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Suicide Bombing


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#31    Erikl

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Posted 23 February 2004 - 08:09 PM

Well, as a matter of fact I am a witness and I know what is going on here in Israel. And I can tell you that there is not even a single truth in what Talon said. It is pure Arab propaganda.

Look
here

and

Legacy of Palestinians (warning: the second link is graphic and shows dead people and body parts)

to see the truth in the Middle-East.

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#32    PsychicPenguin

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Posted 23 February 2004 - 08:23 PM

Uhm.. wait.. you posted a link from MFA and said that it contains the truth of middle east and not propaganda ???   blink.gif

So do you live in Israel? For us here, we have to go there to see what's going on, but if you live there, then you have to go out to get a better view.

Most people here believes that war in Iraq is a good thing, while Europeans don't. It is just a matter of point of view. And you need both sides to get the whole picture. Well, in fact you will never get the whole picture.

Thanks for the link but they don't work here.


#33    Erikl

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Posted 23 February 2004 - 08:36 PM

Oh that is interesting... you find Talon's info to be good, although you can hear from his tone that he is very anti-israeli, and although he lives in Scotland, you accept his graphic propaganda to be reliable.
Are you sure the your being objective?
I need to get a better view? I think that it is Talon and people like him, who sit calmly in front of their computers in very far places like Scotland, Belgium, Holland, etc. who need to get a better view...


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#34    PsychicPenguin

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Posted 23 February 2004 - 08:47 PM

It is not that I'm being non-objective, it is just your link doesn't work. I cannot open and read them. How am I supposed to justify its contents??

I believe you know better than Talon, but the government may not be telling you the truth, therefore I cannot trust MFA website any more than Arab propaganda. In fact governments never tell the truth in times of war.


#35    Phantom

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Posted 23 February 2004 - 08:48 PM

This thread is being followed with keen eyes.

The moderating team doesn't strive to close threads in which a healthy, even somehow agressive, discussion is going on.

Keep up the good discussion, but we would appreciate it if it would be kept from sliding downhill. In that case this thread will be closed without second thought.

Thank you for your kind consideration.


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#36    Erikl

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Posted 23 February 2004 - 08:48 PM

And one more thing:
"The image of the father trying (in vain ) to shelter his son is the one image that has always haunted me since the begining of this conflict." -Stamford

The father was a terrorist and he used his own son to shelter himself from the fire... but ofcourse you don't hear that in European TV Channels.
(There is a saying here in Israel that says: "The day Palestinian mothers will love their children more than they hate Jews, there will be true peace").
The kid was fired by a Palestinian terrorist (accidentaly, I'm sure) when he fired on IDF soldiers.
And what about the Rammalah Lynch? It is funny how that image doesn't haunt anyone in Europe...

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#37    Erikl

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Posted 23 February 2004 - 09:01 PM

Here, now the link should work. Again, this is a VERY graphic film.

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#38    PsychicPenguin

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Posted 23 February 2004 - 09:27 PM

OK that's pretty strong graphics too. I guess you know how it's like to live under constant terrorist threat, something that most of us not very familiar with. I can see the problem is not as simple as  "bad Israelis firing missiles to civilians.", but it is also not about "bad Palestinians suicide bombers targetting civilians." It is actually nice to have you in this thread, but please keep down your emotion thumbsup.gif  


#39    Seraphina

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Posted 23 February 2004 - 09:51 PM

Erikl - are you Israili? huh.gif Because if so, that slants you veiw point just a little...

QUOTE
The father was a terrorist and he used his own son to shelter himself from the fire...


The picture shows a terrified, unarmed man, with his equally terrified son, who is quite obviously trying to push the boy behind him....it does not take great observation skills to see that. I would suggest that the version of the story you've been told is somewhat of a lie.

QUOTE
The kid was fired by a Palestinian terrorist (accidentaly, I'm sure) when he fired on IDF soldiers.


With what, his finger?

If you are indeed Israili, may I ask how you justify the fact that, while I admit the violence does travel in both directions, the acts of genocide and murder commited by your camp are carried about directly by your government and military, directed against the general population of Palistine? The bombings are carried out by minority terrorist groups, not by a recognised military or government organisation in Palistine...why do you see justification in the brutal murder of civilians and people who have nothing to do with the actions of extremist groups?

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#40    Bizarro

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Posted 23 February 2004 - 09:54 PM

shouldnt this thread be in the current affairs/world events forum?  just a thought.  

in war, neither side is innocent.  that being said, i am more sympathetic to the Palestinians in this situation than the Israelis.  the reason i am sympathetic to the Palestinians is that the Israelis could end this situation by giving up those contested areas and stopping the domination of a nation by force.  i do not agree with suicide bombings though and i can understand why the Israelis are so reluctant to just walk out of the occupied territories but that is the only solution that will bring peace.  

this is hardly the result of 'propaganda' as almost all news in the US is very sympathetic to Israel and not the Palestinians.  if a suicide bombing happens, we hear about it immediately as a top news story, but when Palestinian children are murdered in the streets everyday, all we see is the stock footage flashes of rock throwing teenagers and protestors carrying a coffin (maybe with a blurb about how many people died).  in contrast, we pour over the Israeli casualties and view them as total innocents murdered by extremists.  if we are to be so outraged by innocents dying, why don't we show it on both sides equally?  there is a definite pro-Israeli slant to our media and it has always bothered me.  

why don't the Israelis stop building settlements in the disputed territory?  the issue with the Palestinians is not just terrorism but rather a civil uprising against an occupying force.  an entire nation of people is being terrorized everyday and having their future destroyed.  the Israeli's may be terrorized too, but they still have a viable economy and a future for the majority of their citizens.  in contrast, consider the life of the average Palestinian: the Israeli army rambles through towns wrecking any chance these people have for a normal existance- destroying homes, businesses and families.  there is no future for them and they are acting as people without a future act.  

i am always sad to hear about another suicide bombing, but its a sadness for both the Israelis and the Palestinians.  its a human tragedy and the world should intervene to stop it.  sometimes that is the only solution.  if we leave it to the warring parties, it could go on forever.


btw, Erikl... if the man was a terrorist and using a child to shelter himself, does that make it right to kill the child just to kill the terrorist?

Edited by Bizarro, 23 February 2004 - 10:05 PM.

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#41    Fluffybunny

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Posted 23 February 2004 - 10:09 PM

I agree with Bizarro on this one. From my point of view, it seems that neither side is totally in the right. Both sides have valid arguments. As for the father and the son in the video, it looked like they were unarmed, even if the dad was a terrorist, it seemed like an easy way to arrest him would have been right then when he was unarmed.

I just dont know where it is going to end. I also don't know why the US needs to be involved in the matter to the degree that they are. The problems in the middle east seem to be flowing out to the rest of the world, and that is what bothers me.

Too many people on both sides of the spectrum have fallen into this mentality that a full one half of the country are the enemy for having different beliefs...in a country based on freedom of expression. It is this infighting that allows the focus to be taken away from "we the people" being able to watch, and have control over government corruption and ineptitude that is running rampant in our leadership.

People should be working towards fixing problems, not creating them.

#42    Seraphina

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Posted 23 February 2004 - 10:13 PM

I can't remember whether I posted this earlier or not...my ISP is really smegged up at the moment, and won't let me post more often than not (is on Tal's comp right now) but my theory on this...

QUOTE
I just dont know where it is going to end. I also don't know why the US needs to be involved in the matter to the degree that they are.


Is because the US put them there in the first place. I think the reason such a strong pro-Israil stance is taken by the government and the media is because they cannot be seen to have made a bad decision in doing so. It seems a matter of pride more than anything else, on that front at least.

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#43    Erikl

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Posted 23 February 2004 - 10:14 PM

The fact is that there is no Genocide. There is no brutall kilings of innocent Palestinians. The truth is also that the Palestinians won't settle for the West Bank and Gaza. They want all of Israel. You can see it in their school books, in their government's symbols and speeches. The truth is that Israel's economy is not that good for the last 3 years. The fact is that Israel offered Arafat 97% of all the disputed territories and addition of 3% from Israel's terriroty. Araft refused.
You must understand that what you consider pro-Israeli, we consider somewhat anti-Israeli. Sure, Suicide Bombings are given full coverage. But still, the notion of cruel, Nazi-like Israel is being showed all over the world.
The fact is that most of the Suicide Bombings are commited by middle-class Palestinians, not some poor an miserable ones. The poor ones are more occupied with taking care of their families. The suicide bombings started long before 1967. The first intifada was in 1920, than 1929, than 1936, than 1948, than 1987, and now 2000.
Most Israelis see this war as a war that will set the future of the country.
The Palestinians already have Kassam missiles, RPG, AK47, M16 etc.
We see most of Europe against us, the UN traditionally against us, and no one supports us accept the US. This is how the avarage Israeli see this conflict.
As for the settelments - why does 1.2 million Israeli Arabs aren't a problem, and 200k Jews in the disputed territories are?
The day Palestinians will be willing to accept the 200k Jews in the West Bank and Gaza, as Israel is willing to accept 1.2 million Israeli Arabs, I will be convinced that they truly want peace.

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#44    Seraphina

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Posted 23 February 2004 - 10:16 PM

QUOTE
The fact is that most of the Suicide Bombings are commited by middle-class Palestinians, not some poor an miserable ones. The poor ones are more occupied with taking care of their families.


If that is the case, why do your people have tanks rolling over their homes on a regular basis and butchering them? huh.gif  

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#45    Talon

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Posted 23 February 2004 - 11:30 PM

I'm hoping this doesn't get the thread closed, but here goes:

QUOTE
But ofcourse that doesn't matter to you, Talon, cuase you are such full of Jew-Hatred.


Iím assuming with all the edited outs you pasted more insults about me, oh well.

I do find it amusing that you call me a racist simply because I sympathise with the Palestinians yet do not say a single racist comment. Then you however are quoted as saying "The day Palestinian mothers will love their children more than they hate Jews, there will be true peace" basically demonising an entire race.

The fact is, there are a lot of people who instantly take any opposing argument to mean that Iím racist  blink.gif

Iíve been branded prejudice against the US because Iím a socialist
Iíve been branded prejudice against England because I want independence
Iíve been branded prejudice against Christians because Iím critical of creationism
Iíve been branded prejudice against Muslims because I think the UK is taking in too many asylum seekers
Now Iíve been branded prejudice against Jews because Iím critical of Israeli foreign policy

Iím kinda surprised nobody has come to my defence and stated ĎTalonís not prejudice, he hates all people equally!'  w00t.gif  Oh well, canít be helped.  sad.gif

But Iíve long ago grown a thick skin against the paranoia of certain people on this site, and my message to them goes like this; The day you can post in an argument against me without resorting to the old Ďyou disagree with me, so youíre a racistí is the day I will care about your opinions of me.  tongue.gif

Edited by Talon S., 23 February 2004 - 11:30 PM.

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