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If evolution is true, why are we the only


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#1    strichar

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Posted 02 March 2004 - 03:16 AM

During my many years of contemplation on the subject of creation vs. evolution I have had a lot of people ask me " If evolution is true why hasn't another species evolved intelligence?"

Well, the answer is. There has been, and still are animals of equal or near intelligence to ours. Nanderthals for example, were an entirely different speicies than us. According to modern scientists we didn't evolve from them, a common misconception many people have. We evolved as our own species. Here is a little info on Neanderthals and humans.

Throughout modern media and propoganda, Homo neandertalensis is portrayed as a lumbering, hairy, unintelligent and animalistic predecessor to modern humans, who died out from a clear inferiority to the H. sapiens who came after them. However, this image is far from true. Neandertals lived for over 200,000 years, emerging around 250,000 years ago, and eventually going extinct only 30,000 years ago. They were extremely strong, well adapted to cold climates, and even had a brain size larger than that of modern humans, about 1450 cc. Neandertals were adept hunters; their skeletons are associated with advanced tools and weapons, and they are the first known hominid to bury their species, having a burial site dated to be 100,000 years old, implying possible ritual behavior.
                
                
        
  Neandertals lived throughout Europe and the Middle East, but did not have to share their habitat with other human species for the first 150,000 years of their existence. Neandertals are not precursors to modern humans, but rather are more like cousins, branching from a common ancestor that led to H. sapien evolution as well. This ancestor was most likely H. heidelbergensis, which gave rise to Neandertals in the north, and to H. sapiens in Africa. These two cousins remained in separate habitats until the migration of H. sapiens put them in contact with Neandertal, probably around 100,000 years ago in the Middle East, and about 35,000 years ago in Europe.  
          
   Opinions of Neandertals appearance are widely variable, with interpretations describing Neandertals as having an ape-like stature, with a stooping gait, long arms, and prehensile toes, such as in the picture on the left, or to the other extreme, considering a clean and well dressed Neandertal to be hardly worth a second glance on a New York subway.

Both of these views are probably inaccurate. Although Neandertal was by no means a primitive species, and had highly evolved aspects of their morphology, the were also not at all analogous to the build of H. sapiens.
  
      
   Neandertals and Cro-Magnon co-exist        
  Although it is not clear whether or not Neandertals and Cro-Magnon lived together in the same valleys, or adjoining sites, it is definite that beginning 35,000 years ago, the two species co-existed throughout Europe and the Middle East, sharing a habitat and its resources. This time period also marks a major technological, and perhaps behavioral, evolution, with the advent of the Upper Paleolithic Tool industry.

There is still extensive arguments about whether Neandertals and Cro-Magnon interbred. A fossil of a child buried 25,000 years ago at Lagar Vehlo in Portugal, associated with red ochre and pendants, has been thought to be a mix, or hybrid of the two species. The skeleton shows a mixture of modern skull traits and the robust, cold-adapted skeleton of Neandertal. If this is the case, one could argue that Neandertals did not really die out, but were folded into the Cro-Magnon lineage, and can still be seen in some select characteristics of individuals. However, there is some recent evidence from studies of human mitochondrial DNA that suggests that there is no genetic link between modern day humans and neandertal, implying that there never was any interbreeding.
  
Why the success of modern humans, and the extinction of Neandertals?            
So why is it that H. sapiens succeeded as Neandertals died out? A popular belief is that modern humans simply had superior brains, giving them more complex language and organizational structures, better adaptability to changing environments, and a greater aptitude for innovation. As a result, H. sapiens simply became the dominant species wherever they overlapped with Neandertals. However, this view is entirely speculative, given that determining behavioral patterns from the fossil and lithic record is extremely subjective, and it is certainly important to take into account that not only are Neandertals associated with advanced tools of their own, they also managed to survive a variety of challenging environments for over 200,000 years.

   Additionally, there is evidence that Neandertals and Cro-Magnon overlapped in western Asia about 100,000 years ago, where in fact Neandertal was the dominant species, remaining after Cro-Magnon had left, or migrated to new habitats.

It is probable that the success of modern humans and the failure of Neandertal was merely coincidental; circumstances happened to favor Cro-Magnon, and had they been different, it is entirely possible that Neandertals would have been the more successful population.

As it was, the most likely cause of the Neandertal extinction was the instability of the Ice Age climates. Fluctuations from relatively warm climates to extreme cold climates in only a few thousand years, combined with the increased competition of sharing their environment with a new hominid species led to extremely difficult survival conditions. Cro-Magnons may have had advantages such as larger social networks or more protective clothes and dwellings, and perhaps most importantly the ability to think symbolically, which may have given them the edge in the rapidly changing environment, that allowed them to continue, and caused the demise of Neandertals.
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Another race of animal is the dolphin. Dolphins have equal if not a higher intelligence than we. They just work very differently than we do. They can't tell us this because they can't make tools and don't speak in a manner we can understand. Much like an alien from outer space might be.

what are your thoughts on this?

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"A man's dreams are an index to his greatness."

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#2    bathory

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Posted 02 March 2004 - 03:42 AM

hmmm, the dolphin comment intrigues me, i knew they were highly intelligent, but moreso than humans? i mean its entirely possible, all that would take to mask it is that they simply percieve the world differently to us, hmmm, any particular studies i could look for?


#3    strichar

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Posted 02 March 2004 - 03:44 AM

I got all my info on the subject from my national geographic subscription and my cousin. He's worked with them a lot. I'm sure you could just do a search on it online and find some studies from universities though. I know that the coast gaurd marine biology division has done quite a few studies on them.

Edited by strichar, 02 March 2004 - 03:45 AM.

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"A man's dreams are an index to his greatness."

-- Cardinal Durand XVIII

The point is to discover that core of uniqueness that is in each of us, that is beyond all social roles and to make that the point from which we act, live, and think in the world.

#4    man_in_mudboots

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Posted 02 March 2004 - 10:13 PM

the neanderthals were just about to evolutionarily discover something, something extremely useful, when our group found it first and it jetted us to secess and the neanderthals to extinction. what ever it was, possibly speech, we discovered it first, they discovered ti second, but it was just a little too late. we had gained supremacy, filled the niche, and pushed them out of their old one. the 'super species' niche can only be occupied by one creature. it ended up that that creatue was us, not them.

this is a very good topic idea, mr Strichar, i cnat belive you got so few replies.


#5    strichar

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Posted 02 March 2004 - 10:54 PM

Actually I had started the Whats your favorite color? thread and I got post after post after post. I was beginning to wonder if it would ever end. It was so ridiculous. I didn't expect anyone to post on that one either. It figures though, the one thread I start that I really didn't care about because it had no intelligent discussion prospects wouldbe the one poeple would post on. I was starting to get a little disgusted with it actually. Fortunately Phantom fixed that.

Anyway. That is a good idea, but I don't think it worked out quite that way. I think Cro Magnon and Neanderthals just had two entirely different thought processes. Something that is really most interesting is the fact that Cro Magnon had art and jewelry. Neanderthals did not. At least not untill Cro Magnon and Neanderthals were living in similiar areas. Still, Humans painted on walls. They painted animals in an honorary fashion. they thought of animals in a way that no Neanderthal could have ever understood. Another interesting thing was that you could tell the difference between Nanderthal and human craftsmanship by how they were made. Take jewelry for example. Human jewelry was almost always made from shells, and they would drill tiny hole through them to put a line through and wear around their necks as pendants. Neanderthals didn't make jewelry untill they cam in contact with us. See they, instead of shells and holes, would use bones and teeth with notches on the side that they would wrap a line around. There is a distinct difference in the thought patterns here. You see human craftsmanship was always better, as you can tell a line through a hole would hold a pentant better than wrapping the line around it. See humans put a value in these things that Neanderthals just didn't grasp. It's not that we figured it out first or that we were smarter than they were. It's just that their minds would not allow them to because they were an entirely different species. Their minds just worked entirely different than ours.

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"A man's dreams are an index to his greatness."

-- Cardinal Durand XVIII

The point is to discover that core of uniqueness that is in each of us, that is beyond all social roles and to make that the point from which we act, live, and think in the world.

#6    man_in_mudboots

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Posted 02 March 2004 - 11:32 PM

a question i have always wondered on is this: were the neanderthals able to see pictures and interpret them as what the picture was supposed to represent. animals watching a TV screen are unable to interpret a flat picture of, say, a face, as a face - they only see a colored and shaded TV screen. hey, stricahr, a good topic would be what separates humans form animals. i think ill take care of that.


#7    strichar

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Posted 02 March 2004 - 11:48 PM

Well, I imagine they could see the same as we do. They really weren't all that physically different from us. I do think though that they would never have been able to understand  the concept of television though. they didn't even understand entertainment.  

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"A man's dreams are an index to his greatness."

-- Cardinal Durand XVIII

The point is to discover that core of uniqueness that is in each of us, that is beyond all social roles and to make that the point from which we act, live, and think in the world.

#8    man_in_mudboots

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Posted 02 March 2004 - 11:52 PM

QUOTE (strichar @ Mar 2 2004, 10:48 PM)
Well, I imagine they could see the same as we do.

its not how they see, but how they interpret what they see. an animal (or maybe a neanderthal) would see a flat screen with colors and shading, but we would use our imaginations to see a face on it, even though the face is not really there. to them it is invisible, because they lack the imagination to form the colors and shading into a face.


#9    strichar

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Posted 02 March 2004 - 11:57 PM

Good point. Now you've got me wondering that too.

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"A man's dreams are an index to his greatness."

-- Cardinal Durand XVIII

The point is to discover that core of uniqueness that is in each of us, that is beyond all social roles and to make that the point from which we act, live, and think in the world.

#10    DC09

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Posted 03 March 2004 - 12:40 AM

QUOTE (bathory @ Mar 1 2004, 09:42 PM)
hmmm, the dolphin comment intrigues me, i knew they were highly intelligent, but moreso than humans? i mean its entirely possible, all that would take to mask it is that they simply percieve the world differently to us, hmmm, any particular studies i could look for?

Heres some basic info on dolphin intelligence.

Dolphins and Man.....Equals?

assorted facts

DOLPHIN'S INTELLIGENCE


#11    man_in_mudboots

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Posted 03 March 2004 - 01:19 AM

QUOTE (strichar @ Mar 2 2004, 10:57 PM)
Now you've got me wondering that too.

i have that effect on folks. whenever i say 'ive been wondering....' everybody that knows me immediatly responds with and 'i DONT want to hear about it!'


#12    espdracomth

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Posted 03 March 2004 - 02:02 AM

My idea on this is there are other intelligent species in the wild.The only reason we have such complex machines & equipment is the fact that long time ago before we had any technology & before H. Sapiens & Neanderthal we were a relatively weak species.Compared to other animals we are slower & weaker.If we had not started to create tools we would not have lasted, but then we became dependent on them, so we progressed more and more in areas of technology since we needed them to survive whether it be against fiercer animals or neighboring tribes.This was why we have become so smart in the sense of our great achievments, animals don't have the impetus to to create tools since they are already born with what they need to survive.Although they can & will use tools when necessary.Just like some monkeys use sticks to get at ants they can't reach or Ravens & Crows who also are extremely intelligent will make tools when needed.


Here's a link about an experiment with crows making tools.Small-Brained Creatures of Surprisingly High Intelligence


#13    doomgirl

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Posted 03 March 2004 - 02:36 AM

ok, just because we can walk upright, talk, build and destroy, doesn't mean that we are the only one's.

We are thinking in terms that we know and understand, if we could understand animals I'm sure that we would find we are nothing compared to them



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#14    strichar

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Posted 03 March 2004 - 04:49 AM

I agree, but the point is that Neanderthals and Humans were parallell homonid species. And being that two different species, Humans and Neanderthals, existed at the same time for thousands of years proves that There have been other Homo intelligent species one Earth. We did not evolve from Neanderthals at all, we  came from our own different species. Neanderthals were a European Ice Age homonid species. Where as Humans are a tropical end of Ice Age Homonid. The thing is we were better able to adapt to new environments better than they were, because we had different thought processes. We are a different species That was better able to adapt to the changing world at the a$$ end of the Ice Age. Neanderthals lived for 200,000 years before we ever came along. That is significantly longer than Humans have been around, only about 20,000 years. The fact that we have advanced so much further than they did in that time just shows why Neanderthals went extinct. Neanderthals didn't have any concept of, pride, entertainment, or art. Everything for them was kill or be killed. But the point is that we existed in the same time period for thousands of years. Thus proving there have been other intelligent species similiar to ours to have evolved. We may just happen to be the only ones, we know of, that re around at this point in Earth's history.

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"A man's dreams are an index to his greatness."

-- Cardinal Durand XVIII

The point is to discover that core of uniqueness that is in each of us, that is beyond all social roles and to make that the point from which we act, live, and think in the world.

#15    man_in_mudboots

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Posted 03 March 2004 - 01:27 PM

QUOTE (strichar @ Mar 3 2004, 03:49 AM)
Neanderthals lived for 200,000 years before we ever came along. That is significantly longer than Humans have been around, only about 20,000 years. The fact that we have advanced so much further than they did in that time just shows why Neanderthals went extinct. Neanderthals didn't have any concept of, pride, entertainment, or art. Everything for them was kill or be killed.

that goes with my theory that there was something that we ahd theat they did not and because we ahd it we survived.





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