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2+2=4 equates a certainty of god


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#16    Shaftsbury

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 04:33 PM

Paranoid Android on Jul 9 2008, 10:01 AM, said:

I'll restate what I said, though try in different terms.

For Christians, we don't "believe" God exists.  for us, it is a fact of life (yes, we understand that not all people believe God exists, and for those that do, not all believe in the same God).  But that is quite irrelevant.  The point is that for a Christian God does exist.  It is a solid fact.

Mathematics is also a solid fact.  2+2=4 is a known fact.  

So when a Christian refers to both of these, what we mean is that to our own personal worldviews, the existence of God is as real as the facts of mathematics.  It is an analogy to express  to other people that what we believe (God) is not just "belief) but solid fact.

I don't think any Christian would say 2+2=4 and therefore God exists, but that is what I think you are trying to imply, is it Sheri?



I never have been able to understand this sliding scale that some believers use,  to me it is utter hypocrisy to demand a higher degree of certainty for some beliefs than others.

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aught simple will serve at home;
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mid the wise, and nothing knows."

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#17    Paranoid Android

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 04:40 PM

Supra Sheri on Jul 10 2008, 02:25 AM, said:

yes you do make sense robbie...


but IMO  in using this statement it is inferring that god is a fact when in essence its a beleif based on a world view by taking a leap of faith  it can't be proven ... if i am following you robbie..please correct where you see fit...
You're right with me up to a point - I'm sure IamsSon will correct me if I'm wrong, but he is making this as a personal statement about his own belief in God.  To him, it is a fact.  Just as God's existence to me is a fact.  It is not an all-inclusive statement saying "therefore it is a fact".  If you have done textual analysis, you shoul know this.  It's a personal analogy, used to describe a personal experience.  If I truly believed there was a pink elephant sitting in my sock-drawer, I could say "to me, that pink elephant is as real as 2+2=4".  It's a personal statement referring to a personal journey.  

You've taken it much too literally, and thought of it as a blanket statement to all that 2+2=God!  And that's just an illogical step to take, in my opinion.


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#18    ravergirl

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 04:41 PM

Shaftsbury on Jul 9 2008, 05:33 PM, said:

I never have been able to understand this sliding scale that some believers use,  to me it is utter hypocrisy to demand a higher degree of certainty for some beliefs than others.


What sliding scale are you talking about?

Because I believe in God. I don't believe that God is a "him" which both come out of the bible, but that isn't sliding scale, it is conceding that people wrote the bible and that maybe just maybe there are enough questions left to be answered so that we are not a bunch of mindless zombies believing all one thing just because it said so. A spiritual journey is as personal as anything else is, so why should believers all have to believe the exact same thing?

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#19    Paranoid Android

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 04:41 PM

Shaftsbury on Jul 10 2008, 02:33 AM, said:

I never have been able to understand this sliding scale that some believers use,  to me it is utter hypocrisy to demand a higher degree of certainty for some beliefs than others.
I'm sorry, but I don't understand the question.  What is this "sliding scale" of which you speak?  Could you elaborate.  Thanks,


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#20    MissMelsWell

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 04:46 PM

This thread is kooky... but that aside.

I believe that all people have varying abilities to "hear" God.

People like Sheri have no ability.

People like myself have some ability

People like Irish might be a good example of someone who has huge ability.

So, anyone who has even the smallest amount of ability believe God to be fact. Those who have no ability at all like Sheri and others, are confused and probably have every right to be confused. And will remain confused.

It's just the way it is from my point of view.

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#21    Sherapy

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 05:00 PM

Paranoid Android on Jul 9 2008, 09:40 AM, said:

You're right with me up to a point - I'm sure IamsSon will correct me if I'm wrong, but he is making this as a personal statement about his own belief in God.  To him, it is a fact.  Just as God's existence to me is a fact.  It is not an all-inclusive statement saying "therefore it is a fact".  If you have done textual analysis, you shoul know this.  It's a personal analogy, used to describe a personal experience.  If I truly believed there was a pink elephant sitting in my sock-drawer, I could say "to me, that pink elephant is as real as 2+2=4".  It's a personal statement referring to a personal journey.  

You've taken it much too literally, and thought of it as a blanket statement to all that 2+2=God!  And that's just an illogical step to take, in my opinion.

Robbie, In all fairness i did take this as  personal  opinion  and my posts reflects this .....this is the  post that started us down this path.....

son quotes:
Sheri,

I am not seeking to convert anyone. I am doing the same thing everyone else is doing here, sharing what I know and what I think. If in sharing my knowledge, God uses that to reach someone, well that's just great, but it will be God doing it, not me.

But like I have said, if I know 2+2=4, I am not going to spend my time considering the possibility that 2+2=3.


It does  seem that to son is inferring that  god is a fact so much so that god uses him as a vessel for his knowledge which is 'factual' just  like 2+2=4 ...this can allude ot insinuating that god is provable.. so I am dialoging with him to establish clarity, bascailly....


QUOTE (Supra Sheri @ Jul 6 2008, 03:02 PM) linked-imagewonderful son .... for me .I see that 2 plus 2 is how we have defined it based on need and for one (me) that questions this is amazing, cuz it colors my adventure i call life with wonder and delight and so many questions that lead to more questions and the possiblity i call life...........and the sheer joy of engaging in the possibilitys i would feel as if i am going against my naturalness of change if I closed the door on considering the possibilitys........but for some this works for them,,just not me.....

Son Quotes:
Sure, it's wonderful to consider possibilities, it's why I love science fiction. But some possibilities, like 2+2=anything other than 4 although interesting, just don't stand up to what we experience. I can consider 2+2=5 for years and it won't change the fact that 2+2=4, so why spend the time with that possibility when there are others much more interesting. It's the same, for me, with God. Yes, I can consider the possibility that there is no god, because I have an imagination. But really,



son quotes further :" since I know there is God, it's just an exercise in imagination to consider otherwise. Since "I know" how He established the personal link with me, I can consider other possibilities, but they are again just exercises in wild imagination..."

now maybe it is me but  how does  he know that god is a fact and how he established this personal  link with son.. ....thas my question....

I have been asking and asking  perhaps you can answer this.....

( I have  no interest in being right  actually to be mistaken is a win win for me because  I am  interested in learning  and growing in my understandings....).

Edited by Supra Sheri, 09 July 2008 - 05:05 PM.


#22    Sherapy

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 05:13 PM

[quote name='MissMelsWell' date='Jul 9 2008, 09:46 AM' post='2385182']
This thread is kooky... but that aside.

I believe that all people have varying abilities to "hear" God.

People like Sheri have no ability.

People like myself have some ability

People like Irish might be a good example of someone who has huge ability.

So, anyone who has even the smallest amount of ability believe God to be fact. Those who have no ability at all like Sheri and others, are confused and probably have every right to be confused. And will remain confused.

It's just the way it is from my point of view.

thanks for your input....

@ irish thanks for yours also...always a delight to  read....

Edited by Supra Sheri, 09 July 2008 - 05:14 PM.


#23    Shaftsbury

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 05:15 PM

Paranoid Android on Jul 9 2008, 10:41 AM, said:

I'm sorry, but I don't understand the question.  What is this "sliding scale" of which you speak?  Could you elaborate.  Thanks,


It's not so much a question as an observation, and like I said it only relates to some believers.


When evidence is brought up that conflicts with their beliefs they require you to have a certainty of 100% before they will accept it as fact.

However the same individual will consider anecdotal evidence as "fact" when used to support their beliefs, even when that evidence can not be verified.










"He hath need of his wits who wanders wide,
aught simple will serve at home;
but a gazing-stock is the fool who sits
mid the wise, and nothing knows."

from the Elder or Poetic Edda

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#24    the14u2cee

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 05:20 PM

THE14U2CEE<<<<<<<<<<< not a scientist but understands the point of 2x2=4    even though i don't believe in the God you know exists, i believe that there is a higher  power in my own opinion.  

May i use that analogy in my own words:  The love for my Daughter's 2x2=4, you can't see my love but it is definitely there.   wub.gif
Kind of like the wind.


#25    Sherapy

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 05:25 PM

[quote name='Shaftsbury' date='Jul 9 2008, 10:15 AM' post='2385237']
It's not so much a question as an observation, and like I said it only relates to some believers.


When evidence is brought up that conflicts with their beliefs they require you to have a certainty of 100% before they will accept it as fact.

However the same individual will consider anecdotal evidence as "fact" when used to support their beliefs, even when that evidence can not be verified.


indeed Shaft...I am a stickler for soundness....


nothing is above reproach or rigorous   critical analysis in my posit......all my 'beleifs' undergo a scrutinty  for soundness and pragmatism......quality and value.....I need to know why i hold the beleifs i hold what  are my reasons and are they adequate and applicable  for everyday use.....  if I am gonna recommend that someone should  live as I do  I would  want to  present a well thought  out posit ....


I don't give a free pass to any of my beleifs nor would  i ask another to take anyhting I said on face value or faulty premises.........


.


#26    fullywired

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 05:46 PM

Religious experience.

A great number of people “feel” that there is a “God”. Once again, using Ockham’s razor, most feelings related to the supernatural are effectively explained by childhood indoctrination. This is irrefutably supported by observation of other cultures. However, there are people who actually experience powerful perceptions of connection to a “higher plane”.

These feelings are expressions of the way we think and can be altered by damage to the neuronic structure, physical exertion, religious fervour, by inadequate nutrition, by heat/cold and by drugs and other toxins. The brain can modify in function if we have a cold or flu, genetic flaw or if we are in pain and possibly for many other reasons.

Brains are in a continual state of change of sequence of firings. If, for example, too much carbon dioxide invades the hypothalamus, the result can be what is known as a mystical or religious experience and other effects. People can really believe they are in contact with a higher plane when this happens, and that higher plane parallels the existing cultural expectations of the location of that person. Bertrand Russell, famous Atheist, philosopher, writer and all round good guy could bring this condition on at will, once when he was riding his pushbike. LSD and other drugs can give similar effects.

It is not that long ago that the association between epilepsy and experiencing visions was unknown. Joan of Arc suffered from Temporal Lobe epilepsy, and she fought and died for her illusions. This is another example of the intricate workings of the brain.

   The following extract is of interest along these lines:

  From "Beginning the World" by Karen Armstrong - former nun.

"My neurologist once told me that people with temporal lobe epilepsy are very often intensely religious. Certainly just before I have a grand mal fit I have a 'vision' of such peace, joy and significance that I can only call it God. What does this say about the whole nature of religious vision? Certain episodes in the lives of the saints have acquired a new meaning for me. When Theresa of Avila had her three-day vision of hell, was she simply having a temporal lobe attack? The horrors she saw are similar to those I have experienced, but in her case informed by the religious imagery of her time. Like other saints who have 'seen' hell she describes an appalling stench, which is part of an epileptic aura. Is it possible that the feeling I have had all my life that something - God, perhaps? - is just over the horizon, something unimaginable but almost tangibly present, is simply the result of an electrical irregularity in my brain? It is a question that can't yet be answered, unless it be that God, if He exists, could have created us with that capacity for Him, glimpsed at only when the brain is convulsed. What I can say, however, is that if my 'visions' have sometimes let me into 'Hell' they have also given me possible intimations of a Heaven, which I would not have been without."

The question has to be asked, what relationship to a higher plane is one that is culturally dependant and only happens when the brain is interfered with in some manner? A further question; is it fair play by a higher entity or whatever, to only allow this to happen to a minority of people with abnormalities of, or with the induction of, foreign matter into the brain? A further question is, would some entity expect that we should take any notice of them and follow the Joan of Arc’s to our deaths?

It would be prudent at the least to suspect these reported 'otherworldly' adventures. Some people may well think they are real, but we should know better than believing them to be any more than the brain responding to inputs beyond what can be classed as normal.

I would add here, the evidence seems to be overwhelming that hallucination is a common occurrence, and using Ockham’s razor, the most likely cause is not a higher plane. Of course, we can never know for sure, but a higher plane would not expect the rest of us to accept that everyone who has a brain surge to be in direct contact with it. If people believe they have made contact, then so be it. Conversely, if the other mentioned explanations are not considered and evaluated to be a possible cause, then their story should be automatically accepted as incredulous.
http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/doesgodexist.htm


Posted Image  



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-------Buddha (563 - 483 BC)

#27    Agent. Mulder

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 05:53 PM

wait, so what if i say 2+2=4, that means there is No god.
does it work that way too? i cant see why not

the truth is out there....

#28    Sherapy

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 05:55 PM

Agent. Mulder on Jul 9 2008, 10:53 AM, said:

wait, so what if i say 2+2=4, that means there is No god.
does it work that way too? i cant see why not

well its seems you may not be far off AM it alludes to this IMO  because  2+2=4 infers the law of closure  not 'god'(s).....IMO

Edited by Supra Sheri, 09 July 2008 - 06:06 PM.


#29    Sherapy

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 06:02 PM

fullywired on Jul 9 2008, 10:46 AM, said:

Religious experience.

A great number of people "feel" that there is a "God". Once again, using Ockham's razor, most feelings related to the supernatural are effectively explained by childhood indoctrination. This is irrefutably supported by observation of other cultures. However, there are people who actually experience powerful perceptions of connection to a "higher plane".

These feelings are expressions of the way we think and can be altered by damage to the neuronic structure, physical exertion, religious fervour, by inadequate nutrition, by heat/cold and by drugs and other toxins. The brain can modify in function if we have a cold or flu, genetic flaw or if we are in pain and possibly for many other reasons.

Brains are in a continual state of change of sequence of firings. If, for example, too much carbon dioxide invades the hypothalamus, the result can be what is known as a mystical or religious experience and other effects. People can really believe they are in contact with a higher plane when this happens, and that higher plane parallels the existing cultural expectations of the location of that person. Bertrand Russell, famous Atheist, philosopher, writer and all round good guy could bring this condition on at will, once when he was riding his pushbike. LSD and other drugs can give similar effects.

It is not that long ago that the association between epilepsy and experiencing visions was unknown. Joan of Arc suffered from Temporal Lobe epilepsy, and she fought and died for her illusions. This is another example of the intricate workings of the brain.

   The following extract is of interest along these lines:

  From "Beginning the World" by Karen Armstrong - former nun.

"My neurologist once told me that people with temporal lobe epilepsy are very often intensely religious. Certainly just before I have a grand mal fit I have a 'vision' of such peace, joy and significance that I can only call it God. What does this say about the whole nature of religious vision? Certain episodes in the lives of the saints have acquired a new meaning for me. When Theresa of Avila had her three-day vision of hell, was she simply having a temporal lobe attack? The horrors she saw are similar to those I have experienced, but in her case informed by the religious imagery of her time. Like other saints who have 'seen' hell she describes an appalling stench, which is part of an epileptic aura. Is it possible that the feeling I have had all my life that something - God, perhaps? - is just over the horizon, something unimaginable but almost tangibly present, is simply the result of an electrical irregularity in my brain? It is a question that can't yet be answered, unless it be that God, if He exists, could have created us with that capacity for Him, glimpsed at only when the brain is convulsed. What I can say, however, is that if my 'visions' have sometimes let me into 'Hell' they have also given me possible intimations of a Heaven, which I would not have been without."

The question has to be asked, what relationship to a higher plane is one that is culturally dependant and only happens when the brain is interfered with in some manner? A further question; is it fair play by a higher entity or whatever, to only allow this to happen to a minority of people with abnormalities of, or with the induction of, foreign matter into the brain? A further question is, would some entity expect that we should take any notice of them and follow the Joan of Arc's to our deaths?

It would be prudent at the least to suspect these reported 'otherworldly' adventures. Some people may well think they are real, but we should know better than believing them to be any more than the brain responding to inputs beyond what can be classed as normal.

I would add here, the evidence seems to be overwhelming that hallucination is a common occurrence, and using Ockham's razor, the most likely cause is not a higher plane. Of course, we can never know for sure, but a higher plane would not expect the rest of us to accept that everyone who has a brain surge to be in direct contact with it. If people believe they have made contact, then so be it. Conversely, if the other mentioned explanations are not considered and evaluated to be a possible cause, then their story should be automatically accepted as incredulous.
http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/doesgodexist.htm

thankyou for posting this FW.....


I want to  add also that its a common  claim that precogs and stuff are used to support a knowing god "posit"  



there are tons and tons of studies like these...about 1700 of them just from one scientist alone.

http://mv.lycaeum.org/M2/persinger.html

These are just a handful, and one doesn't necessarily have to have a neurological condition to experience precog dreams and stuff.




..its interesting IMO....

Edited by Supra Sheri, 09 July 2008 - 06:05 PM.


#30    Irish

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 06:07 PM

How valuable is personal truth and experience? Although many would deny the fact that we all rely on others life’s experiences and are therefore we have FAITH in others experiences in life. It is faith up until we experience it for ourselves and then in our minds it now a fact but in reality it may not be fact as others may have not had the same experience! As an example an astronaut can only relate his experiences to you, who have never traveled in space and you as an individual have three choices in which to form an opinion.
1. Except his/her testimony as reliable personal experience. (Belief that is faith based on a few facts)
2. Reject his/her testimony as unreliable. (Denial of a personal truth and experience)
3. Acquire the experience for yourself and become an astronaut. (Your very own personal truth for others to except or reject)

The common denominator in all our beliefs is accepting and questioning what we believe is the truth. But what actually constitutes evidence of “the truth”. We as humans are very passionate about truth because the mirror of it consists of lies and deceit, something we all wish to avoid because deception equals self delusion and quite possibly self destruction.

Within the physical sciences we have a solid measure of what is considered proof within the ‘scientific method’ of repeated experiments that concur the same results every single time. Yet when we apply the scientific method toward our art, music, dance, literature, philosophy, politics and religion it becomes apparent that we often end up with many different ideals of truth that are of a personal understanding. Some end up concurring with the status quo and some end up within smaller groups of people that arrive at similar conclusions yet are considered to be out of the “norm” of conventional belief. While some individuals arrive at conclusions that are so ‘out there’ as others may consider them to be socially damaged or deranged. You probably know a few of them on these boards. rolleyes.gif

The truths within art, literature, philosophy, politics and religion are often very subjective toward the personal experience and understanding of truth that they become nothing more than individual opinions that are shared by many or just a few, and in some cases by them alone.

If the truth equals proof what constitute that “proof”? Personal truth and experience or evidence explained by those who seem to grasp it, scientists, wise men or clergy.

The most common sentence on UM is “I need proof” or “where is your proof?” In reality it would be extremely difficult for me to prove that I even exist in the physical world, blink.gif  let alone non human entities outside of our own experiences. Most will just accept the small evidence of my written words without question.

Truth is defined as evidence, but any good layer worth his salt will tell you that ‘evidence’ can and is often used by the plaintiff and defendant is subjective to their own needs and desired results.
Evidence has to be weighed by the individuals involved who intern lobbies others for their definition in order to strengthen their own beliefs. The opposite reaction is often not very desirable as it can shatter the individuals world view as well as turn their lives completely around. Yet at the same time the truth can be liberating, enlightening and rewarding.
To some people proof is good enough in the personal experience to others evidence must be agreed on by a majority of those we hold in esteem in order to be any kind of proof.

Some only accept evidence in the form of physical subjectiveness and often become entrapped within a paradigm of their own making. While others are more willing to explore the esoteric evidence of their own experience as well as others?

Irish

Most people do not want to know the truth they only want confirmation for what they think is truth.




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