32 replies to this topic

[nickoli]

In August of 1968, a program of severe torture began on McCain.[44] McCain was subjected to repeated beatings and rope bindings, at the same time as he was suffering from dysentery.[44] After four days, McCain made an anti-American propaganda "confession".[33] He has always felt that his statement was dishonorable,[45] but as he would later write, "I had learned what we all learned over there: Every man has his breaking point. I had reached mine."[46] His injuries left him permanently incapable of raising his arms above his head.[47] He subsequently received two to three beatings per week because of his continued refusal to sign additional statements.[48] Other American POWs were similarly tortured and maltreated in order to extract "confessions" and propaganda statements, with many enduring even worse treatment than McCain.[49]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCain

I see nothing in McCains military service to be ashamed of. In fact I believe most anybody would have said most anything in order to stop the beatings. If this is all the left has to attack McCain on then they are left nearly empty handed.
  McCains time as a pow shows true principled character under extreme duress.

In mid-1968, McCain's father was named commander of all U.S. forces in the Vietnam theater, and McCain was offered early release.[42] The North Vietnamese wanted to appear merciful for propaganda purposes,[43] and also wanted to show other POWs that elites like McCain were willing to be treated preferentially.[42] McCain turned down the offer of repatriation; he would only accept the offer if every man taken in before him was released as well.

These actions speak volumes about character and an inner sense of right and wrong he did not take the easy way out taking advantage of his fathers political pull yet instead chose to wait his turn. Now that is character beyond reproach, something Obama lacks I might add.

How many years of service to the armed services has the McCain family given? Two Admirals and what 50 yrs of service,sounds like a patriotic family dedicated to the service of America,also keep in mind that John McCain chose combat duty during Veitnam not a cushy supply job away from the action like he probably could have given his connections at the top.

Edited by nickoli, 05 July 2008 - 03:09 PM.

[bathory]

that is indeed interesting

Even if he had said anything, which by all accounts, what he told them was pretty useless information, the left are criticising him for giving up information after being severely tortured...

nice

I wonder where this stands with their constant assertions that torture provides inaccurate information 9 times out of 10 lol

Edited by bathory, 05 July 2008 - 03:08 PM.

[Atheist God]

bathory on Jul 5 2008, 10:08 AM, said:

that is indeed interesting

Even if he had said anything, which by all accounts, what he told them was pretty useless information, the left are criticising him for giving up information after being severely tortured...

nice

I wonder where this stands with their constant assertions that torture provides inaccurate information 9 times out of 10 lol

In all fairness to McCain he did not sell out when he was a PoW, however there are conflicting reports regarding his torture. One of his former captors said he knew McCain wouldn't talk and so there was no real reason to torture him.

[Thanato]

He lost 5 Aircraft yes, but only 3 of them were really his falt.

~Thanato

Edited by Thanato, 05 July 2008 - 07:51 PM.

[ninjadude]

nickoli on Jul 5 2008, 09:57 AM, said:

I see nothing in McCains military service to be ashamed of.
How many years of service to the armed services has the McCain family given?

Being a POW is not his entire military service.

The McCain "family" is not running for president. We do not elect families (at least not officially)

[nickoli]

We do however look deep into their backgrounds and  the McCain family history is rife with service to country. Nobody is perfect nor does military service alone make one presidential material but their actions and their life experiences do.

[Lt_Ripley]

why doesn't McCain just release his records ( over 600 pages kept secret) instead of the 19 pages  he has allowed. ? why are some vets that were camped with him say one thing and some say others.

why was McCain allowed hospital treatment when those with worse injuries were not ?

I'd be interested in seeing his full service record.

Edited by Lt_Ripley, 06 July 2008 - 04:16 PM.

[bathory]

Lt_Ripley on Jul 6 2008, 05:16 PM, said:

why was McCain allowed hospital treatment when those with worse injuries were not ?

I would hazard a guess and say that he was probably worth more to the North Vietnamese?

Its like you guys seem to think the only people capable of producing propoganda are Americans

[Lt_Ripley]

bathory on Jul 7 2008, 12:25 AM, said:

I would hazard a guess and say that he was probably worth more to the North Vietnamese?

Its like you guys seem to think the only people capable of producing propoganda are Americans

that still is no answer as to why he refuses to open over 600 pages of record. Only allowing so far 19. It also doesn't account for his own words in those interviews.


this ' propaganda' wasn't produced by anyone other than McCain himself via interviews with the American press once released and a civillian.

Quote

While talking with Barral, McCain III further seriously violated the military Code of Conduct by
failing to evade answering questions ”to the utmost of his ability” when he, according government
documents, helped Barral by answering questions in Spanish, a language McCain had learned in
school. The interview was published in the in January 1970.

Edited by Lt_Ripley, 07 July 2008 - 01:37 PM.

[bathory]

oh please

he gave them nothing of value, and had been beaten and tortured to get that far

seriously, is this your criticism?

that a man who was severely beaten and tortured gave the North Vietnamese useless information?

[Cleomenes]

bathory on Jul 7 2008, 12:05 PM, said:

oh please

he gave them nothing of value, and had been beaten and tortured to get that far

seriously, is this your criticism?

that a man who was severely beaten and tortured gave the North Vietnamese useless information?

Ripley and his ilk are the worst kind of demagogues.  They attack McCain's admirable war record with the justification that it happened to Kerry in '04.  That was a pathetic spectacle, and it was wrong, but now its alright because they are doing it to the other guy.  Hypocrisy?  Yes.  But what is worse is their willingness to throw all forms of principle aside in order to make these baseless and disgusting attacks.  Ladies and gentlemen, this is how politics in America became so divisive and repulsive.  

It seems they also lose sight of the fact that they concede the moral high-ground when they delve into these antics.  This isn't to say that the other side holds the moral high-ground.  However, so long as Ripley and his ilk make these kind of pathetic attacks, they have no claim to being any better that the side they're attacking.  

How short-sighted and shameful.  These people give real Democrats a bad name.

[ninjadude]

Cleomenes on Jul 7 2008, 01:11 PM, said:

McCain's admirable war record

Admirale? admirable? What's admirable about crashing five planes, being involved in almost destroying an aircraft carrier, getting shotdown, and being a POW???!!!    He's more a bad luck talisman.

[Fluffybunny]

Lt_Ripley on Jul 7 2008, 06:32 AM, said:

that still is no answer as to why he refuses to open over 600 pages of record. Only allowing so far 19. It also doesn't account for his own words in those interviews.

While talking with Barral, McCain III further seriously violated the military Code of Conduct by
failing to evade answering questions ”to the utmost of his ability” when he, according government
documents, helped Barral by answering questions in Spanish, a language McCain had learned in
school. The interview was published in the in January 1970.
this ' propaganda' wasn't produced by anyone other than McCain himself via interviews with the American press once released and a civillian.

As for the information he gave, it was rather pointless material. The Greenbay Packers Line for a list of names? Yeah, thats important material. As for the songbird thing; well, let me break your arm, and twist it around for a while and see how quickly you are willing to be John Wayne tough. Not long I bet. The guy was man enough to admit he was broke by them. That they had reached his breaking point.

I dont agree with his politics, but when it comes to his military background, it is a low blow to attack a man for what he says while he is a POW, specially by someone who has never served, and never been a POW themselves, never been tortured, never even been witness to military style torture.

You can harass his politics all you want, but leave his military POW background out of it, it is a slimy tactic...

[KingTomis]

ninjadude on Jul 8 2008, 12:42 AM, said:

Admirale? admirable? What's admirable about crashing five planes, being involved in almost destroying an aircraft carrier, getting shotdown, and being a POW???!!!    He's more a bad luck talisman.

Quote

"They Told Me I'd Never Go Home"

I really didn't know what to think, because I had been having these other interrogations in which I had refused to co-operate. It was not hard because they were not torturing me at this time. They just told me Id never go home and I was going to be tried as a war criminal. That was their constant theme for many months.

Suddenly "The Cat" said to me, "Do you want to go home?"

I was astonished, and I tell you frankly that I said that I would have to think about it. I went back to my room, and I thought about it for a long time. At this time I did not have communication with the camp senior ranking officer, so I could get no advice. I was worried whether I could stay alive or not, because I was in rather bad condition. I had been hit with a severe case of dysentery, which kept on for about a year and a half. I was losing weight again.

But I knew that the Code of Conduct says, You will not accept parole or amnesty," and that "you will not accept special favors." For somebody to go home earlier is a special favor. There's no other way you can cut it.

I went back to him three nights later. He asked again, "Do you want to go home?" I told him "No." He wanted to know why, and I told him the reason. I said. Alvarez [first American captured] should go first, then enlisted men and that kind of stuff.

"The Cat" told me that President Lyndon Johnson bad ordered me home. He handed me a letter from my wife which she had said, "I wished that you had been one of those three who got to come home." Of course, she had no way to understand the ramifications of this. "Thee Cat" said that the doctors had told him that I could not live unless I got medical treatment in the United States.

We went through this routine and still I told him "No." Three nights later we went through it all over again. On the morning of the Fourth of July, 1968, which happened to be the same day that my father took over as commander in chief of U. S. Forces in the Pacific, I was led into another quiz room.

"The Rabbit" and "The Cat" were sitting there. I walked in and sat down, and "The Rabbit" said, "Our senior wants to know your final answer."

"My final answer is the same. It's 'No."'

"That is your final answer?"

"That is my final answer."

With this "The Cat," who was sitting there with a pile of papers in front of him and a pen in his hand, broke the pen in two. Ink spurted all over. He stood up, kicked the chair over behind him, and said, "They taught you too well" --in perfect English, I might add. He turned, went out and slammed the door, leaving "The Rabbit" and me sitting there. "The Rabbit" said "Now McCain, it will be very bad for you. Go back to your room

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1084711/posts

So, what would you perceive as being more admirable than staying in a POW camp when offered a ticket out?  

[Cleomenes]

He doesn't care, he's another hypocritic demagogue.  Following his logic, Kerry wouldn't have an admirable war record either, since he managed to get wounded three times.  Although I bet he's never argued that before.  How asinine.

McCain and Kerry both had admirable war records.  Even if you disagree with their politics, at least have the decency to give the men the respect they're due.