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2+2=4 equates a certainty of god


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#1    Sherapy

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 03:42 PM

I have a converstation going on another  thread about this
( lady R's jesus came for the jews.....)
.
many  christians on here say I know god  just  as i know 2+2=4....therefore there is a god..



perhaps with the help of  the many brilliant  members on here you can help me understand   what  I am not getting about this..



I personally am  not seeing how  this can  be a foregone conclusion that supports a knowing or personal realtionship with god..

all comments are welcomed ....


#2    IamsSon

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 03:44 PM

Supra Sheri on Jul 9 2008, 10:42 AM, said:

I have a converstation going on another  thread about this
( lady R's jesus came for the jews.....)
.
many  christians on here say I know god  just  as i know 2+2=4....therefore there is a god..



perhaps with the help of  the many brilliant  members on here you can help me understand   what  I am not getting about this..



I personally am  not seeing how  this can  be a foregone conclusion that supports a knowing or personal realtionship with god..

all comments are welcomed ....

Here's a comment.  You got it all wrong because you either never bother to actually read what people write or because you think that by ridiculing someone you actually impact the validity of what they are saying.  Pretty low either way, Sheri.

This is how quickly PA understood what I meant: http://www.unexplain...dpost&p=2384614 ://http://www.unexplained-mysteries.co...&p=2384614

Edited by IamsSon, 09 July 2008 - 03:49 PM.

"But then with me that horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin, in a letter to William Graham on July 3, 1881

#3    danielost

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 03:47 PM

Supra Sheri on Jul 9 2008, 10:42 AM, said:

I have a converstation going on another  thread about this
( lady R's jesus came for the jews.....)
.
many  christians on here say I know god  just  as i know 2+2=4....therefore there is a god..



perhaps with the help of  the many brilliant  members on here you can help me understand   what  I am not getting about this..



I personally am  not seeing how  this can  be a foregone conclusion that supports a knowing or personal realtionship with god..

all comments are welcomed ....



All Iamson is saying is he knows that god exist, like he knows that 2+2=4 or like the sky is blue.

I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.

#4    ravergirl

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 03:55 PM

With absolute certanty 2+2=4
2+2=4 (i switched the twos)
4=2+2
2+x=4  X=2
4 / 2= 2
4-2=2  Always has always will no matter what order you put it in, or what loophole you think you found With absolute certainty. it is called a proof.

That is the same amount of certaintly that some believers have that God exists. It cannot be changed for them, because something happened in their spiritual walk that has taken the existance of God out of the path of questioning. Thats not to say that there are not other things left to be questioned.

I am theNON-SEQUITUR-ER

#5    Sherapy

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 03:56 PM

IamsSon on Jul 9 2008, 08:44 AM, said:

Here's a comment.  You got it all wrong because you either never bother to actually read what people write or because you think that by ridiculing someone you actually impact the validity of what they are saying.  Pretty low either way, Sheri.

This is how quickly PA understood what I meant: http://www.unexplain...dpost&p=2384614 ://http://www.unexplained-mysteries.co...&p=2384614 ://http://www.unexplained-mysteries.co...&p=2384614 ://http://www.unexplained-mysteries.co...&p=2384614

I  simply don't understand and a good pal of mine said perhaps i need to go back to the drawing board this is not about you  its about me not understanding....so if you don't mind can this be about me ....thankyou...

I saw that post by pa it didnt help bring clarity for me..for the reason i stated on that thread...also  pa is christian and this  is a common  christian statement ....

I am  gonna look at this from  as many pov as I can for myself....

Edited by Supra Sheri, 09 July 2008 - 03:57 PM.


#6    danielost

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 03:58 PM

Supra Sheri on Jul 9 2008, 10:56 AM, said:

I  simply don't understand and a good pal of mine said perhaps i need to go back to the drawing board this is not about you  its about me not understanding....so if you don't mind can this be about me ....thankyou...

I saw that post by pa it didnt help bring clarity for me..for the reason i stated on that thread...also  pa is christian and this  is a common  christian statement ....

I am  gonna look at this from  as many pov as I can for myself....

.

How certain are you that you are female

I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.

#7    Paranoid Android

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 04:01 PM

I'll restate what I said, though try in different terms.

For Christians, we don't "believe" God exists.  for us, it is a fact of life (yes, we understand that not all people believe God exists, and for those that do, not all believe in the same God).  But that is quite irrelevant.  The point is that for a Christian God does exist.  It is a solid fact.

Mathematics is also a solid fact.  2+2=4 is a known fact.  

So when a Christian refers to both of these, what we mean is that to our own personal worldviews, the existence of God is as real as the facts of mathematics.  It is an analogy to express  to other people that what we believe (God) is not just "belief) but solid fact.  

I don't think any Christian would say 2+2=4 and therefore God exists, but that is what I think you are trying to imply, is it Sheri?

Edited by Paranoid Android, 09 July 2008 - 04:03 PM.

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#8    MissMelsWell

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 04:02 PM

Allusions and metaphores just aren't that hard to understand.

What seems to be the problem?

"It's time for the American people to stand up and shrug off the shackles of our government at TSA at the airport"  Ron Paul

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#9    Sherapy

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 04:06 PM

danielost on Jul 9 2008, 08:47 AM, said:

All Iamson is saying is he knows that god exist, like he knows that 2+2=4 or like the sky is blue.


Daniel how does he know that god exists??? I get the analogy , just  not how  he 'knows' god exists to begin with???? we aren't talking blue skys and counting  tools he is using these methods to prove god correct?????finite human  explanations to deal with infinite nothingness....because  its also  a common statemet that god is beyond human understanding. and has to be taken on faith ........so how does this work ..





@ rave thankyou for your input...


#10    Sherapy

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 04:15 PM

Paranoid Android on Jul 9 2008, 09:01 AM, said:

I'll restate what I said, though try in different terms.

For Christians, we don't "believe" God exists.  for us, it is a fact of life (yes, we understand that not all people believe God exists, and for those that do, not all believe in the same God).  But that is quite irrelevant.  The point is that for a Christian God does exist.  It is a solid fact.

Mathematics is also a solid fact.  2+2=4 is a known fact.  

So when a Christian refers to both of these, what we mean is that to our own personal worldviews, the existence of God is as real as the facts of mathematics.  It is an analogy to express  to other people that what we believe (God) is not just "belief) but solid fact.  

I don't think any Christian would say 2+2=4 and therefore God exists, but that is what I think you are trying to imply, is it Sheri?



Pa I am not sure yet  what  i think that  is why  i started this thread in all honesty i am  looking at this at this point I am not concluding anything  yet........I appreciate your input, just as I appreciated sons
Pa,  how is your beleif in god moved to a knowing of god????  

if I am  understanding you correctly you are saying this is a measure of beleif in god then????????  except I don't understand  god can't   be proven .....

Edited by Supra Sheri, 09 July 2008 - 04:27 PM.


#11    Paranoid Android

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 04:19 PM

^Of course God can't be proven.  No one has claimed he can be proven, not even IamsSon.  He is just saying that from his worldview, God exists.  TO HIM (that's the key term, Supra - "to him") - to him, God is as real as 2+2=4!  It's a personal statement, not a grand gesture that "maths is right so therefore God exists".  He's not referring it to you or to anyone else.  Does that make sense, Supra?

Edited by Paranoid Android, 09 July 2008 - 04:21 PM.

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#12    Sherapy

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 04:20 PM

danielost on Jul 9 2008, 08:58 AM, said:

.

How certain are you that you are female


i get this Daniel but me being female,  dosent automatically create a foregone conclusion there is a god...   not to mention I can see

by looking I have female parts, i have many ways available to support this but thats all it supports or shows is that certain labels equate female......it doesn't warrant a leap to  certainlty of purple dragons....


#13    Sherapy

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 04:25 PM

Paranoid Android on Jul 9 2008, 09:19 AM, said:

^Of course God can't be proven.  No one has claimed he can be proven, not even IamsSon.  He is just saying that from his worldview, God exists.  TO HIM (I believe that's the key term) - to him, God is as real as 2+2=4!  It's a personal statement, not a grand gesture that "maths is right so therefore God exists".  Does that make sense, Supra?

yes you do make sense robbie...


but IMO  in using this statement it is inferring that god is a fact when in essence its a beleif based on a world view by taking a leap of faith  it can't be proven ... if i am following you robbie..please correct where you see fit...

Edited by Supra Sheri, 09 July 2008 - 04:25 PM.


#14    Irish

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 04:31 PM

Something’s become a personal fact rather than a belief because like the scientific principle it is a repeatable daily encounter ibid it remains a personal experience because it is a relationship and not a physical object. As science could not begin to prove love, love can not aid science in any way.
Many demand proof and receive proof daily yet fail to recognize it. They seek truth in physical substance yet truth is in spirit not matter.
If I claimed to be your brother that you grew up with you probably would not believe me because you would not recognize me. I would recognize Jesus because I have known Him many years and interacted with him.
If he was to return in a physical body I would recognize Him because I already know Him in spirit.
Even though many of you would not recognize me in person many have come to know me by the way I write. And after a brief conversation with me you would conclude that I am the same Irish on UM’s forums.

It may well appear as blind faith to the non believer but after the initial step of as you say blind faith evidence is given to the individual. The truth is revealed only after an earnest commitment, much to the chagrin of those that do not believe. Is that you must first come to Christ by faith alone and then the truth is revealed to the individual with no doubts. His persona would be revealed only within our hearts and minds, but again we would have to try to convince others to get to know Him the way we do.


Irish

Most people do not want to know the truth they only want confirmation for what they think is truth.

#15    brave_new_world

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 04:32 PM

Supra Sheri on Jul 10 2008, 01:25 AM, said:

yes you do make sense robbie...


but IMO  in using this statement it is inferring that god is a fact when in essence its a beleif based on a world view by taking a leap of faith  it can't be proven ... if i am following you robbie..please correct where you see fit...


I agree with Paranoid Android. For me God too is a fact, in fact God is the sole Fact that gives cause or rise to all other facts. While me and Paranoid android dont see eye to eye on most things about God we are both in agreement that God exists definately.

Just because something cannot be proven through equation or via a separate piece of finite proof against the backdrop of the universe, doesnt mean that something has no validity or existence.

Just as consciousness cannot be proven or measured so likewise is God. And for me consciousness and God are one and the same.

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