1578 replies to this topic

[docyabut2]

Plato

In this mountain there dwelt one of the earth born primeval men of that country, whose name was Evenor, and he had a wife named Leucippe, and they had an only daughter who was called Cleito. The maiden had already reached womanhood, when her father and mother died; Poseidon fell in love with her and had intercourse with her, and breaking the ground, inclosed the hill in which she dwelt all round, making alternate zones of sea and land larger and smaller, encircling one another; there were two of land and three of water, which he turned as with a lathe, each having its circumference equidistant every way from the centre, so that no man could get to the island, for ships and voyages were not as yet. He himself, being a god, found no difficulty in making special arrangements for the centre island, bringing up two springs of water from beneath the earth, one of warm water and the other of cold, and making every variety of food to spring up abundantly from the soil. He also begat and brought up five pairs of twin male children; and dividing the island of Atlantis into ten portions, he gave to the first-born of the eldest pair his mother's dwelling and the surrounding allotment, which was the largest and best, and made him king over the rest; the others he made princes, and gave them rule over many men, and a large territory. And he named them all; the eldest, who was the first king, he named Atlas, and after him the whole island and the ocean were called Atlantic. To his twin brother, who was born after him, and obtained as his lot the extremity of the island towards the Pillars of Heracles, facing the country which is now called the region of Gades in that part of the world,

http://classics.mit....to/critias.html


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadiz

Edited by docyabut2, 17 August 2012 - 12:32 AM.

[docyabut2]

The name "Atlanteans" was also given by the Greeks to the Phoenician colonies along the Barbary Coast of North Africa (i.e. around Mount Atlas). Diodorus Siculus describes their Titan-mythology and wars with the Libyan Amazones. Plato may have the same nation in mind, since he names the second Atlantian king Gadeiros after a famous Phoenician colony near the Straits of Gibraltar.

http://www.theoi.com...s/Atlantes.html



Diodorus Siculus, Library of History 4. 17. 1 (trans. Oldfather) (Greek historian C1st B.C.) :
"The cattle of Geryones, which pastured in the parts of Iberia which slope towards the ocean. And Herakles, realizing that the task called for preparation on a large scale and involved great hardships, gathered a notable armament and a multitude of soldiers as would be adequate for this expedition. For it had been noised abroad throughout all the inhabited world that Khrysaor (Golden-Sword), who received this appellation because of his wealth, was king over the whole of Iberia, and that he had three sons [the three-bodied Geryon] to fight at his side, who excelled in both strength of body and the deeds of courage which they displayed in contests of war; it was known, furthermore, that each of these sons had at his disposal great forces which were recruited from warlike tribes.

Stesichorus, Geryoneis Fragment S7 (from Strabo, Geography) (trans. Campbell, Vol. Greek Lyric III) (Greek lyric C7th to C6th B.C.) :
"The ancient writers seem to call the Baetis [a river in southern Spain, now called Guadalquivir] Tartessos, and Gadeira [Gades, now Cadiz] and the nearby island Erytheia. This, it is supposed, is why Stesichorus sould say of Geryon's herdman [Eurytion] that he was born ‘almost opposite famous Erytheia . . by the limitless silver-rooted [i.e. because silver was mined in the region] waters of the river Tartessos in the hollow of a rock.’"
http://www.theoi.com...anteGeryon.html



It was known, furthermore, that each of these sons had at his disposal great forces which were recruited from warlike tribes.

The  Atlantians  of western Libyan?

Edited by docyabut2, 17 August 2012 - 01:12 AM.

[docyabut2]

Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 2. 106 - 109 (trans. Aldrich) (Greek mythographer C2nd A.D.) :
"The tenth labour assigned to Herakles was to fetch the cattle of Geryon from Erytheia. Erytheia was an island, now called Gadeira, lying near Okeanos (Oceanus). On it lived Geryon, son of Khrysaor (Chrysaor) and Okeanos' daughter Kallirrhoe (Callirrhoe). He had the bodies of three men joined into one at the belly, but splitting into three again from the flanks and thighs down. He owned crimson-colored cattle, which were herded by Eurytion and protected by Orthos, the hound with two heads born of Ekhidna and Typhon. As Herakles proceeded through Europe to these cattle, he killed many wild animals, paid a visit to Libya, and went on to Tartessos where he set up two steles opposite each other at the borders of Europe and Libya, as commemorative markers of his trip. Then, when Helios (the Sun) made him hot as he proceeded, he aimed his bow at the god and stretched it; Helios was so surprised at his daring that he gave him a golden goblet, in which he crossed Okeanos.
When he reached Erytheia he camped on Mount Atlas. The dog smelled him there and went after him, but he struck it with his club, and when the cowherd Eurytion came to help the dog, he slew him as well. Menoetes, who was there tending the cattle of Haides, reported these events to Geryon, who overtook Herakles by the Athemos river as he was leading away the cattle. They fought, and Herakles slew Geryon with an arrow. He then loaded the cattle into the goblet, sailed back to Tartessos, and returned the goblet to Helios."


Parthenius, Love Romances 30 (trans. Gaselee) (Greek poet C1st B.C.) :
"Herakles, it is told, after he had taken the kine of Geryones from Erytheia, was wandering through the country of the Keltoi (Celts)."

Plato
In this mountain there dwelt one of the earth born primeval men of that country, whose name was Evenor, and he had a wife named Leucippe,and they had an only daughter who was called Cleito (Keltoi)

Poseidon fell in love with her and had intercourse with her, and breaking the ground,

Edited by docyabut2, 17 August 2012 - 01:21 AM.

[docyabut2]

How much more will come out  in the imaginaries of  Davinci`s paintings

Edited by docyabut2, 17 August 2012 - 01:52 AM.

[Anonymous User]

I remember hearing somewhere that "Atlantis" was originally only meant to be a hypothetical construct Plato invented for discussion between him and Aristotle.

[Biff Wellington]

I was told by someone that I was an Atlantean in a past life. I also particapated in a war between Atlantis & Egypt. I was on the losing side.

[Quaentum]

kmt_sesh, on 16 August 2012 - 11:25 PM, said:

A devoted belief in Atlantis requires the believer to set aside archaeological proof, textual evidence outside Plato's writing, or the formulation of something that might survive peer-review.

Atlantis is a myth. Plato never meant it as history.

The more people search, the less tangible Atlantis becomes—and the more bizarre the "theories" get.

(I know you already know this, Abe. I'm just using your post as an excuse to sound off.)

If someone would just invent a  critical thinking app things would be so much simpler.

[whitegandalf]

To Abramelin;

You are right, you have no reason to take my word for it. Also, I have no 100% for sure, bulletproof evidence, therefor you should be skeptical. In fact I am not 100% sure of the theory my self, only about 90%, and that can suddenly change to much lower as new knowledge comes up.

What I base the Theory on is mathematical calculations, logic and probabilities. Hard evidence of an naval civilization living on islands is difficult to find. Especially if 3 large tzunamies eraced all evidence from them. And the islands later sank into the sea. Much easier to find land based civilizations.

1. If we asume that Atlantis and Hyperborea really did exist, which I am not 100% sure of, it is more than probable that its Empire lied in the Atlantic Ocean somewhere. Looking at the name Atlantis and the people described living there (both places) and its possible descendents (britains, scandinavians and the netherland), and especially the descirptions of Hyperborea, their location is probably in the north sea. The descriptions of Hyperborea, also places it (hyperborea) above the arctic circle.

2. All great civilization had some help with nature, either with a great foodsource and the ability to store it for long time. Or it had a big valuable trading resource, like gold, copper.. The islands in the north sea had the cod which has been Europas single most sosial economic resource until 1800. And it could be stored and eaten. No other resource is greater elsewhere in the Atlantic sea or the whole world. One exeption is the western cod stock which can be harvested on the new foundland, canada, which is half the size of the eastern cod stock, but still large enough to create an empire. The vikings owned both 1000 years ago. Maybe Atlantis and Hyperborea did it too.

3. The Atlantians and Hyperboreans were great sefearers and had a large fleet. They had to, to rule the world. The fishing only last for 2 months in lofoten, the rest of the year they had the whole fishing fleet available for trade and troop movements and exploring.

4. Their knowledge of boats and their resource did not wanish with the tzunami. They would have rised again and again, as the Norway has shown trough the bronseage and viking period. There are not many large sea civilizations out there, but Norway  and its islands is one of them.

The people of these island had the opotunity to be a great world domenating civilization, but if they took the oppotunity is not proven yet. But unless the people of britain and scandinavia is extremly dumb in comparison to the rest of the world, i think they did.

It is now proven that the islands along Norways coast in the North sea was icefree during the whole iceage, because of the warm gulf stream. Dna research shows that the trees survived on these islands. The ice did not go far into the sea from the main land. Therefor people could have survived on these island, just like the trees, during the whole iceage. But if they dident, they could easily traveled and settled there 14-15.000 years ago long before scandinavia was icefree.

http://nortrib.com/content/view/6688/

So far no other suggestions or theories can provide proof of an ancient seafaring people with a incredible large resource, if someone know of any, let me know.

Also no other civilization have a self proclamed god status with magical weapons that can be logical explained. In their empire, they had a metal, called scandium, which can explain their magical weapons and protecting gears. In norway, not far away from the center of this empire you can find scandium in pure form 40% , in thortveitite which they could mix with aliminium (1% scandium, 99% aliminium) and other metals to create super hard material. The bulletproof jackets created from this material today is the worlds strongest, it can stand 20 bullets of point blank shooting with ak47. Much harder than kevlar and titanium. And much lighter in weight. There are only one other place in the whole world this metal can be easyliy found and extractet, and thats a island off east africa called madagaskar. Look it up, scandium, the most magical and strongest material in the universe. The russians used it under the cold war in their migs, and atomic rockets, so the rockets could break trough thick ice on the north pole. Today also used in golf clubs, baseball bats, bike frames, smith and wesson guns.. after the west learned its secrets after the cold war.  It is also entire possible that they built lightweight and strong flying gliders with this material. Therefor the gods often was shown with wings, because they had the ability to fly.

Fish oil was also used by the nazi to create bullets during ww2 in this area, instead of gun powder. It could also been used by the Atlantians to create primitive bombs, rockets and guns. Which would scare the living hell out of people around the world.

If it ever existed, it most probable was the north sea people. But i am not sure. It is only a belivable possibility. So far i have no evidence that it wasn¨t . But also no sure archeological that it was. We are only exploring different possibilities

New and construcive information is welcome

Sincerely

Edited by whitegandalf, 20 August 2012 - 08:05 PM.

[kmt_sesh]

whitegandalf, on 20 August 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

...

Hard evidence of an naval civilization living on islands is difficult to find. Especially if 3 large tzunamies eraced all evidence from them. And the islands later sank into the sea. Much easier to find land based civilizations.

...

Except for the tsunamis there is a terrific example of a naval civilization living on islands: the Minoans. They maintained a thalassocracy in the Aegean for a long period of time. The violent eruption on Thera in the late seventh century BCE wiped out their city there, and literally left that island a smoking, shattered ruin. Large portions of it sank into the sea.

This eruption did not end the Minoan hegemony of the Aegean then and there, but in all probability it was the beginning of the end. In another century it was the Mycenaeans who had supplanted and taken over Minoan centers of power.

Despite all of this there is a tremendous body of evidence which has helped us to understand the Minoans. It's a pity their written script, Linear A, has not been deciphered, but probably it will in time, and we will learn that much more about them.

But there's something equally important to consider, and that would be the likelihood of a sophisticated and powerful civilization being completely erased from the stage of history, such that "all evidence" of it is destroyed. Regardless of the forces that caused such destruction, it is quite simply impossible for all evidence to be wiped away. It would not happen. A sophisticated and powerful civilization, for example, would have direct and lasting influences on neighboring peoples, and plentiful evidence for the powerful civilization would be preserved in the material culture (if not written records) of the neighboring peoples.

An actual, authentic, and existing civilization of Atlantis is not realistic. There is no legitimate evidence to sustain Plato's allegorical tale as real history.

[cormac mac airt]

kmt_sesh, on 20 August 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

Except for the tsunamis there is a terrific example of a naval civilization living on islands: the Minoans. They maintained a thalassocracy in the Aegean for a long period of time. The violent eruption on Thera in the late seventh century BCE wiped out their city there, and literally left that island a smoking, shattered ruin. Large portions of it sank into the sea.

This eruption did not end the Minoan hegemony of the Aegean then and there, but in all probability it was the beginning of the end. In another century it was the Mycenaeans who had supplanted and taken over Minoan centers of power.

Despite all of this there is a tremendous body of evidence which has helped us to understand the Minoans. It's a pity their written script, Linear A, has not been deciphered, but probably it will in time, and we will learn that much more about them.

But there's something equally important to consider, and that would be the likelihood of a sophisticated and powerful civilization being completely erased from the stage of history, such that "all evidence" of it is destroyed. Regardless of the forces that caused such destruction, it is quite simply impossible for all evidence to be wiped away. It would not happen. A sophisticated and powerful civilization, for example, would have direct and lasting influences on neighboring peoples, and plentiful evidence for the powerful civilization would be preserved in the material culture (if not written records) of the neighboring peoples.

An actual, authentic, and existing civilization of Atlantis is not realistic. There is no legitimate evidence to sustain Plato's allegorical tale as real history.

Just a slight correction here kmt_sesh. Seventh century should read "seventeenth century".

cormac

[kmt_sesh]

cormac mac airt, on 20 August 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

Just a slight correction here kmt_sesh. Seventh century should read "seventeenth century".

cormac

Oh, man, what a stupid typo. Thanks for catching that, cormac.

My age is showing.

[whitegandalf]

Good point. But there is a big difference, The islands in the North Sea has sunk 50 to 100m from the atlantis period to today. Crete and the minoans have not sunken in the sea since its destruction. At least not by much. Their ruins are still over water. If the ruins were underwater, they would most likely not have been found.

Because of the relative cold climate in the north sea and cheap available wood building material they may have chosed not to build in stone in their home region. That does not make them any less advanced or powerfull. In varmer regions of their world empire they may have chosen to build in stone for a cooling effect.

They could have builded some walls, temples and palasses in stone, but they would have been deep underwater as nothing of doggerland is above water today, and only a couple of sharp high mountain peaks and a vey small high ground area is left of possible Hyperbora City Island. They were relative flat islands.

There are plenty of stories from the viking sagaes and myths that describes what platon, greek myth and the bible tells us. A flood, an advanced civilisation, a sunken island, gods and giants and a war between human and gods...

Much of their technologies was probably military secrets kept by the priests and was not shared with the common man, its allies or enemies. And was lost in a sort of libary. It says in the viking myth that they looked for it but didnt find it. They called it for the the gods golden playbricks.

The old testament of the vikings for those interested.. Before and after the flood.

http://www.nordic-li...nmh/voluspa.htm

Edited by whitegandalf, 21 August 2012 - 12:17 AM.

[cormac mac airt]

Quote

The islands in the North Sea has sunk 50 to 100m from the atlantis period to today.

The islands in the North Sea aren't where Plato said Atlantis was nor did they subside at the time that Plato claimed, so really aren't relevant to the discussion of Atlantis.

Quote

Crete and the minoans have not sunken in the sea since its destruction.

However, close to half of the island of Santorini collapsed into the sea after the volcanoes eruption.

Quote

There are plenty of stories from the viking sagaes and myths that describes what platon, greek myth and the bible tells us.

The problem with this is that Plato gives a timeframe and location, where the actual evidence shows there was nothing remotely like his story existing. The Greek myths don't actually give a timeframe and the Biblical chronologies plus the Hebrews own calendar system place the "Great Flood" in the 3rd millenium BC. So what you've got is several bits of unrelated information you're trying to rationalize as Atlantis. It doesn't work. On top of all that, Plato describes Atlantis as a Bronze Age society which obviously didn't exist c.9600 BC.

cormac

[Likely Guy]

Anyone can blanket this statement with lines and lines that regard Plato as an 'historical resource'. He never was, an he never pretended to be.

It was a cultural allegory about hubrus.

[cormac mac airt]

Likely Guy, on 21 August 2012 - 02:24 AM, said:

Anyone can blanket this statement with lines and lines that regard Plato as an 'historical resource'. He never was, an he never pretended to be.

It was a cultural allegory about hubrus.

Most of us know this, but still there are some who will try to reinterpret what Plato said in order to rationalize Atlantis into existance. Talk about desperately wanting something to be true.

cormac