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What did Tesla mean?


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#31    Skep B

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 02:47 AM

Fine lien between genius and insanity...

thou I assume he meant when those who study science, start taking the spiritual into account.

I dunno, the guy was a borderline supervillain, maybe he just decided to mess w/ the world for what Edison did to him.

I've seen **** that'll turn you WHITE!


#32    and then

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 03:26 AM

Perhaps he had a flash of inspiration into what we think of as Noetic sciences today.

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  for what could be, the darkest age...

#33    badeskov

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 03:50 AM

View PostSkepticalB, on 14 August 2013 - 02:47 AM, said:

Fine lien between genius and insanity...

thou I assume he meant when those who study science, start taking the spiritual into account.

I dunno, the guy was a borderline supervillain, maybe he just decided to mess w/ the world for what Edison did to him.

The fellow turned pretty much hopping mad and he was well beyond border line.

Cheers,
Badeskov

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#34    RabidCat

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 04:04 AM

View PostSag!ttarius, on 24 June 2008 - 12:40 AM, said:

I wish I knew what Tesla meant, but I figure he actually referred to ethereal. Started studying Tesla's work for my MSc. thesis 15 years ago hoping to recreate his zero point energy. Much of what is published today is incorrect on the technical side, because of (insert oil industry, government, illuminati conspiracy theories here...)... Regardless, I still poke around even today in my retirement spare time. Kind of my own search for the Holy Grail style_emoticons/default/original.gif
Elucidate, please, two items, if you will:
1.  Your definition of "ethereal".  Do you refer to his spiritual/mental (your discretion) beliefs or his thinking on the aether?
2.  Please expand on "much of what is published today is incorrect on the technical side..."

I would appreciate your thoughts on these two items.  I do have my own opinions thereon, btw.  Usually, my opinions start something of an argument, especially with those who have that "hard academic glaze" and aren't really conversant with the engineering world, at least my part of the engineering world (electronics, msee hardware, firmware, microcode, software).  I've also studied Tesla extensively from the time I was 7 or so, with Oudin-Tesla coil and so forth under my belt by age 8.

Funny thing happened to me on the way home from Nam in '69.  I was on a MATS flight, was assigned a seat next to a looey commander (USN).  The guy was pretty bored with me in general (he was apparently some sort of Navy Intelligence -contradiction in terms - and I had just come from communications as HS6 didn't know what to do with me) until I mentioned a Tesla thing I fiddled around with when younger, that I had read about this thing in the local public library.  The cdr became all ears, started asking questions about the thing, and wanted to know where that library was (still is); at that point, the red flags were out in full force and I took him on a journey to a library a few thousand miles away.  I hope he found it.  I have never seen that book anywhere else, it was buried in the basement where no one was allowed (but Ms. C. was a personal friend of this kid and knew I treated books with reverence, allowing me free run of the whole library).

So I'm curious.


#35    simplybill

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 04:14 AM

Another perspective, from the physicist Gerald Schroeder:

"The startling, totally counterintuitive, yet scientifically proven discoveries of physics reveal that our world, at it's deepest level, is not built of tangible discrete objects. Rather, when we look closely, we find that reality is as gossamer as a thought, that existence is closer to being an association of ideas than a conglomeration of atoms. The dogmatic myth of materialism has been proven to be wanting, more fantasy than fact. ....In the words of Nobel laureate and biologist George Wald, 'The stuff of which physical reality is composed is mind-stuff. It is mind that has composed a physical universe.' "


Every warrior is happy when his enemies flee before him, but much more blessed is the man to whom his fiercest enemies can come with confidence, knowing beforehand they will be received with love.
Richard Wurmbrand in Reaching Toward the Heights.

#36    RabidCat

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 02:01 PM

View Postbadeskov, on 14 August 2013 - 03:50 AM, said:

The fellow turned pretty much hopping mad and he was well beyond border line.

Cheers,
Badeskov
Your opinion only, and an opinion not shared by an increasing number of professionals in electronics.  The misconception that Tesla lost it is directly traceable to horses' asses such as J. P. Morgan.


#37    White Unicorn

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 04:49 PM

View PostRabidCat, on 14 August 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

Your opinion only, and an opinion not shared by an increasing number of professionals in electronics.  The misconception that Tesla lost it is directly traceable to horses' asses such as J. P. Morgan.

JP Morgan had rights to Tesla's pattons who was contracted and at Morgan's mercy financially. JP Morgan was a just a cunning and  greedy pawn funded by a power hungry group of world elite.  In Colorado Tesla proved he was successful in tapping the energy from the atmosphere and transmitting it. He wanted to bring free power and light to all the countries of the world. The energy was produced by the rotation of the earth itself,  an unending free source of power and not limited to powering a few cities like the falls or a river in producing electric.  JP Morgan said "where are the meters and the lines that will bring us revenue? We need to have control over the power not give it away."  It was a sad day for the world. They say Tesla gave sold some workable  technology to Germans and after that, all his valuable experiments were destroyed under the concept that there was a worldwide "death beam" being built for the sake of the German superiority. I believe a lot of his successful workable discoveries went classified and those parts that were released were mixed with past failed experiments and things to make him appear more crazy than he really was for national security reasons.


#38    RabidCat

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 05:53 PM

View PostWhite Unicorn, on 14 August 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

JP Morgan had rights to Tesla's pattons who was contracted and at Morgan's mercy financially. JP Morgan was a just a cunning and  greedy pawn funded by a power hungry group of world elite.  In Colorado Tesla proved he was successful in tapping the energy from the atmosphere and transmitting it. He wanted to bring free power and light to all the countries of the world. The energy was produced by the rotation of the earth itself,  an unending free source of power and not limited to powering a few cities like the falls or a river in producing electric.  JP Morgan said "where are the meters and the lines that will bring us revenue? We need to have control over the power not give it away."  It was a sad day for the world. They say Tesla gave sold some workable  technology to Germans and after that, all his valuable experiments were destroyed under the concept that there was a worldwide "death beam" being built for the sake of the German superiority. I believe a lot of his successful workable discoveries went classified and those parts that were released were mixed with past failed experiments and things to make him appear more crazy than he really was for national security reasons.
Good, but not entirely accurate.  Tesla himself stopped patenting after being advised by lawyers that the fine print of Morgan's contracts gave Morgan 51% rights to all Tesla's patents, past and future, according to some legal scripts I've read from the time.  Tesla instantly withdrew patent applications pending and destroyed those, and refused to patent anything afterwards.  Morgan ordered the dismantling of Wardenclyffe and the other labs Tesla had to hide all of it from public scrutiny.

There are quite a number of Tesla's previous patents that are still available.  If a knowledgeable person is willing to peruse those patents and connect all the dots, what is contained within is utterly amazing.  One thing is that Tesla's research was primarily oriented towards electric fields, especially high potential fields, and not so much magnetics later on.  This transference was due to his curiosity about certain phenomena he notice while he re-engineered the DC workings of Edison's plants.  Specifically, Tesla noticed that when the big switches were thrown and the higher voltage applied to transmission lines, large fields were produced prior to current beginning its flow.  This fact (easily verifiable if one wishes to play with such things)led him to theorize and prove much about electric fields and was the basis of Wardenclyffe and his power transmission ideas.  His work was oriented in a direction modern physics cannot possibly take, since theoretical physics is based on either incorrect or incomplete theory.  Remember, up until around 1900, quantum physics did not exist, and most research included the 'aether' as a transmission medium, besides 'aether' being the primary building block of the universe.  Know too that those mathematical bases developed from the early 1700s to present are in fact still used in quantum, with one glaring difficulty: those theories were transmutated into particle physics, and became such things as the Fourier Transformation to fit the then current and growing particle physics.  Unfortunately for quantum theory, some aspects were in error in the originals, and the transformations had to include the errors.  One primary error was with the James Clerk Maxwell equations: Maxwell, since there was no means to measure longitudinal waves, chose to ignore them, in line with the concept that if it can't be measured it can't exist.  We know now, or at least those of us who play with electrical/electronic devices do, that scalar or longitudinal waves are an important component of any waveform.  There cannot be transverse waves without scalar waves, and vice versa.

It's also verifiable to those with open minds that quantum physics cannot come to terms with Newton's Third Law, or at least no one has been able to solve the conundrum.  Tesla's physics didn't have particles, or matter of any type; instead, he felt everything was based on waves and fields, and matter was nothing more than twisty energy folding back upon itself.  Oddly enough, this theory led him to believe that by cracking this tightly folded energy form, he could liberate enough energy to cause massive amounts to be available, as in nuclear weapons.  Gee whiz!  So the guy was a nut?  Hell, he developed his theories long before Oppenheimer et al produced nuclear fission, and it can easily be said that had Tesla continued, he would have been able to produce such weapons using different theory.

Incidentally, there are quite a number (also growing) of physicist who are disenchanted with the problems quantum physics seems to be having, and have begun to reexamine the 'aether' theory.  Strange as it may be to many, there are far fewer problems with proving 'aether' theory than with proving quantum physics, starting right from the beginning.  First of all, 'aether' doesn't need magical qualities as proposed by my erstwhile friends in physics such as Feynmann.

I go now.  For a while.


#39    scowl

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 03:59 PM

I just read a biography of Telsa. I think a lot of his kookier ideas were so vague that later on fans of his shoehorned them into actual theories of quantum physics that were later developed by people who understood what they were. I didn't see him getting anywhere close to an understanding of nuclear physics.

His final goal of transmitting significant power without wires showed complete ignorance of electrical fields, complete ignorance of safety, and complete ignorance of how the business world works -- who would sell energy that could be stolen? His pleading letters to Morgan sound more like a heartbroken teenager than a man of science. Just imagine old man J.P. Morgan reading Tesla writing that he cried himself to sleep every night on a pillow soaked with tears!

Quote

Specifically, Tesla noticed that when the big switches were thrown and the higher voltage applied to transmission lines, large fields were produced prior to current beginning its flow.  This fact (easily verifiable if one wishes to play with such things)led him to theorize and prove much about electric fields and was the basis of Wardenclyffe and his power transmission ideas.

Actually the "transformer" was invented by Michael Faraday and had been in use for arc lighting while Tesla was still in school.


#40    scowl

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 04:13 PM

View PostWhite Unicorn, on 14 August 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

JP Morgan had rights to Tesla's pattons who was contracted and at Morgan's mercy financially. JP Morgan was a just a cunning and  greedy pawn funded by a power hungry group of world elite.  In Colorado Tesla proved he was successful in tapping the energy from the atmosphere and transmitting it. He wanted to bring free power and light to all the countries of the world. The energy was produced by the rotation of the earth itself,  an unending free source of power and not limited to powering a few cities like the falls or a river in producing electric.

Where did you read this nonsense? Tesla was able to get a few lightening strikes on his 200 foot pole in Colorado but he was never able to transmit this power. Tesla jumped to the conclusion that the atmosphere was full of electrical energy all the time and it was just a matter of tapping into it. He was completely wrong.

Lightening is not caused by the rotation of the Earth and this claim of "an unending free source of power" is complete bunk. Any scientist can tell you this.

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JP Morgan said "where are the meters and the lines that will bring us revenue? We need to have control over the power not give it away."  It was a sad day for the world.

Wow, someone who wanted to sell a product instead of give it away for free! That's pure evil!

Quote

They say Tesla gave sold some workable  technology to Germans and after that, all his valuable experiments were destroyed under the concept that there was a worldwide "death beam" being built for the sake of the German superiority. I believe a lot of his successful workable discoveries went classified and those parts that were released were mixed with past failed experiments and things to make him appear more crazy than he really was for national security reasons.

In a typical act of Tesla desperation, he went to governments claiming that he could make a "death ray" for them. He couldn't. When it was painfully obvious that he was unable to do this, governments stopping wasting their money on his fantasy.


#41    White Unicorn

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 07:18 PM

View Postscowl, on 15 August 2013 - 04:13 PM, said:

Where did you read this nonsense? Tesla was able to get a few lightening strikes on his 200 foot pole in Colorado but he was never able to transmit this power. Tesla jumped to the conclusion that the atmosphere was full of electrical energy all the time and it was just a matter of tapping into it. He was completely wrong.

Lightening is not caused by the rotation of the Earth and this claim of "an unending free source of power" is complete bunk. Any scientist can tell you this.



Wow, someone who wanted to sell a product instead of give it away for free! That's pure evil!



In a typical act of Tesla desperation, he went to governments claiming that he could make a "death ray" for them. He couldn't. When it was painfully obvious that he was unable to do this, governments stopping wasting their money on his fantasy.

He  lit light bulbs with out wires he created the first workable "drones" radio controlled automatons. These were part his earlier experiments with general electricy and radio waves, those are the ones that generally went published. Some of his other writings deal with forces way beyond general electromagnetism and the manipulation of ionosphere and other forms of energy fields. Like it or not he was a driven genus who ended up alcoholic because of his battle with morality of how to deal with the ultimate good or evil to the world his other discoveries could bring.

"They said" I don't believe Tesla said he could make a death ray,  that was propagada to discredit all his work. He did think something that way could be created by other scientists from some of his more major discoveries. US national security was involved after his death and they recovered some of his papers for their own RD and I believe that shows he had a lot more in his possession we generally know about. Some other research notes and theories went missing and taken elsewhere than the US, this gave them another reason to claim he was a traitor and have general public become disinterested in his research.

If you're lucky enough to see some of HIS remaining notes tucked away in some of the museums of the world, you'd be amazed  about the subjects he wrote about, it's far from just harvesting lightning with a rod or his old patents!

We generally only know pieces of the Tesla stories that are strewn with modern BS myths created from his brilliant ideas and 24/7 devotion to research and discovery.  I don't think we can even speculate about his work being succesful or not since a lot of it hasn't been published to this day!


#42    RabidCat

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 04:00 AM

View Postscowl, on 15 August 2013 - 03:59 PM, said:

I just read a biography of Telsa. I think a lot of his kookier ideas were so vague that later on fans of his shoehorned them into actual theories of quantum physics that were later developed by people who understood what they were. I didn't see him getting anywhere close to an understanding of nuclear physics.

His final goal of transmitting significant power without wires showed complete ignorance of electrical fields, complete ignorance of safety, and complete ignorance of how the business world works -- who would sell energy that could be stolen? His pleading letters to Morgan sound more like a heartbroken teenager than a man of science. Just imagine old man J.P. Morgan reading Tesla writing that he cried himself to sleep every night on a pillow soaked with tears!



Actually the "transformer" was invented by Michael Faraday and had been in use for arc lighting while Tesla was still in school.
Ah.  Gather 'round, folks.  We have in our midst an expert on Tesla's life (he read a bio), meteorology, nuclear physics, field and wave theory, and the history of physics.  He will inform us of the reality.

So here are some questions from this quarter:
Since Tesla knew nothing of fields and/or waves, how is it that he was able to design lighting systems in his labs that used high potential e-fields, along with developing the gas tubes he used for the excited lighting?  I'm really curious about that.
Knowing nothing about fields, how is it that Tesla was able to utilize a scalar wave with superimposed high frequency/high voltage transverse waves aimed at a metal plate and produce Hall Effect usable electric currents?
Since Tesla didn't know about fields, how is it he was able to design an inductor whose properties are at minimum twice as efficient, thereby developing twice the field while decreasing the reverse emf dramatically?  This particular device is left out of all modern mainsream electronics since there are still no equations I'm aware of that allow calculation of inductance and so forth.
Among many others, but at this point I'll settle for answers to the above, save one more.  Yes, it is well known Tesla did not invent the transformer: no one states he did so.  However, I would like an explanation of how a person who knows nothing of fields could possibly design a "rectifying transformer", a device which output DC when AC was the input, and you could, for the others out there, explain precisely how said transformer works, since it used no diodes or other components to produce the rectified current type.

I'm also interested in these kookier ideas.  Pray tell, what are those?  Would some be such things as the Tesla turbine, the one-way valvular conduit, the self-exciting modifications to the Forbes generator and the like?  Or perhaps something else.  At minimum, you should clue all of us ignorant souls about this.

As to meteorology, since you are the expert, can you explain why it is that the electric differential between ionosphere and earth surface has been measured at roughly 170,000 volts?  If you actually do some research instead of coming off the wall with your nincompoop commentary, you will find numbers that are per meter differentials.  And yes, there is a constant in the atmosphere, and yes it is partially caused by earth rotation, along with variable winds, ocean currents and so forth.  Before you make statements of the sort, you really should check out your sources and make sure they are correct, assuming you actually have sources.  From your commentary, I seriously doubt that you can make a firm statement about "any scientist can tell you that", since that is pure bunk.

As to nuclear physics, if you actually read about it, you will find that it has its basis right about the time Tesla lived, and virtually every single item can be traced to its origins within the science of the time, aether physics.  Too, it can be stated that aether physics provides more reasonable explanations that does the current nuclear physics, and by the time of his professional exit, Tesla had already developed a means to disrupt the energy of the atom, which he demonstrated at physics conventions in Germany, France, the UK (then England, at the Royal Academy of Sciences), and the US.  But you should know that, since you read his bio, right?  Incidentally, it's a short step from merely disrupting a small amount of atmosphere to constructing an explosive device, but then, you probably know that too.

Although Tesla never disclosed his theory on the so-called "death ray", there is a group whose research includes same.  In theory, and only from his very limited description, it has been deemed possible to construct a charged particle beam weapon of the type Tesla described, although without his knowledge of fields and the use of aether theory, it becomes a much more complex endeavor.

Really, it seems to me, sir, that you have no idea what you're writing about.  Further, your use of logical fallacy shows your general ignorance of any of the subjects you mention.  No one with reasoning power will accept logical fallacy as proof: you must have impeccable logic.  "Man can swim, fish can swim, therefore man is a fish" just doesn't get it.


#43    scowl

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 05:54 PM

View PostRabidCat, on 16 August 2013 - 04:00 AM, said:

Ah.  Gather 'round, folks.  We have in our midst an expert on Tesla's life (he read a bio), meteorology, nuclear physics, field and wave theory, and the history of physics.  He will inform us of the reality.

And, people, please believe that not all fans of Tesla have this condescending smug attitude.

Quote

Since Tesla knew nothing of fields and/or waves, how is it that he was able to design lighting systems in his labs that used high potential e-fields, along with developing the gas tubes he used for the excited lighting?  I'm really curious about that.

Because this knowledge is not necessary. For example, fire is the release of stored chemical energy from a substance. We had been using this fire for tens of thousands of years before we know anything about energy.

Quote

Knowing nothing about fields, how is it that Tesla was able to utilize a scalar wave with superimposed high frequency/high voltage transverse waves aimed at a metal plate and produce Hall Effect usable electric currents?

Like many inventors, Tesla was a tinkerer, constantly trying experiments with absolutely no theory behind them. That's how Edison (or DeForest, depending on who you believe) discovered that electrons will "boil" off hot plates. Like his fellow inventor Edison, he had only the vaguest understanding of electricity so there was no way for either of them to understand the significance of what they were observing so they went on to the next experiment. That's why this is called the "Hall Effect" named after the physicist who discovered it and studied it while Tesla was still in school.

Quote

Since Tesla didn't know about fields, how is it he was able to design an inductor whose properties are at minimum twice as efficient, thereby developing twice the field while decreasing the reverse emf dramatically?  This particular device is left out of all modern mainsream electronics since there are still no equations I'm aware of that allow calculation of inductance and so forth.

Like many inventors, Tesla was a tinkerer, constantly trying to new materials with no theory to direct them. Tesla stumbled upon this. Inductance is one of the best understood properties of electricity!

Quote

Among many others, but at this point I'll settle for answers to the above, save one more.  Yes, it is well known Tesla did not invent the transformer: no one states he did so.  However, I would like an explanation of how a person who knows nothing of fields could possibly design a "rectifying transformer", a device which output DC when AC was the input, and you could, for the others out there, explain precisely how said transformer works, since it used no diodes or other components to produce the rectified current type.

Simple: Tesla did not invent the rectifier. They were developed by Westinghouse in the 1880's under the name "Westector". This was important because some applications like streetcars required DC so hundreds of Westectors were installed when cities got AC power. Tesla was under contract by Westinghouse during this period so if he had come up with a better system, they would have used it.

Quote

I'm also interested in these kookier ideas.  Pray tell, what are those?  Would some be such things as the Tesla turbine, the one-way valvular conduit, the self-exciting modifications to the Forbes generator and the like?  Or perhaps something else.  At minimum, you should clue all of us ignorant souls about this.

You already did a fine job of describing his kooky ideas. After the induction motor, Tesla never implemented another single useful device. Here's a great example. He was using fluorescent tubes to generate "cool" light with high frequency AC. A variation of these tubes would become the primary lighting for the movie industry but since Tesla had no patience for developing useful products, that was left to Cooper Hewett who invented the mercury vapor bulb a few years later and became rich off of his patent. If Tesla had understood discharge lighting he could have made a useful product.

Quote

As to meteorology, since you are the expert, can you explain why it is that the electric differential between ionosphere and earth surface has been measured at roughly 170,000 volts?  If you actually do some research instead of coming off the wall with your nincompoop commentary, you will find numbers that are per meter differentials.

If you understood electricity, you would know that this "170,000 volts" number is meaningless since electrical potential in gases is measured in volts per cubic meter.

Quote

And yes, there is a constant in the atmosphere, and yes it is partially caused by earth rotation, along with variable winds, ocean currents and so forth.  Before you make statements of the sort, you really should check out your sources and make sure they are correct, assuming you actually have sources.  From your commentary, I seriously doubt that you can make a firm statement about "any scientist can tell you that", since that is pure bunk.

I checked my sources. They are correct. What are your sources again?

Quote

As to nuclear physics, if you actually read about it, you will find that it has its basis right about the time Tesla lived, and virtually every single item can be traced to its origins within the science of the time, aether physics.  Too, it can be stated that aether physics provides more reasonable explanations that does the current nuclear physics,

Did you not hear the ether physics was discarded almost a century ago? Because it doesn't work.

Quote

and by the time of his professional exit, Tesla had already developed a means to disrupt the energy of the atom, which he demonstrated at physics conventions in Germany, France, the UK (then England, at the Royal Academy of Sciences), and the US.

At the time of Tesla's professional exit, he barely had enough money to live on much less travel the globe. He was living off of a monthly handout from Westinghouse, no doubt crying himself to sleep as he had in the past. There is no listing of Tesla ever formally presenting anything to the Royal Academy of Sciences so this is yet another apocryphal story.

Quote

Although Tesla never disclosed his theory on the so-called "death ray", there is a group whose research includes same.  In theory, and only from his very limited description, it has been deemed possible to construct a charged particle beam weapon of the type Tesla described, although without his knowledge of fields and the use of aether theory, it becomes a much more complex endeavor.


Yes he did disclose his theory on his "death ray". It was supposed to shoot a series of small pellets propelled at high speed by a magnetic field. Since the world was already successfully propelling heavy explosive shells with chemical compounds, his electrical BB gun was completely redundant.

Quote

Really, it seems to me, sir, that you have no idea what you're writing about.  Further, your use of logical fallacy shows your general ignorance of any of the subjects you mention.  No one with reasoning power will accept logical fallacy as proof: you must have impeccable logic.  "Man can swim, fish can swim, therefore man is a fish" just doesn't get it.

Like I said, people, not all fans of Tesla are this condescending or misinformed. There are several excellent biographies on Tesla that have cleared up the nonsense that has developed about him in recent years.


#44    Beany

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 12:01 AM

View PostOmnaka, on 24 June 2008 - 01:53 AM, said:

QUOTE (brave_new_world @ Jun 23 2008, 09:14 AM)
"The day science begins to study non-physical phenomena, it will make more progress in one decade than in all previous centuries of its existence."  ---Nikola Tesla


Does anyone know what Nikola Tesla means by this statement? Can it be interpreted to mean spiritual or metaphysical reality?

It means Spirit, when science includes spirit and Love in its equasions, it will make leaps and bounds.

Love Omnaka

I think if he meant Spirit or metaphysical he would have used those terms. It can be interpreted a lot of different ways but why not just stick to what he actually said?


#45    Skep B

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 05:21 AM

if not spirit or metaphysical, then what would non physical phenomena be?

I've seen **** that'll turn you WHITE!





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