going to go ballistic and start slashing people. I guess we probably have a don't ask don't tell policy for our office.

I agree with you on this one AtheistGod ... 100%.

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#75    hetrodoxly

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 07:05 PM

Gustavo on Jan 16 2008, 11:56 PM, said:

I live in the western US in an area with many Sikhs. They are for the most part farmers around here. They wear turbines on their heads.

Mobile power plants, that's very clever grin2.gif

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