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Disproving the flood using math


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#1    UtahRaptor

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Posted 09 May 2008 - 05:59 PM

What you are about to see here is the 100% disproval of Noah's Flood, Noah's Ark, and in general Creationism as a whole in one shot.

Why would I do this? No it is NOT to bash you people or any the religion. Personally I think the core of Christianity and Catholicism is just fine. It uses stories and teaches some REALLY good moral values and ways of life. In other places it does however encourage out right murder for no reason. Just read the first quarter of King James and do not skip a single sentence. It is definitely there. Times back then were different than they are now. Thus the reason why entire sections of The Bible are no longer even read. Also thus the reason out right murder was fine back in those days. Remember we are talking about over 2000 years into the past. Times change......

This is really geared to the people who take The Bible too literally and completely accept it and all of it's contents as FACT. All I want to do is to make you think for yourself and see absolutely unquestionable math based 100% fact. No myth, no lore, no imagination, just straight up, in your face, 100% math based fact. I have done my research on, mass, water displacement, equal mass displacement, buoyancy, ship building, water cycle, cosmology, buoyancy in differential gravitational fields, animal's weights, and a whole lot of paleontology and zoology.

Now onto the subject at hand:

Flood:

It is said that the entire planet is submerged by water. The highest peaks are 6 meters under, as taken from Genesis chapters 6-9. Well if you were to liquefy all ice on the planet, the water levels would only rise 20-50 feet globally. Mount Ararat is 16,854 feet high, while  the tallest mountain, Mt. Everest is 29,028 feet high. 16,854 feet does not equal 20-50 feet, nor does 29,028 feet. 20-50 feet equals 20-50 feet, no more, no less. This posses two immediate questions! Where did all of that water come from? Where did all of that water go? Well everyone who has made it past 2nd grade can tell you the flood never happened. Why? The water cycle. This planet has had the same exact amount of water on it since it's beginning. It is in an unending cycle of evaporation, condensation, and precipitation. Water changes form, but never amount. Of coarse there is a differential of about maybe 1,000,000 gallons or so due to comet bombardment and volcanic activity. Comets are mainly ice, which is solidified water.

There, the flood never really happened.

Now lets just assume that the flood DID indeed happen, Noah is real, and he is not a story stolen from the ancient Babylonians. There, the flood is real, Noah (not Gilgamesh) is real, and finally the ark itself is real.

The Ark:

I read a bit of the Boatbuilder's Handbook from uscgboating.org. This is the US Coast Guard here. I read there that a boat 18'6" long has the capacity to carry 2513 pounds. This is the deck, propulsion system, sails, passengers...... well everything. The longest figures that I have seen of Noah's Ark is 515ft long. I did some calculations. The largest Noah's Ark can carry 69,954 pounds. The average weight of an African Savanna Elephant is 7.7 tons. This is the largest land animal alive today. Noah's Ark could carry only 4 and a half of them and no more. Genesis chapters 6-9 says Noah needs 1-7 pairs of each animal on the planet. Again Noah's Ark could only hold 4 and a half Savanna Elephants. This is not even including the three decks, the people, food and water for 40 days and nights of the actual flood, the 150 days of water receding, and the 40 or 50 days after the water receded. This is the total actual time spent on the Ark. 7 months and 17 days.

How bid does the ARk actually need to be to hold 1-7 pairs of every animal on the planet. Not only animals but seeds of every plant, food, water, and anything else necessary for all people and animals.

Admittedly this is where I start guessing:

OK with plant seeds and insects alone of all of these alive TODAY and TODAY alone would be perhaps in the low estimate neighborhood of 500 tons. That's is seeds and a few pairs of insects of each specie alive TODAY. Now lets take into consideration the extinction rate from 4300 years ago until now and boost that, at the very least, to 700 tons. (this boat is already stupid huge and we didn't even put a single mouse on it yet nor have we put on storage for these things let alone food and water for 7 and a half months)

I'm gonna take a quick break and name a few animals:
Elephant, Lion, Grizzly Bear, Anaconda, Tiger, Wolverine, Polar Bear.......

Do you think primitive humans could contain such beasts? No freaking way!

Let me remind all of you that a Polar Bear can pick up a 2 ton White Whale and throw it using one, single, arm. Yes! they are THAT strong! You think a human can contain that magnitude of strength with primitive technology?? Guess again!

OK! Now for the animals, and I'll take a nice short cut and include all of the animals including the extinction rate of 4300 years to now. This is one pair of each animal: avian, terrestrial, and subterranean..... my extreme guess and best estimate would be 500 billion tons? The ship has got to be the size of the USA by now if not possibly all of Asia! This doesn't even include the three decks, food, water, people, and containment for 7 months and 17 days

Ready for more??? We just started!! We are so not even close to being done yet!! I can do this aaaaalllllllll day!
                                                               ALL DAY!

The Christian and Catholics have accepted that dinosaurs exist. Not only that, but they were on the Ark since we all lived at the same time. So, how about all the animals from the time AFTER the dinosaurs but before us? Lets give it a shot!!!

Animals of the Cenozoic Era come on down!!!!:

Woolly Mammoth, Woolly Rhino, Sabre Toothed Cats!!! Yes!!!! Megistotherium, Andrewsarchus (pretty much 6 ton giant dogs) Chalicotherium, Entelodont, Leptictidium, Australopithecus, Castoroides Ohioensis, Gigantopithichus, Ambulocetus, and the Indricotherium. The Indricoltherium is a 20 ft tall, 30 ft long, 20 ton mammal. The largest land mammal ever found. It dwarfs the mammoth in every respect!! The Bullokornis!! This is a 1,100 pound bird and is also known as The Demon Duck Of Doom!!!!!! Terror birds, Gastornis! Yup them too! I'm pretty sure there is a 1 ton bird as well, but I forget it's name..... Also lets not forget the insects and plants. Avian, Terran, and Subterranean of the Cenozoic Era!! Ready???

                              500 trillion tons!! + 500 billion tons + 700 tons = 500,500,000,000,700 Tons

One pair of each animal, no humans, food, water, decks, nor means of containment yet. This is not even the Ark itself. This is what the Ark must CARRY. I don't even think the planet Earth can contain this boat now! Anyone know the mass of Earth?? I'm not looking that one up yet. And I do stress YET! By the time we are done we might be measuring in solar masses........

Time to load up the dinosaurs!! The Mesozoic Era's turn now!!

Tyrannosaur, Allosaur, Carnisaur, Gigantosaur, Stegosaur, Triceratops, Protoceratops, Plateosaur, Spineosaur, Suchamimus, Gastonia, Ankleosaur, Brachiosaur, Coelophysis, Microraptor, Eoraptor, Velociraptor, Megaraptor, Thilizinosaur, Comptheosaur, Archeopteryx, Ornithechairus, Pteradon, Dinosuchus, Pterodactyl, Ornathilestis!! Yup!!! Load em up!!! Every dinosaur, avian reptile, ancient reptile, ancient amphibian, and primitive mammal!! Every last animal! And lets not forget the insects and seeds!!!! A few quadrillion tons?? Lets just say 100 Quadrillion!!

                                                       100,500,500,000,000,700 tons

Nope!! no food, water, people, decks, bla bla bla!! Not yet!!

By the way the mass of Earth is 5.9736 X 10^24kg

Now for the Paleozoic Era! Now I know what your gonna say and your right. Terran animals have only been on land for 315 billion years, so we get a break on this one. But don't for get plants! They have been on land for 475 billion years. Incests are there too. But a little bit less of a time than plants. And no, I'm not going to add in sea scorpions that occasionally made short scouting trips onto land. Nor am I going to add the fish that spawned in fresh water pools and then jumped back into the oceans. I honestly never counted a single fish. I didn't even slip in a guppy under your noses. This one is tough since I have limited study in this time frame. How does 250 trillion tons sound? That one may be an over estimation by 1 or 2 trillion.......

OK!! Grand total!! 100,750,500,000,000,700 tons! now for a few people, 3 decks, reinforcement beams, reinforced containment, food, water, and a few odds and ends. Lets triple that number since large animals can eat their own weight in a few months, and amphibians need a hell of a lot more water than any other animal. Also it's always better to over estimate supplies than run out. Especially for long trips......

Total now is: 302,251,500,000,002,100 tons. Now lets convert this into pounds. (# x 2000)

604,431,000,000,004,200,000 pounds!

And how long is Noah's Ark actually supposed to be? If a 18'6" boat hold 2513 pounds than Noah's Ark is........

604,431,000,000,004,200,000 divided by 2513 = 240,521,687,226,424,273.776'362'912'853'16 X 18'6" =

Noah's actual Ark should have been 4,449,651,213,688,849,064.862'713'887'7835 feet long in order to carry all animals, plants, humans, and insects and keep them alive for 7 months and 17 day.

OH! How forgetful of me!!! This is only ONE pair of each animal. NOT the required 2-7 pairs for some animals!! So this boat is NOT even it's full ACTUAL size!

Earth's Equatorial Radius: 6,378.1 km
Earth's Equatorial Circumference: 40,075.02 km
The Sun's Equatorial Radius: 6.955×10^8 m
The Sun's Equatorial Circumference: 4.379×10^9 m = 14,366,797,900,260 feet

This boat for one pair of each animal is 309,717.673 times LONGER than OUR Sun's Equatorial circumference.

1 soalr mass = 4,385,214,857,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 pounds. Nope, we didn't hit 1 solar mass.



Dear God that's a lot of POOP!

Edited by UtahRaptor, 10 May 2008 - 06:08 AM.

Yippie kai-yay MF

#2    annmariet

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Posted 09 May 2008 - 06:16 PM

wow - I need to read that a few times to get all the math - but very interesting!!   And I thought my dogs left me a lot of "presents" in the yard. This helped put that in perspective for me!!!  Nice post original.gif

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#3    UtahRaptor

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Posted 09 May 2008 - 06:43 PM

Please let me know if you see some math errors. There is bound to be tons of spelling errors. I royaly suck at spelling and I'm noctural. It's 2:42 pm so it is WAY past my bed time and I'm extremely tired now.

Edited by UtahRaptor, 09 May 2008 - 06:44 PM.

Yippie kai-yay MF

#4    The Skeptic Eric Raven

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Posted 09 May 2008 - 06:49 PM

UtahRaptor on May 9 2008, 01:43 PM, said:

Please let me know if you see some math errors. There is bound to be tons of spelling errors. I royaly suck at spelling and I'm noctural. It's 2:42 pm so it is WAY past my bed time and I'm extremely tired now.

What every happened about the super dino your "friend" had supposedly found? rolleyes.gif

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#5    Primeval

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Posted 09 May 2008 - 06:51 PM

Math huh? I just used common sense! Never was good at math though...

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#6    Tiggs

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Posted 09 May 2008 - 07:27 PM

Moved to Spirituality vs Skepticism, as the OP is made from a Skeptical, rather than Spiritual, viewpoint.

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#7    SQLserver

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Posted 09 May 2008 - 07:51 PM

The flood is a freaking joke... Even the most die hard Creationists shudder at trying to defend it...

Of course it is impossible. It is botanically, biologically, and meterologically impossible to boot.

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#8    Rosewin

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Posted 09 May 2008 - 07:54 PM

Quote

The flood is a freaking joke... Even the most die hard Creationists shudder at trying to defend it...

Of course it is impossible. It is botanically, biologically, and meterologically impossible to boot.

-SQLserver


zomg this has to be the very best argument i have ever heard against it. oh noes i guess i cannot believe in god now.


#9    IamsSon

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Posted 09 May 2008 - 08:21 PM

Oh wow!!  Right here on UM!!! Finally proof that the Flood didn't happen!!!   laugh.gif

"But then with me that horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin, in a letter to William Graham on July 3, 1881

#10    bleach

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Posted 09 May 2008 - 09:19 PM

I have read part of your post, math is not my favorite subject in the least. It seems to me you are subtracting God from the equation. Was this story not in the bible? It is like saying Jesus did not turn water into wine because no one else has ever done it.


#11    Guyver

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Posted 09 May 2008 - 10:02 PM

Well that is complete non-sense.  Sure, I could spend my time pointing out the myriad of issues - but why?  Think of the time it took to think that up, even if it were complete fiction, there would be no changing this persons mind.  I believe in the actual, historical creationist view of the flood mind you, not the neoscientific mediterranean only version - and I have no problem with any aspects of the event.  With about 75% of our planet covered in water, it's hard to believe someone would actually doubt it, unless they really, really wanted to.  



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#12    Cimber

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Posted 09 May 2008 - 10:09 PM

Yetihunter on May 9 2008, 06:02 PM, said:

Well that is complete non-sense.  Sure, I could spend my time pointing out the myriad of issues - but why?  Think of the time it took to think that up, even if it were complete fiction, there would be no changing this persons mind.  I believe in the actual, historical creationist view of the flood mind you, not the neoscientific mediterranean only version - and I have no problem with any aspects of the event.  With about 75% of our planet covered in water, it's hard to believe someone would actually doubt it, unless they really, really wanted to.


Becker, B. & Kromer, B., 1993. The continental tree-ring record - absolute chronology, C-14 calibration and climatic-change at 11 KA. Palaeogeography Palaeoclimatology Palaeoecology, 103 (1-2): 67-71.

No evidence of a global flood based on tree ring records.


#13    fullywired

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Posted 09 May 2008 - 10:21 PM

Yetihunter on May 9 2008, 11:02 PM, said:

Well that is complete non-sense.  Sure, I could spend my time pointing out the myriad of issues - but why?  Think of the time it took to think that up, even if it were complete fiction, there would be no changing this persons mind.  I believe in the actual, historical creationist view of the flood mind you, not the neoscientific mediterranean only version - and I have no problem with any aspects of the event.  With about 75% of our planet covered in water, it's hard to believe someone would actually doubt it, unless they really, really wanted to.






It is equally hard to believe that someone would actually believe in the flood  ,unless they really wanted to



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#14    grither

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Posted 09 May 2008 - 10:24 PM

Raptor great post! The flood couldn't have happened. Loved the way you made your point with math, something I suck at. By the way I like your avatar.


#15    Stellar

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Posted 09 May 2008 - 11:27 PM

Ooops! You forgot a step there Raptor! Let me fix it:

Quote

604,431,000,000,004,200,000 divided by 2513 = 240,521,687,226,424,273.776'362'912'853'16 X 18'6" + HOCUS POCUS =

Noah's actual Ark should have been 444.965 feet long in order to carry all animals, plants, humans, and insects and keep them alive for 7 months and 17 day.


Edited by Stellar, 09 May 2008 - 11:27 PM.

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