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2+2=4 equates a certainty of god


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#721    MEATLOAF

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 07:36 PM

Agent. Mulder on Aug 4 2008, 04:00 AM, said:

its not really evidence at all. its more interpretation, and what you Think was heard on the recorder. funny how they only use Low quality ones as well to pick up the 'voices'.
its just like in a song, you dont know what theyre saying in it, but then someone says "oh, i think theyre saying ________ at that part". then the next time you listen to it "ooh, yeah. i hear theyre saying that now".
and then you find out its something Completely different.


Just because the voices are unintelligible doesn't mean they aren't there.  The fact of the matter is that a voice is there that wasn't there before, and this is decent evidence that spirits exist.  This is even better evidence when the voice is there in response to a question.  Not all EVPs are low quality as well;  there are more believable ones out there.  There are also decent photographs and videos of spirits as well.  The personal experiences in paranormal cases are also good evidence, as they are often less open to interpritation than a religious personal experience.  By this I mean that, if a chair picks itself up and flies accross the room in the same house where strange voices have been heard and apparitions have been seen, then the experience clearly suggests the presence of a paranormal entitiy of some sort.


#722    Agent. Mulder

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 08:01 PM

MEATLOAF on Aug 3 2008, 07:36 PM, said:

Just because the voices are unintelligible doesn't mean they aren't there.  The fact of the matter is that a voice is there that wasn't there before, and this is decent evidence that spirits exist.  This is even better evidence when the voice is there in response to a question.  Not all EVPs are low quality as well;  there are more believable ones out there.  There are also decent photographs and videos of spirits as well.  The personal experiences in paranormal cases are also good evidence, as they are often less open to interpritation than a religious personal experience.  By this I mean that, if a chair picks itself up and flies accross the room in the same house where strange voices have been heard and apparitions have been seen, then the experience clearly suggests the presence of a paranormal entitiy of some sort.


dude, you can get Anything with a low quality, s****y mic. thats why they use the crappy ones, and not good one. because the real ones dont pick up static crap, that people equate to voices.
and theres a BIG difference between and EVP and a poltergiest in the house. im sure you know that.
myexample above, with the song, is what happens in most cases. sorry.
despite some may seem 'genuine'

the truth is out there....

#723    Sherapy

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 08:07 PM

marabod on Aug 2 2008, 08:34 PM, said:

The roots of Christianity may be untrue, but Christianity exists objectively, its beliefs can be clearly formulated and its followers counted - means Christianity itself is an absolute truth and its existance is a scientific fact. I am not touching the contents, just the matrix itself. This is actually a proof that any subjective belief can be shared and made objective to a degree, as the subject of Christianity is an obvious part of the Objective world - even the Muslims admit that Christianity exists, so far only Mormons are expressing the doubts.


marabond I do see what  you are saying in a  leap to faith sort of way...... , yet on this thread( see link)  3 christians  (PA, misswells and rosewin)  are arguing that the beleifs of christianity can't  be so clearly formulated and its followers not so easily detected based on evidence........perhaps the mormons are on to something....  its not so 'absolute' according to their own words....


http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...p;#entry2426917

Edited by Tangerine Sheri, 03 August 2008 - 08:21 PM.




#724    Dr. D

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 08:15 PM

Tangerine Sheri on Aug 3 2008, 09:07 PM, said:

marabond I do see what  you are saying would   concur  to a degree... , yet on this thread( see link)  3 christians  (PA, misswells and rosewin)  are arguing that the beleifs of christianity can't  be so clearly formulated and its followers not so easily detected based on evidence........perhaps the mormons are on to something....  its not so 'absolute' according to their own words....


http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...p;#entry2426917


If absolute truth is meant to include talking animals, wizards, witches, demons, sticks turning into snakes, food falling from the sky, people walking on water, and all sorts of magical, absurd and primitive stories  . . . . I'll stick to my point that absolutes don't exist.


#725    Sherapy

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 08:25 PM

Dr. D on Aug 3 2008, 01:15 PM, said:

If absolute truth is meant to include talking animals, wizards, witches, demons, sticks turning into snakes, food falling from the sky, people walking on water, and all sorts of magical, absurd and primitive stories  . . . . I'll stick to my point that absolutes don't exist.


i know, i know, I can't  get past the talking snake or the poison apple  or the world was spoken in to being in  6 days or  noah the  100 year old drunkard  built an ark to house the whole universe...or chicks  tunrig to salt  or im. dietys  ......etc etc  


  I am with you I am not signing on any dotted lines for absolutes, any time  soon...i declare a irish verdict...

Edited by Tangerine Sheri, 03 August 2008 - 08:28 PM.




#726    Leonardo

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 08:30 PM

MEATLOAF on Aug 2 2008, 10:41 AM, said:

What I was stating is that there is actual evidence beyond faith that would lead one to believe in a soul.  There is actual evidence of things that exist only in spirit.


No, there isn't. If you are referring to 'ghosts', there is no evidence such apparitions (if they exist) were/are human (which the soul is meant to be a part of). If you are referring to the 'evidence' of mediums etc, then this is personal, subjective and has never been conclusively proved to involve any actual connection/communication with a spirit.

So there is no evidence, there is only conjecture.

If you are referring to personal experience, then I would suggest that the person has experienced something but, like those who claim to have 'personally experienced God' there can be no verification of such a claim - even for the claimant. Concepts such as 'soul' and 'God' are so ingrained in our imagination through literature and culture, that any independent 'experience' of such must automatically be called into question as the claimant being led by what they have read/heard previously about such concepts. Any claim of personal experience of soul/God is based on (and perhaps led by) the description of a subjective experience of another.

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#727    MARAB0D

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 09:07 PM

Tangerine Sheri on Aug 4 2008, 08:25 AM, said:

i know, i know, I can't  get past the talking snake or the poison apple  or the world was spoken in to being in  6 days or  noah the  100 year old drunkard  built an ark to house the whole universe...or chicks  tunrig to salt  or im. dietys  ......etc etc  


  I am with you I am not signing on any dotted lines for absolutes, any time  soon...i declare a irish verdict...


Christianity does not necessarily believe in snake sticks and 6 days, neither it believes in Hell or Devil! The confusion here come from blending Christianity with the marginal novelty cults, so popular in USA - but what happens in the rest of the world is different. Worldwide the beliefs of Christianity are pretty well structured and clearly formulated in Nicene Creed, followed by literally hundreds of millions of people. For the last 1600 years these beliefs never changed and for mainstream Christianity a Christian is not who agrees to believe in Christ, but the one who says "yes" to all points of the Creed, which is a Christian Symbol of Faith. So, I was talking about those mainstream Christianity, not about the sects. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11049a.htm

Quote

We believe (I believe) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen."

As approved in amplified form at the Council of Constantinople (381), it is the profession of the Christian Faith common to the Catholic Church, to all the Eastern Churches separated from Rome, and to most of the Protestant denominations.


So this is it - the mainstream Christianity defines itself through this Creed; what the minority cults and sects define themselves through, I have no idea, some may believe Christ was a frog. Christians of different denominations can have some specific concepts in theology and some specific beliefs, but none of them defines their religion except the one I posted. Therefore, the beliefs of Christianity are clearly formulated and as exists objectively.


#728    Sherapy

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 09:19 PM

marabod on Aug 3 2008, 02:07 PM, said:

Christianity does not necessarily believe in snake sticks and 6 days, neither it believes in Hell or Devil! The confusion here come from blending Christianity with the marginal novelty cults, so popular in USA - but what happens in the rest of the world is different. Worldwide the beliefs of Christianity are pretty well structured and clearly formulated in Nicene Creed, followed by literally hundreds of millions of people. For the last 1600 years these beliefs never changed and for mainstream Christianity a Christian is not who agrees to believe in Christ, but the one who says "yes" to all points of the Creed, which is a Christian Symbol of Faith. So, I was talking about those mainstream Christianity, not about the sects. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11049a.htm



So this is it - the mainstream Christianity defines itself through this Creed; what the minority cults and sects define themselves through, I have no idea, some may believe Christ was a frog. Christians of different denominations can have some specific concepts in theology and some specific beliefs, but none of them defines their religion except the one I posted. Therefore, the beliefs of Christianity are clearly formulated and as exists objectively.

.... as long as there  are alternates we can't  call an absolute..

Edited by Tangerine Sheri, 03 August 2008 - 09:22 PM.




#729    MEATLOAF

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 09:32 PM

Leonardo on Aug 4 2008, 06:30 AM, said:

No, there isn't. If you are referring to 'ghosts', there is no evidence such apparitions (if they exist) were/are human (which the soul is meant to be a part of). If you are referring to the 'evidence' of mediums etc, then this is personal, subjective and has never been conclusively proved to involve any actual connection/communication with a spirit.

So there is no evidence, there is only conjecture.

If you are referring to personal experience, then I would suggest that the person has experienced something but, like those who claim to have 'personally experienced God' there can be no verification of such a claim - even for the claimant. Concepts such as 'soul' and 'God' are so ingrained in our imagination through literature and culture, that any independent 'experience' of such must automatically be called into question as the claimant being led by what they have read/heard previously about such concepts. Any claim of personal experience of soul/God is based on (and perhaps led by) the description of a subjective experience of another.


While I agree that some experiences can be manipulated or misinterpreted because of the human fascination with God and souls, I must object to your statement regarding evidence.

The fact that apparitions tend to take human form and tend to speak in human voices and languages is evidence enough that they are of human origin.  My belief regarding ghosts is that they are the energy and emotions of an individual that are trapped on this Earth for some reason, but are separate from the soul of the individual.  I also believe that some ghosts are demonic.  The fact that ghosts are known to operate without needing a physical form and can be angered and or have the ability to choose their actions shows a high possiblity of spiritual beings exisiting.

Sheri, your statement about absolutes is exactly what I'm saying.  Humans lack the ability to know absolutes, even if we can come very close to them.  The alternatives within Christianity are all relative truths that various denominations accept because they believe them to be as close to the absolute truth that they can get.

Edited by MEATLOAF, 03 August 2008 - 09:39 PM.


#730    MARAB0D

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 09:56 PM

Tangerine Sheri on Aug 4 2008, 09:19 AM, said:

.... as long as there  are alternates we can't  call an absolute..


This is an argument about play on words. There is a solid religion, existing in the current form for 1600 years, which involves 82% (at least!) of all those in the world who calls themselves "Christians" - and there is a number of freelance sects with amorphous beliefs, which exist for no more than 200 years and also call themselves "Christians" totally accounting for maximum 18% of all who calls themselves "Christians"... How can this be an alternative? There easily can be 10-15% of people in the same USA who want it to become an islamic state - would you call them an alternative to mainstream and discard the Constitution according to which the mainstream lives?


#731    MARAB0D

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 10:04 PM

What I mean is that there is a trade name "christianity" and it has a copyright date and objective definition. If someone else is in breach of this copyright and also calls themselves a christian and you see this as an alternative, then my home made brew which I named coca-cola coke would be also an alternative? How about my home-made aspirin or worminator tablets - would you buy them? Hahaha - tomorrow I'll drop in to you and say I believe I am you really your hubby, not the one whom you thought being at work... Or I send you a private message, saying I am your boss and you were fired. Also alternatives!

Edited by marabod, 03 August 2008 - 10:08 PM.


#732    Jor-el

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 10:38 PM

Tangerine Sheri on Aug 3 2008, 09:25 PM, said:

i know, i know, I can't  get past the talking snake or the poison apple  or the world was spoken in to being in  6 days or  noah the  100 year old drunkard  built an ark to house the whole universe...or chicks  tunrig to salt  or im. dietys  ......etc etc  


  I am with you I am not signing on any dotted lines for absolutes, any time  soon...i declare a irish verdict...


Sorry, no talking snakes in the bible, unless you want to stay at the kindergarten level in scripture. Which is where most people are anyways.

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#733    churchanddestroy

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 12:01 AM

Jor-el on Aug 3 2008, 05:38 PM, said:

Sorry, no talking snakes in the bible, unless you want to stay at the kindergarten level in scripture. Which is where most people are anyways.

3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God actually say, ‘You [1] shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?” 2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, 3 but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’” 4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Sounds like a talking snake to me. Its pretty plain that the text says that the snake talked.

Heres another good one in the bible about taking animals:

22:28 And the LORD opened the mouth of the ***, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times? 29 And Balaam said unto the ***, Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee. 30 And the *** said unto Balaam, [Am] not I thine ***, upon which thou hast ridden ever since [I was] thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee? And he said, Nay.

Numbers 22:28-30. A donkey talks to Balaam.

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#734    Jor-el

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 12:09 AM

churchanddestroy on Aug 4 2008, 01:01 AM, said:

3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God actually say, ‘You [1] shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?” 2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, 3 but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’” 4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Sounds like a talking snake to me. Its pretty plain that the text says that the snake talked.

Heres another good one in the bible about taking animals:

22:28 And the LORD opened the mouth of the ***, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times? 29 And Balaam said unto the ***, Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee. 30 And the *** said unto Balaam, [Am] not I thine ***, upon which thou hast ridden ever since [I was] thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee? And he said, Nay.

Numbers 22:28-30. A donkey talks to Balaam.


Yep, kindegarten theology...

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#735    churchanddestroy

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 12:10 AM

Jor-el on Aug 3 2008, 07:09 PM, said:

Yep, kindegarten theology...

.... but its.... in the Bible.

Edit: Let me further clarify, you said there was no talking snake to be found in the Bible but there it is, Genesis three, the snake freaking talks. I'm not saying it actually happened like that, but it says, very plainly, that the snake talked. And a donkey too.

Edited by churchanddestroy, 04 August 2008 - 12:20 AM.

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