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McCain Flips At Legit Question


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#1    Lt_Ripley

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Posted 03 July 2008 - 05:18 PM


McCain Flips At Legit Question

us news trust Posted July 3, 2008 | 11:28 AM (EST)



  
I've been running VoteVets.org for a couple of years now. In 2006 and in 2008, we've endorsed a number of Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans for Congress. It's still a story that the press is largely interested in, and when they call me to talk about it, I always -- always -- get the same first question:

What is it about their honorable service in Iraq and/or Afghanistan that qualifies them to go to Congress?

It's a legit question, and neither I, nor any of the candidates, take any umbrage at it. As veterans of the current conflicts, they have a unique perspective on the wars that should be part of the debate on the floor of Congress, and a vote that helps shapes our security policy.

Yesterday, John McCain was asked basically the same question by a brave reporter at ABC News. The reporter, not falling for the hysterics and mock-outrage of the McCain camp over General Wesley Clark's comments simply asked what John McCain's experiences in Vietnam did to prepare him to lead the largest military on the face of the earth.

McCain's response?

"Please," he said, recoiling back in his seat in distaste at the very question.
Uh uh. That's not good enough. You would assume that given all the whining over General Clark's legitimate point, that John McCain had some obvious answer to the question. Instead, he refused to answer the question, and let Joe Lieberman and Lindsay Graham come to his defense, babbling to the reporter about character, but not a word about qualifications.

The fact of the matter is that General Clark was absolutely right. McCain's service, while heroic and honorable, is not very relevant when it comes to preparing him to be the military's ultimate commander. His experience didn't involve executive decision making in the military, or global strategy. Very few candidates for the presidency have had the experience in life that prepares them for that role. In fact, McCain said it himself in 2003, that some of our best Commanders in Chief had no military experience at all.

That's why the McCain campaign went into all-out outrage mode over General Clark's comments. It wasn't about being offended. It wasn't even about General Clark. It was about lashing out so strongly that the media would cower in fear, and not even think about putting a question like this to McCain -- a question to which he has no answer, and is afraid of being exposed on that point. And, for most of the week, that strategy was successful, as the press wimped out, and repeated the McCain talking points.

The reporter from ABC News didn't fall for it, and did his job. But he didn't get an answer. Maybe now, reporters will stuff their guts back in their bodies and keep asking McCain this legit question -- a question I get a version of all the time from the same reporters.

It's a legit question, and it's a question for which the American people deserve an answer.

Jon Soltz, Co-Founder and Chair of VoteVets.org, is a leader of the Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans community and is originally from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. From May to September 2003, Soltz served as a Captain during Operation Iraqi Freedom, deploying logistics convoys with the 1st Armored Division. During 2005, Soltz was mobilized for 365 days at Fort Dix New Jersey, training soldiers for combat in Afghanistan and Iraq. He also served his country with distinction in the Kosovo Campaign as a Tank Platoon Leader between June and December 2000. Soltz is a graduate of Washington & Jefferson College with dual degree in Political Science and History. He has completed graduate work at the University of Pittsburgh Graduate School of Public and International Affairs.

Jon Soltz has quickly become one of the most authoritative voices on veterans issues and military issues. He has been interviewed by national outlets such as the Associated Press, Washington Post, New York Times, Los Angeles Times, TIME, Newsweek, among others, and in dozens of local outlets.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jon-soltz/mc...e_b_110681.html


#2    bathory

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Posted 03 July 2008 - 06:06 PM

Now ignoring that Soltz is a peice of ****
this is stolen from another blog


Quote

At first I agreed with Rick Moran and many others that this is essentially a sideshow.  But let’s review the meat of what Clark said: “Well, I don’t think riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to be president.”

    Undoubtedly not.  But what is arguably a serious qualification for president is McCain’s behavior, his steadfastness, for five years in a North Vietnamese prison camp.  It has overtones of The Bridge on the River Kwai. Although not as  overtly heroic as the film, McCain showed character traits under extreme pressure - dealing with torture, standing with his men, etc., - that demonstrate superior leadership capability. What befits a president more than that?"


http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2008/0...el-bogey-march/

That said, weren't you lefties banging on about John Kerry being a vietnam war hero 4 years ago? That this somehow made him more qualified than lowly old national guardsman Bush?

hmmmm

noone is saying that because McCain was shot down and tortured etc etc  he's qualified for president

If you think that, you are being silly, and to create some kind of argument based around this notion shows how little ammunition his opponents have.

Edited by bathory, 03 July 2008 - 06:23 PM.


#3    Homer

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Posted 03 July 2008 - 08:51 PM

Quote

The reporter, not falling for the hysterics and mock-outrage of the McCain camp over General Wesley Clark's comments simply asked what John McCain's experiences in Vietnam did to prepare him to lead the largest military on the face of the earth.

Itís not McCainís Vietnam experience that qualifies him for the Whitehouse, but his experience in public service. Just like Obamaís not disqualified because he didnít fight in a war. Having served in the military, and especially in a war, should make someone more cautious about throwing our military around, but it certainly doesn't make one more or less qualified.

This really is a pointless question.

Quote

What is it about their honorable service in Iraq and/or Afghanistan that qualifies them to go to Congress?

I fail to see how wartime experience in itself makes one qualified for Congress. Does their 'unique perspective' on the war make them 'uniquely qualified' for Congress?




אַ֭תָּה אֱלֹהֵ֣י יִשְׁעִ֑י

#4    Celumnaz

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Posted 03 July 2008 - 08:57 PM

his military POW hero status is the only thing he's got.


#5    ninjadude

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Posted 04 July 2008 - 01:53 AM

Quote

Having served in the military, and especially in a war, should make someone more cautious about throwing our military around,


or MORE likely in McCain's case. It is part of his official position to do so.






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#6    __Kratos__

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Posted 04 July 2008 - 02:52 AM

ninjadude on Jul 3 2008, 08:53 PM, said:

or MORE likely in McCain's case. It is part of his official position to do so.


Just like what John Kerry did...

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#7    zitro1987

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Posted 04 July 2008 - 03:22 PM

__Kratos__ on Jul 3 2008, 10:52 PM, said:

Just like what John Kerry did...


and you know how much it worked against him.


#8    Admiral Rhubarb

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Posted 04 July 2008 - 03:25 PM

Can you remind me of Bill Clinton's military experience, or is that only a valid question when Republicans are concerned?

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#9    __Kratos__

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Posted 04 July 2008 - 03:32 PM

747400 on Jul 4 2008, 10:25 AM, said:

Can you remind me of Bill Clinton's military experience, or is that only a valid question when Republicans are concerned?


He didn't have any.

Though military exp helps out the campaign. Just as it did for democrats in the past as well.

Edited by __Kratos__, 04 July 2008 - 03:32 PM.

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#10    ninjadude

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Posted 04 July 2008 - 08:37 PM

__Kratos__ on Jul 3 2008, 09:52 PM, said:

Just like what John Kerry did...


Somehow I missed this. Is John Kerry currently running for president?

"Whatever you can do or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it. Begin it now!""
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#11    Siara

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Posted 04 July 2008 - 09:36 PM


I think the fact that he didn't cave under torture says something about his character.  But Wesley Clark was right-- riding in a military airplane that got shot down doesn't qualify you to be president.  Neither does a puritan sex life, not inhaling marijuana, being related to someone else who is a politician, having good connections in the business community, producing numerous offspring,  loading the airwaves with testimony about your relation to God, or having an Anglo-Saxon middle name.  Unfortunately, those are the qualities we vote for.


#12    questionmark

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Posted 04 July 2008 - 09:38 PM

Siara on Jul 5 2008, 12:36 AM, said:

I think the fact that he didn't cave under torture says something about his character.  But Wesley Clark was right-- riding in a military airplane that got shot down doesn't qualify you to be president.  Neither does a puritan sex life, not inhaling marijuana, being related to someone else who is a politician, having good connections in the business community, producing numerous offspring,  loading the airwaves with testimony about your relation to God, or having an Anglo-Saxon middle name.  Unfortunately, those are the qualities we vote for.


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#13    Lt_Ripley

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Posted 04 July 2008 - 10:01 PM

Siara on Jul 4 2008, 05:36 PM, said:

I think the fact that he didn't cave under torture says something about his character.  But Wesley Clark was right-- riding in a military airplane that got shot down doesn't qualify you to be president.  Neither does a puritan sex life, not inhaling marijuana, being related to someone else who is a politician, having good connections in the business community, producing numerous offspring,  loading the airwaves with testimony about your relation to God, or having an Anglo-Saxon middle name.  Unfortunately, those are the qualities we vote for.



....ah here's the thing .......... most are saying( including McCain himself ) he did cave which is why he even got special medical treatment while other soldiers captured with him did not for worse injuries.

these are guys that were held there where he was at the time. They are just some who are saying McCain sold out .

He also has only released 19 of over 600 pages of his military record. he won't release anything about his capture or being held.

...........The Navy may claim that it already released McCain's record to the Associated Press on May 7, 2008 in response to the AP's Freedom of Information Act request. But the McCain file the Navy released contained 19 pages -- a two-page overview and 17 pages detailing Awards and Decorations. Each of these 17 pages is stamped with a number. These numbers range from 0069 to 0636. When arranged in ascending order, they precisely track the chronology of McCain's career. It seems reasonable to ask the Navy whether there are at least 636 pages in McCain's file, of which 617 weren't released to the Associated Press.

Some of the unreleased pages in McCain's Navy file may not reflect well upon his qualifications for the presidency. From day one in the Navy, McCain screwed-up again and again, only to be forgiven because his father and grandfather were four-star admirals. McCain's sense of entitlement to privileged treatment bears an eerie resemblance to George W. Bush's.

Despite graduating in the bottom 1 percent of his Annapolis class, McCain was offered the most sought-after Navy assignment -- to become an aircraft carrier pilot. According to military historian John Karaagac, "'the Airedales,' the air wing of the Navy, acted and still do, as if unrivaled atop the naval pyramid. They acted as if they owned, not only the Navy, but the entire swath of blue water on the earth's surface." The most accomplished midshipmen compete furiously for the few carrier pilot openings. After four abysmal academic years at Annapolis distinguished, according to his own books, by mediocrity and misdeeds, no one with a record resembling McCain's would have been offered such a prized career path. The justification for this and subsequent plum assignments should be documented in McCain's naval file.

McCain's file should also include records and analytic reviews of McCain's subsequent sub-par performances. Here are a few cited in two highly favorable biographies, both titled John McCain, one by Robert Timberg and the other by John Karaagac. .......

The genius of McCain's mythmaking is his perceived humility amid perpetual defiance. Having been a rebel without cause, and often a rebel without consequences, McCain apparently was not surprised when his Vietnamese captors went relatively easy on him compared to his fellow POWs. The Vietnamese military secretly and frequently filmed the American POWs to learn their propensities. Col. Pham Van Hoa of the Vietnamese People's Army Film Department was in charge of the filming. Asked recently for his dominant impression of McCain, the now-retired Van Hoa said that McCain "seemed superior to other prisoners." How so? "Superior in attitude towards them."

But when Mark Salter, McCain's closest aide and co-author, was asked by the Arizona New Times about the first McCain memoir, Faith of My Fathers, that he was then working on, Salter said the book would showcase a humble McCain. When I worked on this book with him, he just kept saying, "Other guys had it a lot worse. I think they took it easier on me because of who my dad was. . . . When they tied me in ropes, they'd roll my sleeve up to give it a little padding between the rope and my bicep, you know, little things I noticed. The only really hard time I had was when I didn't go home, and then it only lasted a week, and sometimes I felt braver, I felt I could get away with more.'"

Is McCain now getting away with more by hiding his official history and by having his national security adviser inflate McCain's resume with a bogus promotion to admiral humbly declined? If so, McCain may be attempting to hide why the Navy was in fact slow to promote him upwards despite his suffering as a POW and his distinguished naval heritage.

One possible reason: After McCain had returned from Vietnam as a war hero and was physically rehabilitated, he was urged by his medical caretakers and military colleagues never to fly again. But McCain insisted on going up. As Carl Bernstein reported in Vanity Fair, he piloted an ultra-light, single propeller plane -- and crashed another time. His fifth loss of a plane has vanished from public records, but should be a subject of discussion in his Navy file. It wouldn't be surprising if his naval superiors worried that McCain was just too defiant, too reckless and too crash prone.

Regardless, McCain owes it to the country to release his complete naval records so that American voters can see his documented history and make an informed decision.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeffrey-klei...b_b_107409.html

Edited by Lt_Ripley, 04 July 2008 - 10:02 PM.


#14    Lt_Ripley

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Posted 04 July 2008 - 10:10 PM

oops.

Edited by Lt_Ripley, 04 July 2008 - 10:11 PM.


#15    Admiral Rhubarb

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Posted 05 July 2008 - 08:11 AM

Lt_Ripley on Jul 4 2008, 11:01 PM, said:

....ah here's the thing .......... most are saying( including McCain himself ) he did cave which is why he even got special medical treatment while other soldiers captured with him did not for worse injuries.

these are guys that were held there where he was at the time. They are just some who are saying McCain sold out .

He also has only released 19 of over 600 pages of his military record. he won't release anything about his capture or being held.

...........The Navy may claim that it already released McCain's record to the Associated Press on May 7, 2008 in response to the AP's Freedom of Information Act request. But the McCain file the Navy released contained 19 pages -- a two-page overview and 17 pages detailing Awards and Decorations. Each of these 17 pages is stamped with a number. These numbers range from 0069 to 0636. When arranged in ascending order, they precisely track the chronology of McCain's career. It seems reasonable to ask the Navy whether there are at least 636 pages in McCain's file, of which 617 weren't released to the Associated Press.

Some of the unreleased pages in McCain's Navy file may not reflect well upon his qualifications for the presidency. From day one in the Navy, McCain screwed-up again and again, only to be forgiven because his father and grandfather were four-star admirals. McCain's sense of entitlement to privileged treatment bears an eerie resemblance to George W. Bush's.

Despite graduating in the bottom 1 percent of his Annapolis class, McCain was offered the most sought-after Navy assignment -- to become an aircraft carrier pilot. According to military historian John Karaagac, "'the Airedales,' the air wing of the Navy, acted and still do, as if unrivaled atop the naval pyramid. They acted as if they owned, not only the Navy, but the entire swath of blue water on the earth's surface." The most accomplished midshipmen compete furiously for the few carrier pilot openings. After four abysmal academic years at Annapolis distinguished, according to his own books, by mediocrity and misdeeds, no one with a record resembling McCain's would have been offered such a prized career path. The justification for this and subsequent plum assignments should be documented in McCain's naval file.

McCain's file should also include records and analytic reviews of McCain's subsequent sub-par performances. Here are a few cited in two highly favorable biographies, both titled John McCain, one by Robert Timberg and the other by John Karaagac. .......

The genius of McCain's mythmaking is his perceived humility amid perpetual defiance. Having been a rebel without cause, and often a rebel without consequences, McCain apparently was not surprised when his Vietnamese captors went relatively easy on him compared to his fellow POWs. The Vietnamese military secretly and frequently filmed the American POWs to learn their propensities. Col. Pham Van Hoa of the Vietnamese People's Army Film Department was in charge of the filming. Asked recently for his dominant impression of McCain, the now-retired Van Hoa said that McCain "seemed superior to other prisoners." How so? "Superior in attitude towards them."

But when Mark Salter, McCain's closest aide and co-author, was asked by the Arizona New Times about the first McCain memoir, Faith of My Fathers, that he was then working on, Salter said the book would showcase a humble McCain. When I worked on this book with him, he just kept saying, "Other guys had it a lot worse. I think they took it easier on me because of who my dad was. . . . When they tied me in ropes, they'd roll my sleeve up to give it a little padding between the rope and my bicep, you know, little things I noticed. The only really hard time I had was when I didn't go home, and then it only lasted a week, and sometimes I felt braver, I felt I could get away with more.'"

Is McCain now getting away with more by hiding his official history and by having his national security adviser inflate McCain's resume with a bogus promotion to admiral humbly declined? If so, McCain may be attempting to hide why the Navy was in fact slow to promote him upwards despite his suffering as a POW and his distinguished naval heritage.

One possible reason: After McCain had returned from Vietnam as a war hero and was physically rehabilitated, he was urged by his medical caretakers and military colleagues never to fly again. But McCain insisted on going up. As Carl Bernstein reported in Vanity Fair, he piloted an ultra-light, single propeller plane -- and crashed another time. His fifth loss of a plane has vanished from public records, but should be a subject of discussion in his Navy file. It wouldn't be surprising if his naval superiors worried that McCain was just too defiant, too reckless and too crash prone.

Regardless, McCain owes it to the country to release his complete naval records so that American voters can see his documented history and make an informed decision.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeffrey-klei...b_b_107409.html

Shall we discuss Obama's military record?
He doesn't have one, but that isn't relevant to his qualifications for President?
So why all this banging on about McCain's?


Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

H. P. Lovecraft.


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