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Scientific Evidence of Creationism


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#1261    Rosencrantz

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 12:10 PM

IrishAidan on Sep 15 2008, 07:43 AM, said:

I know for a fact that many on this forum have no clue what I.D. is all about. One person actually claimed it was the Biblical account of creation and nothing more. What staggering ignorance. That type of ignorance makes me wanna beat the hell outta something. I mean, that just goes to show you how political this is. That person said it was the Biblical account of creation because they know that people on the Right end of the political spectrum, generally, want it taught in schools - at least people on the far Right. So, because they are on the opposite end of the political spectrum, they simply assume it's another ploy by the Christian Right to get Biblical creation into the minds of their children.

BS. Pure and simple.


Don't know what I.D. is about?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/program.html

That is what I.D. is about. Hear about it directly from the people who support it and formulated it. Its a wedge strategy. Nothing more.

Edited by Rosencrantz, 15 September 2008 - 12:10 PM.

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#1262    IrishAidan07

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 12:13 PM

If certain religious hijack it, that's their fault. Evolution is hijacked, too, by stern atheists. Is that the fault of the Evolutionary Biologists who believe in God? Of course not. Anyone who says it is Biblical creationism in disguise is full of it - period.

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#1263    They're Here

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 12:16 PM

Leonardo on Sep 15 2008, 07:36 AM, said:

ID is a hypothesis in the unscientific sense of the word. I could not see an objection to it being taught alongside religious studies or philosophy - but not as a science.

If that is the case, then I conclude that Science is fundamentally flawed and it requires a disclaimer be taught alongside it. You did not answer my question:

If it is true that aliens created our DNA then sent it here by means of directed panspermia, then why are we teaching the lie of abiogenesis to the exclusion of all other hypotheses?

Leonardo on Sep 15 2008, 07:36 AM, said:

As far as abiogenesis being based on faith, only so far as we know chemistry and are confident of being able to create conditions that facilitate the formation of the proteins from which all life is built. There are no other theories that are pure science.


You only call it unscientific because you can't fathom a means of testing for it. That doesn't mean it's unscientific, it just means we haven't acquired the right knowledge yet, or we don't have the right technology yet, or we just haven't looked hard enough.

Leonardo on Sep 15 2008, 07:36 AM, said:

So, you would consider a machine capable of combining the amino acids into proteins, and these proteins into living organisms alive?


No, but there would be intelligence behind the machine.

Leonardo on Sep 15 2008, 07:36 AM, said:

What mechanism, then, do you propose for explaining what 'life' actually is (and not the gross material that life would inhabit) and how it 'got into' organic matter.

Life is the only thing we know of to explain intelligent design. Of course I know you will just point to abiogenesis so please understand that I'm not asking that we stop teaching abiogenesis. I'm only asking that science not exclude other possibilities. For the benefit of searching for the truth.


#1264    Rosencrantz

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 12:18 PM

IrishAidan on Sep 15 2008, 08:13 AM, said:

If certain religious hijack it, that's their fault. Evolution is hijacked, too, by stern atheists. Is that the fault of the Evolutionary Biologists who believe in God? Of course not. Anyone who says it is Biblical creationism in disguise is full of it - period.


You obviously haven't done your homework.

Look at what was brought forth during the Dover trial. In particular, 'cdesign proponentsists'.

Edited by Rosencrantz, 15 September 2008 - 12:19 PM.

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#1265    IrishAidan07

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 12:21 PM

Rosencrantz on Sep 15 2008, 08:18 AM, said:

You obviously haven't done your homework.

Look at what was brought forth during the Dover trial. In particular, 'cdesign proponentsists'.



Read the transcript when they were talking to Dr. Behe.

"Is this theory based on a religious premise?"

"Absolutely not."



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#1266    Rosencrantz

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 12:24 PM

IrishAidan on Sep 15 2008, 08:21 AM, said:

Read the transcript when they were talking to Dr. Behe.

"Is this theory based on a religious premise?"

"Absolutely not."


And perhaps you should have paid attention to what a little guy by the name of Phillip E. Johnson has to say and the controversy surrounding a little textbook by the name of "Of Panda's and People" deals with.

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#1267    IrishAidan07

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 12:27 PM

Rosencrantz on Sep 15 2008, 08:24 AM, said:

And perhaps you should have paid attention to what a little guy by the name of Phillip E. Johnson has to say and the controversy surrounding a little textbook by the name of "Of Panda's and People" deals with.



And that was brought up in the debate video I presented, which you clearly didn't watch, and that same guy, Philip E. Johnson, said that he and other scientists who support I.D. cannot be held accountable for that. Video 4 of 8. Happy hunting.

Try actually looking at the stuff I present. Then, perhaps, you wouldn't be making silly comments.

It's nothing more than a hijack of actual science. Period. It has nothing to do with Biblical creation. If the Dover school board was motivated by the Bible and their religion, that's their fault.

Edited by IrishAidan, 15 September 2008 - 12:34 PM.

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#1268    Rosencrantz

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 12:43 PM

I don't know what planet you are from, but in the realm of science, for which I am a future member of, you won't be taken seriously from posting website links from...

http://www.bigbangneverhappened.org/

amongst others.

The Big Bang has 'little' evidence for it? Please do yourself a favor, enroll in a college of your choice and take an intro to astrophysics class. Then you can come back to discuss things here.

The same goes for your assertion that I.D. is not creationism with a masque. Please, get a formal education instead of meandering around the internet. Take a philosophy of science course and perhaps then you will have enough information to enter in a debate. Fortunately for you, very little people on this board have such an education to hold your claims suspect.

And I did look at your links. Is that honestly your defense? Also, your use of diction suggest you are under the impression that Johnson is a member of the scientific community. In fact, every single thing Johnson has ever said in regards to science in his literary works is incorrect and distorted. If you don't believe me, ask any biologist at a given research university.

Edited by Rosencrantz, 15 September 2008 - 12:45 PM.

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#1269    IrishAidan07

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 12:49 PM

Quote

I don't know what planet you are from, but in the realm of science, for which I am a future member of, you won't be taken seriously from posting website links from...


Are you really that silly? Did you not see what I said before that? "I have Web sites, too." It was a pun at how cheesy the Web site he posted was.

You'll notice that the second Web site I presented is a good, unbias Web site that admits the evidence for the Big Bang theory, and provides reference. I linked it, too, because it also talks with several other scientists that say what is observed in the universe can be explained by phenomena other than the Big Bang theory.

The bottom line: The Big Bang has not and cannot be proven. It cannot be dis proven. It cannot be tested. Niether can I.D., so my question is, which nobody will answer, why is the BBT taught in schools but I.D. is not?

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Quote

The Big Bang has 'little' evidence for it? Please do yourself a favor, enroll in a college of your choice and take an intro to astrophysics class. Then you can come back to discuss things here.


Do you really want to get into a battle of education with me?

Just for giggles: What should follow your name, Rosencrantz? Secondly, why should it follow your name? Thirdly, who is responsible for what I am referring to? Fourthly, what, created in 1983, is in appreciation of that person? And lastly, that which should follow your name expands on something else. What?

Should we go on? We can have a battle of wits and education if you'd like - I propose in real time, like a chat, without Google being a factor. Then you can prove to me this infamous formal education you claim, by default, to have.  Try and figure out what I'm talking about. If within 5 minutes you still don't know the answers, then Google it. But after you Google it, accept that you are just a bigmouth who really doesn't know as much as he thinks.

Quote

The same goes for your assertion that I.D. is not creationism with a masque. Please, get a formal education instead of meandering around the internet. Take a philosophy of science course and perhaps then you will have enough information to enter in a debate. Fortunately for you, very little people on this board have such an education to hold your claims suspect.


I presented evidence. Have you? No. You posted a PBS Web site of a single, solitary trial. You some how think the Dover school board and their religiously motivated members speak for the entire I.D. community.

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Quote

And I did watch your links. Is that honestly your defense? Also, your use of diction suggest you are under the impression that Johnson is a member of the scientific community. In fact, every single thing Johnson has ever said in regards to science in his literary works is incorrect and distorted. If you don't believe me, ask any biologist at a given research university.


No you didn't, because you wouldn't have brought up Philip E. Johnson. -SNIP- And instead of making a claim like the ladder of your post, perhaps you could prove it. You see, where I went to school, they actually taught us that effective argumentation is not simply - I say so, therefore it is.

I see a parallel among most of you Evolutionists. You guys clearly have no idea what I.D. is about or the science that is involved. You are seemingly unaware that many other sciences taught in high school rely heavily on the art of detection. You apparently don't know that the BBT cannot be proven, dis proven, or even tested, which means it fails the infamous "scientific rigor" bit you guys spout, yet it is still taught in high school. I ask why I.D., being that it cannot be proven, dis proven, or tested, is not taught, and what do you do? Tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. Real strong argument there, Rosencrantz. LOL.

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Edited by darkbreed, 16 September 2008 - 01:36 AM.
removed offensive language and personal attack

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#1270    ifisurvive

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 01:11 PM

IrishAidan on Sep 15 2008, 12:43 PM, said:

I know for a fact that many on this forum have no clue what I.D. is all about. One person actually claimed it was the Biblical account of creation and nothing more. What staggering ignorance. That type of ignorance makes me wanna beat the hell outta something. I mean, that just goes to show you how political this is. That person said it was the Biblical account of creation because they know that people on the Right end of the political spectrum, generally, want it taught in schools - at least people on the far Right. So, because they are on the opposite end of the political spectrum, they simply assume it's another ploy by the Christian Right to get Biblical creation into the minds of their children.

BS. Pure and simple.

As your entrance to this particular thread seemed to stem from comments between us in another thread was this 'person' meant to be me? If it was that's really not my opinion. The discussion that we were having was very high-level - on your side as well as mine - and my opinion of ID is nothing to do with the right or left, it's my opinion of the science.

If it wasn't me you were refering to... never mind, carry on  wink2.gif


#1271    IrishAidan07

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 01:13 PM

Quote

If it wasn't me you were refering to... never mind, carry on


It wasn't.

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#1272    Daughter of the Nine Moons

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 01:17 PM

I would like to gently remind all members that flamebaiting and abusive behavior is not tolerated. If you are unable to post without resorting to such you will find yourself with a warning and/or have your posting provlages revoked. Full forum rules can be found here.

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#1273    IrishAidan07

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 01:26 PM

Daughter of the Nine Moons on Sep 15 2008, 09:17 AM, said:

I would like to gently remind all members that flamebaiting and abusive behavior is not tolerated. If you are unable to post without resorting to such you will find yourself with a warning and/or have your posting provlages revoked. Full forum rules can be found here.



Sorry.

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#1274    IrishAidan07

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 01:56 PM

What My Formal Education Taught Me About The "Big Bang Theory".

First of all, the name is misleading. People erroneously assume there was a big explosion - there wasn't. The Big Bang Theory is the successor to the "Steady State Theory," which theorized that the universe was always here and was always the same size. Supernova and gravity is and was responsible for slight changes, but overall, it remained the same. Hence the name.

That theory was proved wrong when Hubble noted the expansion of the universe. Then we had what was called singularity; that the universe was ridiculously tiny, like a nanometer or smaller, and gradually expanded into what it is now via an explosion. Singularity is often noted where? A Black Hole. But it's obvious that if our universe was nothing more than a Black Hole, then how did it explode into what we have now? It couldn't have. Black Holes pull things in - they don't explode outward. So there went that idea.

Then we have the modern Big Bang Theory. The matter + energy bit. There had to be something, 'cause there can never be nothing. So, basically the Big Bang Theory states that overtime, matter created energy, and from there the universe expanded into what it is now. The problem with the Big Bang Theory, however, is it can't explain where the matter that created energy came from (matter moving at the speed of light creates what? Yay! Energy!). Secondly, we've never noted energy being distributed in the way the Big Bang Theory supposes.

There is the long and short of it. The BBT is essentially the evolution of our universe - not necessarily its beginning. Dense & Hot to Less Dense & Cool.

Either way, can't be proven yet still taught in our science courses. I mean, if I.D. can't be proven and therefore shouldn't be taught, why should the BBT? Neither can be proven - yet both have SOME evidence. Some, not a lot. Some. Note that word: SOME!

Now you can Google what some scientists, not in the Creation lobby, have to say about the BBT. Fred Hoyle, sure you know who he is, didn't believe in the BBT either.

Edited by IrishAidan, 15 September 2008 - 02:19 PM.

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#1275    Leonardo

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 02:19 PM

IrishAidan on Sep 15 2008, 12:43 PM, said:

Yes there is. I showed you the link. I.D. is not unlike other sciences that rely on detection.


My apologies but I did not see a link to any evidence? Would you be so kind as to repost it please?

Might I also state that, for ID to be valid as a Theory or hypothesis all the premises of the Theory or hypothesis must be backed up with evidence, including the premise of a designer. The link I request must contain evidence of said designer's existence.

Please note that complexity is NOT evidence of a designer, it is only evidence of ... complexity. Complexity does not require intelligent design and to declare that, because something is complex it must have been designed by some agency other than natural ones (such as Natural Selection, feedback etc) is false logic.

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