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I want A debunker to try to Debunk this


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#16    Cradle of Fish

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 06:12 AM

I'll debunk it without even watching it.

To believe that you also have to believe:

1) George W. Bush and his administration, who have mismanaged two wars, one horribly, while neglecting the other, and was partially responsible for the aftermath of Katrina, could have organised something like this and not have one single hint escape. You also have to believe that one of the most corrupt administrations ever, with all it's scandals and crooks could have kept the secret for at least seven years, without some disillusioned crook trying to get the story out. And if you don't believe that, you have to believe in some mythical secret society that has absolutely no evidence for it's existance. And I'm sorry, but paranoid rantings trying to link the seal on the American dollar bill to rich and private(nothing wrong with wanting privacy) businessmen.

2) You have to believe that the US is more of a threat to your life than the global and violent Islamic radical movement, responsible for the Madrid and London bombings, embassy bombings in africa, Pan Am flight 103, murdering Theo van Gogh and attempting to murder Salman Rushdie, not to mention random acts of violence around the world, and within their own country.

You have every right to believe whatever you want, no matter how contradictory it is to reality, but don't expect anyone to be convinced.

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#17    mn001

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 06:41 AM

I don't know how anyone can not think theres something fishy about what happened on 9/11. There are too many things that can't be rationalized.


#18    Obviousman

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 07:53 AM

mn001 on Jun 20 2008, 04:41 PM, said:

I don't know how anyone can not think theres something fishy about what happened on 9/11. There are too many things that can't be rationalized.


This is a concept I see many "truthers" failing to understand. Is the government hiding something? Yes. They are hiding systemic failures and / or incompetencies associated with personnel, that the government wishes to avoid making public. They are doing what governments always do. That's why I do support further investigation into what happened.

I do NOT believe the government had anything to do with organising / facilitating 9/11.

The use of the term "...something fishy..." is so ambiguous. Apologies, but it says to me that you haven't really CHECKED on facets of 9/11; you have just heard something and it "sounds right".

Have you spoken to building engineers who have the necessary skills to speak authoritatively about building collapse? I - have - several of them.

Have you spoken to F-15 / F-16 pilots about alert states and response times? I have - several of them.

(I also have 20+ years of aviation experience myself, as aircrew, air traffic control, and operations).

Have you spoken to airline pilots (heavys - 747 / 757 / 767 / A300, etc) about what happened? I have - many of them.

There is NOTHING "fishy" about 9/11.




#19    Admiral Rhubarb

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 08:21 AM

Enigma wrapped in a puzzle on Jun 19 2008, 10:48 PM, said:

This post should be removed!

You did not even watch the clip, if you posted this.  They have interviews with engineers, demo specialists, workers who were in the basement of the towers before they collapsed and many more.  This movie illustrates exactly how these building were brought down.  

Watch the movie before you post again.  This movie is an hour and a half long and you did not even have time to watch it yet.

let me get this straight? You want the "debunkers" to sit through a hour and a half of conspiratorial outpourings (with, for some reason, it appears, Slovak subtitles), otherwise their opnions are not valid and ought to be removed.

Yup, the ttruth movement, standing up for freedom of speech.

huh.gif

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#20    chrisfreak

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 08:54 AM

Can't you just summarize the video?


#21    theSOURCE

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 10:16 AM

chrisfreak on Jun 20 2008, 02:54 AM, said:

Can't you just summarize the video?


Apparently not because, heaven forbid, it would require actual thought about the subject, and that may lead to the conclusion that, just perhaps, it may all be a bunch of crap.




#22    Rosewin

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 10:45 AM

jaylemurph on Jun 19 2008, 08:50 PM, said:

Unlike a lot of CTers 'round here -- hell, unlike /me/ -- I've never once seen MID talk when he has no idea what he's talking about. Perhaps if you'd like to bring up specific points with him, you'd find that out.

I might also add that (by virtue of you posting and not being a small, greasy spot) you weren't /at/ the WTC when they fell to say definitively whether or not they came down by the action of jet-fueled fire, so you might want to be a little more circumspect in how you phrase things. Especially if you want to pursue a discussion with MID.

--Jaylemurph


Reread MID's first post and look closely at his first and last comments in that post. It is unlikely anyone would want to carry out a discussion with him, not me that is for sure.

Well on topic I do know for sure that the claim that these terrorist learn how to fly these planes at small flight schools is rather dubious. The flight simulators needed to learn to fly such huge planes are not simply located at small flight schools. So that leads me to conclude that either the 'terrorists' were not flying the planes or they had additional training only a few companies in the world could offer them.

I have also seen the videos of the towers falling, it was a controlled demolition most likely. Does it matter what other people think even if they do not believe such facts? No, cause in the end the majority of people do not think at all, and do not have an opinion one way or another, they simply believe whatever their governments tells them to without question.

Edited by Clovis, 20 June 2008 - 10:47 AM.


#23    Admiral Rhubarb

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 11:18 AM

Clovis on Jun 20 2008, 11:45 AM, said:

Reread MID's first post and look closely at his first and last comments in that post. It is unlikely anyone would want to carry out a discussion with him, not me that is for sure.

Well on topic I do know for sure that the claim that these terrorist learn how to fly these planes at small flight schools is rather dubious. The flight simulators needed to learn to fly such huge planes are not simply located at small flight schools. So that leads me to conclude that either the 'terrorists' were not flying the planes or they had additional training only a few companies in the world could offer them.

I have also seen the videos of the towers falling, it was a controlled demolition most likely. Does it matter what other people think even if they do not believe such facts? No, cause in the end the majority of people do not think at all, and do not have an opinion one way or another, they simply believe whatever their governments tells them to without question.

i did reread his post. it seemed to sum it up in a nutshell, i thought.

As regards the points you've mentioned, I do think that some parts of them might be worth closer investigation; but I don't know if the video under discussion merely considers those points, or whether it goes into the whole "switched-planes-and-vast-government-conspiracy" line of argument that so many spend so much of their time arguing, and, at an hour and a half long, I don't think I'd have the willpower to find out.

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#24    Rosewin

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 11:37 AM

I did not see the video either. I doubt the points I brought up were in the video..well not the one about flight simulator accessibility at least. Zeitgeist did a good enough job convincing me that something is amiss not sure if I want to invest that much time in another video either. But I do think calling something simply nonsense, regardless of what people think, is either tactful or signified any intelligence. Maybe it is acceptable at the pub when people are half drunk but that type of language is not impressive in the least to me when discussing such a serious topic but that is just my view.


#25    Siara

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 12:21 PM

hydro on Jun 20 2008, 12:20 AM, said:

umm, why would it have to melt the steel in order to collapse? if you take away a percentage of the strength by heating the steel it would not be able to hold the weight. common sense man, but for the sake of arguement lets just say, it didnt melt the steel but instead warped the steel, or made it eaiser to bend.


Exactly.  As someone who welds steel on a daily basis I can tell you that the temperature at which steel loses its strength is WAY below the melting point.



#26    Obviousman

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 02:37 PM

Clovis on Jun 20 2008, 08:45 PM, said:

Well on topic I do know for sure that the claim that these terrorist learn how to fly these planes at small flight schools is rather dubious. The flight simulators needed to learn to fly such huge planes are not simply located at small flight schools. So that leads me to conclude that either the 'terrorists' were not flying the planes or they had additional training only a few companies in the world could offer them.


They had CPLs, and then did sim training at other locations. Do you know what you know what you are claiming? How many sim hours do you have? How many instructional hours do you have? I would say zero for each, because the questions you ask indicate an unfamiliarity with aviation.


Clovis on Jun 20 2008, 08:45 PM, said:

I have also seen the videos of the towers falling, it was a controlled demolition most likely. Does it matter what other people think even if they do not believe such facts? No, cause in the end the majority of people do not think at all, and do not have an opinion one way or another, they simply believe whatever their governments tells them to without question.


Are you an expert in CD? I doubt it. These people, however, are:

http://www.implosionworld.com/Article-WTC%...209-8-06%20.pdf




#27    Enigma wrapped in a puzzle

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 03:12 PM

Cradle of Fish on Jun 20 2008, 06:12 AM, said:

I'll debunk it without even watching it.

To believe that you also have to believe:

1) George W. Bush and his administration, who have mismanaged two wars, one horribly, while neglecting the other, and was partially responsible for the aftermath of Katrina, could have organized something like this and not have one single hint escape. You also have to believe that one of the most corrupt administrations ever, with all it's scandals and crooks could have kept the secret for at least seven years, without some disillusioned crook trying to get the story out. And if you don't believe that, you have to believe in some mythical secret society that has absolutely no evidence for it's existance. And I'm sorry, but paranoid rantings trying to link the seal on the American dollar bill to rich and private(nothing wrong with wanting privacy) businessmen.

2) You have to believe that the US is more of a threat to your life than the global and violent Islamic radical movement, responsible for the Madrid and London bombings, embassy bombings in africa, Pan Am flight 103, murdering Theo van Gogh and attempting to murder Salman Rushdie, not to mention random acts of violence around the world, and within their own country.

You have every right to believe whatever you want, no matter how contradictory it is to reality, but don't expect anyone to be convinced.



Here's the problem with your post....


Again if you watched the video this is what they address.  

A man by the name of Steve Forbes who worked on the 107th floor of the 2nd tower said that the weekend before the attacks they had the buildings power cut off for an entire weekend.  He said "which is unprecedented for a building like this and to have so much computer equipment in".   He also said that the week prior to the attacks he would here heavy duty equipment being used on the floors above him yet no one could tell him what it was.  G.W. Bush's brother was hired to put in a 8.6 Million dollar security system in the World Trade Center Towers in 2000.  Would this not be the ideal time to put in the lines for the Demo?   The official story continues to say that WTC #7 was not brought down by demo, but this video shows about 4 different videos of 4 different groups stating they are about to bring down building 7 evacuate the area.  How would they have got the demo in there and ready on the same day?  The video also points out that building 7 housed thousands of crucial documents for Enron and Worldcom legal case.  It also stated that a 70 Billion dollar lawsuit for Enron was in the works due to a scandal and all the documents were in that building.

Why are there so many anomalies to debunk?  Why is there so much to debate?  If this happened the way the official story says it did and it is logical then we would not be talking about it.  The fact is we have an illogical story for a huge Catastrophe.  

Cradlefish your point is that they are not capable of pulling this off because Bush is incompetent.   Well my answer is that if 30% of the population feel that 9/11 was an inside job with more and more people every day adding to that 30%.   Then I would say they didn't pull it off.

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#28    Enigma wrapped in a puzzle

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 03:15 PM

747400 on Jun 20 2008, 08:21 AM, said:

let me get this straight? You want the "debunkers" to sit through a hour and a half of conspiratorial outpourings (with, for some reason, it appears, Slovak subtitles), otherwise their opnions are not valid and ought to be removed.

Yup, the ttruth movement, standing up for freedom of speech.

huh.gif



Your smart.....


Is it to much to ask someone to watch the video before they start arguing with me.  Let me put it into perspective for you.   Let say you love playing dungeons and dragons (right?).   And I have never played it before but I decide I know everything about it and I tell you how we are going to play.  Would you want me to learn the game first or would you just go along with how I decided to play?

Pretty simple  w00t.gif

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#29    Enigma wrapped in a puzzle

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 03:18 PM

[quote name='Clovis' date='Jun 20 2008, 10:45 AM' post='2352547']
Reread MID's first post and look closely at his first and last comments in that post. It is unlikely anyone would want to carry out a discussion with him, not me that is for sure.

Exactly with his closed mind about so many subjects I really do not care if he posts or not.  What upsets me about him is that he knows everything!!  Doesn't even need to watch the video.  His opinion on the subject is seen one 9/11 thread you've seen them all.  That is why I want him to sit his butt through that video before he posts again.

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#30    Enigma wrapped in a puzzle

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 03:23 PM

747400 on Jun 20 2008, 11:18 AM, said:

i did reread his post. it seemed to sum it up in a nutshell, i thought.

As regards the points you've mentioned, I do think that some parts of them might be worth closer investigation; but I don't know if the video under discussion merely considers those points, or whether it goes into the whole "switched-planes-and-vast-government-conspiracy" line of argument that so many spend so much of their time arguing, and, at an hour and a half long, I don't think I'd have the willpower to find out.



This video does not even discuss the flight patterns or the terrorists.  It talks almost exclusively about the how the demo was used and a very strong idea on how it was put into place.   It also talks to several engineers and even the interview with the trade center architect/engineer.  It also has eye witness account from people who work in the offices and the basement workers.   There is alot more and I highly recommend watching it.

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