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I created a new world religion


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#136    IronGhost

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Posted 25 March 2008 - 02:06 PM

SoCrazes on Mar 25 2008, 02:27 AM, said:

I don't hate you and actually think you're a good person.  I think many are surprisingly upset that such an educated, intelligent, and caring person such as yourself could resort to deception for monetary gain.  Maybe they fear if you could fall for worshipping mammon, maybe they could too?!


No fear there -- certaintly, I do not worship Mammon.  That's obvious.


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#137    SoCrazes

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Posted 25 March 2008 - 02:11 PM

IronGhost on Mar 25 2008, 02:06 PM, said:

No fear there -- certaintly, I do not worship Mammon.  That's obvious.

If you did what you say you did, then you deceived others for worldly gain.  Is this not the worship of mammon?



"The unexamined life is not worth living." - Socrates

#138    IronGhost

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Posted 25 March 2008 - 02:40 PM

SoCrazes on Mar 25 2008, 02:11 PM, said:

If you did what you say you did, then you deceived others for worldly gain.  Is this not the worship of mammon?


First, I deceived no one.  That's also obvious.  It's more than obvious.

Anyone is free to make there own decision as to wether they want to practice my new religion, or not.  Leaving people with total freedom of choice, and creating a religion which empowers every individual to create his or her own destiny and reality, and which requires them to give no money to anyone  is hardly deception, which is more than can be said of most other religions.

The Catholic Church has real estate holding in the U.S. alone that are worth an estimated $100 billion.  Why don't you accuse them of deceit and "worshipping mammon"? They also require that their members donoate 10% of their income to the Church.

My new religion owns no real estate, and no one is required to give money to anyone, much less 10% of their income.

Second, if I "worship mammon" as you say, then why did I spend two years earning zero income working as a volunteer to help homeless people?

In the early 1990s, I was earning about $45,000 a year as a college professor and freelance writer.  I gave up this income to work for two years as a VISTA Volunteer. The U.S. VISTA program is the domestic version of the Peace Corps.  I lived and worked an an inner city Mission, ate in the soup line with the poor people, slept on a lumpy cot, and the occasional train car, for two years.

I gave up about $90,000 in income over that 2-year period.  

How many others here have turned away $90,000?  I did.  

Hardly the pattern of a person who worships mammon, as I'm sure you would agree.

Edited by IronGhost, 25 March 2008 - 02:41 PM.


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#139    Mbyte

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Posted 25 March 2008 - 04:35 PM

IronGhost on Mar 25 2008, 02:40 PM, said:

Anyone is free to make there own decision as to wether they want to practice my new religion, or not. Leaving people with total freedom of choice, and creating a religion which empowers every individual to create his or her own destiny and reality, and which requires them to give no money to anyone  is hardly deception, which is more than can be said of most other religions.


You don't offer them the truth. You don't make any claims about truth. Is there truth? Does it exist in your mentality?

They are free to either practice or not to practice the religion. They are free to not to practice a fabricated religion and practice a fabricated religion. Are you not adding to the confusion of the pursuit of truth sense your raligion is bullsh**?

Maybe the religion does lead to the search for truth but then your bullsh** religion isen't bullsh**. You could say everything we have thought is on a foundation of bullsh** but for convinience it would be better not to mention that it's bullsh** at all. This all depends if the practice of the religion it's self means anything or leads to something of value.

Edited by Mbyte, 25 March 2008 - 04:37 PM.

"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance."

#140    IronGhost

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Posted 25 March 2008 - 04:43 PM

Mbyte on Mar 25 2008, 05:35 PM, said:

You don't offer them the truth. You don't make any claims about truth. Is there truth? Does it exist in your mentality?

They are free to either practice or not to practice the religion. They are free to not to practice a fabricated religion and practice a fabricated religion. Are you not adding to the confusion of the pursuit of truth sense your raligion is bullsh**?

Maybe the religion does lead to the search for truth but then your bullsh** religion isen't bullsh**. You could say everything we have thought is on a foundation of bullsh** but for convinience it would be better not to mention that it's bullsh** at all. This all depends if the practice of the religion it's self means anything or leads to something of value.



ALL religions are fabricated.


As for the Truth -- I will patiently await anyone here who claims to know the Truth -- the Truth with a Capital "T" -- to please enlighten all of us.


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#141    Harriet The Ripperologist

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Posted 25 March 2008 - 05:50 PM

Theoretically, can't anyone create their own religion? There's got to be a few religions out there that exist but don't have many followers so aren't as publicised.

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And he began to have it in mind, as so many gentlemen had done before him, to marry a woman of fortune and condition. And, as such things so often happen, these thoughts closely coincided with his setting first sight upon a lady who will henceforth play a considerable part in the drama of his life....

#142    Mbyte

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Posted 25 March 2008 - 07:34 PM

IronGhost on Mar 25 2008, 04:43 PM, said:

ALL religions are fabricated.


As for the Truth -- I will patiently await anyone here who claims to know the Truth -- the Truth with a Capital "T" -- to please enlighten all of us.

So your exploiting the fact that people practice your religion because they want to find out the truth? What other reason would make the practitioner practice your religion. So basically your saying you can't possibly decieve anyone becasue there is nothing for the religion to deceive. This has got Zen all over it.

Why did you make a religion that doesn't break the law if the law is fabricated?

What is your definition of ethical?

Harriet Reed on Mar 25 2008, 05:50 PM, said:

Theoretically, can't anyone create their own religion? There's got to be a few religions out there that exist but don't have many followers so aren't as publicised.


There are lots and lots of religions that non of us here about


Edited by Mbyte, 25 March 2008 - 07:36 PM.

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#143    SoCrazes

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Posted 25 March 2008 - 07:52 PM

IronGhost on Mar 25 2008, 02:40 PM, said:

First, I deceived no one.  That's also obvious.  It's more than obvious.

Anyone is free to make there own decision as to wether they want to practice my new religion, or not.  Leaving people with total freedom of choice, and creating a religion which empowers every individual to create his or her own destiny and reality, and which requires them to give no money to anyone  is hardly deception, which is more than can be said of most other religions.

The Catholic Church has real estate holding in the U.S. alone that are worth an estimated $100 billion.  Why don't you accuse them of deceit and "worshipping mammon"? They also require that their members donoate 10% of their income to the Church.

My new religion owns no real estate, and no one is required to give money to anyone, much less 10% of their income.

Second, if I "worship mammon" as you say, then why did I spend two years earning zero income working as a volunteer to help homeless people?

In the early 1990s, I was earning about $45,000 a year as a college professor and freelance writer.  I gave up this income to work for two years as a VISTA Volunteer. The U.S. VISTA program is the domestic version of the Peace Corps.  I lived and worked an an inner city Mission, ate in the soup line with the poor people, slept on a lumpy cot, and the occasional train car, for two years.

I gave up about $90,000 in income over that 2-year period.  

How many others here have turned away $90,000?  I did.  

Hardly the pattern of a person who worships mammon, as I'm sure you would agree.

You have led an admirable life and I commend you for it; however, I'm bewildered because you fabricated a story "of Truth" for money knowing that the intention of this story was to bring believers into the fold.  

Yes, for the most part I agree that all religions are fabricated; however, the old addage "two wrongs don't make a right" seems to stick out in mind.  

The "Truth" is allusive and known by few if any.  I feel that I'd be in the wrong to mislead one, let alone many, down a wrong path in searching for the Truth even by accident...let alone intentionally.






"The unexamined life is not worth living." - Socrates

#144    IronGhost

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Posted 25 March 2008 - 08:22 PM

Mbyte on Mar 25 2008, 08:34 PM, said:

So your exploiting the fact that people practice your religion because they want to find out the truth? What other reason would make the practitioner practice your religion. So basically your saying you can't possibly decieve anyone becasue there is nothing for the religion to deceive. This has got Zen all over it.

Why did you make a religion that doesn't break the law if the law is fabricated?

What is your definition of ethical?


Well ... I don't think I am "exploiting" people's desire to seek truth.  That's because I have long held the view that the "Truth" does not need to be found because the "Truth" was never lost by anyone.  To say that people are "seeking the truth" presumes that the "Truth" went somewhere, or was somehow lost, or had yet to be found.  That's not the case.

When a person actively attempts to "seek" the "Truth" that atempt is fundamentally futile.  Everyone and everything already is the Truth -- but having said that, one must keep in mind that what everyone generally considers to be "Truth" is basically a magical concept.

Again, who here can tell me what the "Truth" is?  The fact is, no one can.

A lot of people no doubt will offer a definition of the "Truth" or their concept of the "Truth" or what they think the "Truth" is, but in the end, is that really the "Truth"?

However, what I'm not talking about here is some kind of moral relativism -- and the fact that the "Truth" is impossible define also does not provide anyone with some kind of license to be unethical, or do anything they want.

I would say that part of my definition of ethics is:  "If you can do no good, at least do not harm."

Probably 75% of all the trouble in the world has been caused by people who thought they were doing good, or tried to do something good.  It reminds me of the old saying:  "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."


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#145    largeGROUCH

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Posted 26 March 2008 - 03:00 AM

Hi Ken, I have a StumbleUpon site and as I was Stumbling around, I found your blog.  I stumble and read many topics, but few capture my interest as your's has.  I started with "Multiple universes: The evidence is good" and then went to "27 years of Zen destroyed my life" and, for the moment, finished with "I created a new world religion ".  I'm not sure what it is, exactly, but your style captures my imagination.  I've enjoyed your work so much that I registered, uploaded an avatar and here I am replying to you... I guess that, in part, we share many interests.  I found myself saying "That's right.", "Of course.", "How could it be otherwise?" ... You get my drift.  In "27 years of Zen...", you put my path, and my feelings about that path, into clear words. Now, I call that VERY strange, as I hadn't actually expressed those words to myself, let alone, anyone else.  In "I created a new world religion", you lost me.  Not that I wasn't swept along, but that I wasn't sure whether you wrote it tongue in cheek, or if it ACTUALLY happened.  Either way, it's a great piece. It's just that I had a difficult time believing in the characters, and to a lesser extent, the scenes you described.  And something telles me that you are NOT above pulling the collective leg of your audience... Well, that's my little blurb, for now.  Be well & Take care, Rich aka largeGROUCH


#146    Mbyte

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Posted 26 March 2008 - 02:20 PM

IronGhost on Mar 25 2008, 08:22 PM, said:

Well ... I don't think I am "exploiting" people's desire to seek truth.  That's because I have long held the view that the "Truth" does not need to be found because the "Truth" was never lost by anyone.  To say that people are "seeking the truth" presumes that the "Truth" went somewhere, or was somehow lost, or had yet to be found.  That's not the case.

When a person actively attempts to "seek" the "Truth" that atempt is fundamentally futile.  Everyone and everything already is the Truth -- but having said that, one must keep in mind that what everyone generally considers to be "Truth" is basically a magical concept.

Again, who here can tell me what the "Truth" is?  The fact is, no one can.

A lot of people no doubt will offer a definition of the "Truth" or their concept of the "Truth" or what they think the "Truth" is, but in the end, is that really the "Truth"?

However, what I'm not talking about here is some kind of moral relativism -- and the fact that the "Truth" is impossible define also does not provide anyone with some kind of license to be unethical, or do anything they want.

I would say that part of my definition of ethics is:  "If you can do no good, at least do not harm."

Probably 75% of all the trouble in the world has been caused by people who thought they were doing good, or tried to do something good.  It reminds me of the old saying:  "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."


Now thats the post I've been waiting for. I knew Zen was involved some wear, things weren't adding up. I don't see how you can say there is no truth and still say that this doesn't allow people to be unethical. What do I have to do to harm someone? I can't decieve them in searching for the truth because I can't foil their attempts to "seek" the "Truth", the truth was never lost. I can't harm anyone because they are harming themselves with their illusions and preconceptions. It's not my fault. Thus ethics, like truth is a magical concept.

Well universally the truth can't be lost but in terms of intelligence we must understand and know. This is how one attains the truth and in terms of intelligence the truth can be found. The nature of the universe just is but we don't know. We have a constant illusion and a constant preconception that can't be eluded and that is our mind/brain/life. You can't deny our existance, mainly because we exist. Someone severes your arm. It will result in pain and heart ache. Of course all I have to do is realise nothing has changed. I can still grieve over my arm (Nothing has changed) but the grief is due to my illusions and preconceptions so I can realise this and not grieve over my arm (Still nothing has changed?) I can't see anything about ethics here. I also can't see how nothing has changed when something clearly has changed.

You could be stuck in the freezing snow and as a result you could die. You may have heard of g tummo. A meditation which can heat your body up in cold weather. You can say well I have achieved the meditation because it didn't go anywear. However you would most likely die trying to heat your body up. This means you havn't achieved it. That means universally you have it but you must achieve it. You must achieve balance like a cat and you must achieve a 300lb deadlift. The truth is achievable. What if we are mentally wired to seek the truth. You said they might have found a gene which makes us predispositioned to be in a religion or follow a religion or create them. Don't you think it would be a bit odd that we could be predispositioned to seek the truth despite it being a magical illusionary concept, like religion .

Quote

Probably 75% of all the trouble in the world has been caused by people who thought they were doing good, or tried to do something good.  It reminds me of the old saying:  "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."


If I were to use the KKK as an example to the quote above I would say they that they hid their fears or some form of mental dishormony by saying it's good. They put what they were doing in the context of good to give them reasurance that it wasn't bad and it escallated to become truth and the true underlying reason was forgotton.

"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance."

#147    IronGhost

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Posted 26 March 2008 - 03:11 PM

Mbyte on Mar 26 2008, 02:20 PM, said:

Now thats the post I've been waiting for. I knew Zen was involved some wear, things weren't adding up. I don't see how you can say there is no truth and still say that this doesn't allow people to be unethical.



But I never said there "is no truth" -- in fact, I said just the opposite.  I said the Truth is with us all the time, is here now and everywhere, but that most people have come to believe the Truth is lost, and they must go out and find it, or try to somehow uncover it with their intelligence -- that's ridiculous.

What they end up producing are all kinds of bizarre concepts -- and then very often -- they start killing each other because no ne agrees on the definition of the truth.

People using their intelligence to "find the truth" is what is causing all of the problems in the world.

My wife is a conservative, Bible believing Christian.  She thinks that Jesus Christ is her savior, and that all the truth anyone needs can be found in his teachings.  I ask her sometimes if that is true, then why have the teachings of Christ caused millions of Christians to kill millions of other people over the centuries?  And she says they are misunderstanding the central truths of Jesus' teachings.

Well, fine -- but the fact remains, the great truths Jesus supposedly gave us have caused wars, subjugation of women and other groups, endless scandals, as with Catholic priests raping tens of thousands of children around the world -- just endless amounts of pain, tragedy, human suffering and chaos.

Yet these Christians believe they are on "the path of Truth."

It's ridiculous.

People should never go out and acvtively "seek the Truth" because it is not only so obviously ridiculous to do so, but an impossible task.

Rather, people must realize that they do not "go to the truth -- but rather, the Truth will come to them when they are ready to receive it.

Whenever someone tries to "seek" "find" "discover" "create" "understand" the Truth -- they are doing just exactly the wrong thing.

So, you will never ever "find" the Truth -- you can only let the Truth "find" you.

If you stop seeking the Truth, or trying to understand the Truth, you will stay out of a huge amount of trouble in your life -- and the less trouble you have, the greater the chances are that the Truth will come to you all that much sooner -- even though it is already here, and never went anywhere in the first place.

Edited by IronGhost, 26 March 2008 - 03:15 PM.


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#148    IronGhost

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Posted 26 March 2008 - 04:01 PM

largeGROUCH on Mar 26 2008, 03:00 AM, said:

Hi Ken, I have a StumbleUpon site and as I was Stumbling around, I found your blog.  I stumble and read many topics, but few capture my interest as your's has.  I started with "Multiple universes: The evidence is good" and then went to "27 years of Zen destroyed my life" and, for the moment, finished with "I created a new world religion ".  I'm not sure what it is, exactly, but your style captures my imagination.  I've enjoyed your work so much that I registered, uploaded an avatar and here I am replying to you... I guess that, in part, we share many interests.  I found myself saying "That's right.", "Of course.", "How could it be otherwise?" ... You get my drift.  In "27 years of Zen...", you put my path, and my feelings about that path, into clear words. Now, I call that VERY strange, as I hadn't actually expressed those words to myself, let alone, anyone else.  In "I created a new world religion", you lost me.  Not that I wasn't swept along, but that I wasn't sure whether you wrote it tongue in cheek, or if it ACTUALLY happened.  Either way, it's a great piece. It's just that I had a difficult time believing in the characters, and to a lesser extent, the scenes you described.  And something telles me that you are NOT above pulling the collective leg of your audience... Well, that's my little blurb, for now.  Be well & Take care, Rich aka largeGROUCH



Your comments are more than kind -- welcome to UM, I hope you like it here as much as I do.  Also, we just don't have enough cat wizard avatars here.

You know, when you say that I "lost you" with the religion story -- well, that's the way it goes, I guess.  When one has been in the writing biz long enough, you get used to the fact that there will always be something that you write which will turn people off -- but if writer's don't constanty try to push the envelope, and take risks, the rest of their writing will remain flat, and never get anywhere.

All artists experience the fact that some of there work is not liked, or reviled for some reason -- think about the Rollings Stones, for example.  They have legions of worhsipping fans and have been perhaps the most popular rock band in the world for 45 years, almost half a century -- yet I still hear all the time people say things like: "Boy, that song the Stones did really sucks -- or, they're a great band, but what were they thinking when they made that one album, they really blew it!"  Or some people say, "How can anyone loike the Rollng Stones.  All their music sucks."

Or some people say they love all of an artists paintings, but then say: "Except that one -- he must have been having a bad day when he painted that."

The other thing to notice is how many people will love a certain piece of art, while other wil hate it.  They all see it differently.  This story about the religion I created is a case in point -- my mail is running about 65% "loved it" and 35% "hated it."  Some people ont his thread have even said they'll never read another one of my stories.

But -- thats the way it goes.  As much as I hate to stoop to cliche -- If one can't take the heat, one must stay out of the kitchen.

I like to be in the kitchen cooking all the time.




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#149    crtDzyn

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Posted 26 March 2008 - 04:40 PM

Care to snag me something for lunch while you're there?

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#150    IronGhost

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Posted 26 March 2008 - 07:16 PM

crtbud on Mar 26 2008, 04:40 PM, said:

Care to snag me something for lunch while you're there?


Yes, crtbud, I will prepare for you an extravagent lunch, which I hope you will apperciate.  Here is the banquet I offer to you:

Steamed pork and chicken
boiled crayfish flavored with red pepper
boiled choat fish
boiled squid
canned kipper from Norway
Sardines in mustard or tomato sauce
raw fish in lime juice
Tulebee fish fried in garlic butter
fish balls in coconut cream
A large bowl of poi
rice
bananas
papaya
avocacados
minced clams in coconut curd
heart of palm
octopus stewed in its own ink

and for desert:

custard made with canned milk infused with vanilla and coffee beans

After your lunch, you will be offered a cigar smuggled into the United States from Cuba.

While you smoke your cigar, you will be offered a cold glass of the finest Russian Vodak, hand made by barefoot virgins from the plains of Kurkmanst.

Edited by IronGhost, 26 March 2008 - 07:17 PM.


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